Recent threads here on AR comparing the two organizations and their conventions have touched lightly on the relative merits of SCI and similiar organizations. There are many comments praising SCI for its support of hunting and hunters. Really? Okay, I'll go ahead and ask the question. What has the SCI actually done for hunting, for hunting on public lands, and for the average hunter? Is Joe Sixpack, with his son beside him in his pickup, driving to Wyoming for a father/son antelope hunt really any better off?

Or is all about something else?

It's relatively easy to see how the NRA has protected the 2nd Amendment and gun ownership in general. One can do the research and find legislation both passed and defeated--to the benefit of gun owners--through the leadership and support of the NRA. By all accounts, the NRA seems to be transparent in its agenda, its business practices and its administrative costs. It's about the 2nd Amendment and gun ownership. It's not about the "business" of guns and gun sales.

Can the same be said for SCI? Certainly the "business" of hunting and the hunting industry have benefited greatly from SCI. But is the average hunter, the guy who does not spend the money it takes to go to Africa better off? Have his opportunities to hunt grown? In short, is there a way we can quantify what SCI has done for hunting? I don't know the answer.

For the record, I am an SCI member. I hunt Africa, and I attend the conventions. But I would do so without SCI. I'm not sure how my opportunites to pursue my passion are any greater than they would otherwise be.

Not picking a fight. Just asking.

TWL,

I appreciate you asking the question, for one. And I certainly don't have the answer. I repeatedly hear that SCI is "the best", or their commitment to hunting is "obvious", yet concrete actions seem to be hard to find. Several PH's from Africa on this board claim to see nothing of / from SCI in Africa, so your view may not be isolated to the US.

I would actually like to believe that SCI is "First for Hunters", and is actually doing something to promote hunting. The only thing I can recall is they did lobby to lift the Polar Bear import ban (unsucessfully). I appreciate that effort.

I do not currently belong to SCI. I have been disgusted with some of their ethics and positions. I might someday consider re-joining, who knows?

For those of you insiders - Please post the concrete examples of their actions for all to see.

Bill

At the risk of not specifically answering the question I'd like to make a general observation about what SCI and DSC does for all hunting. Both organizations keep hunting and the shooting sports in the news letting people know that a lot of average folks still do use guns for sport and we are not just a fringe group of weirdos with guns. I think if the none gun people know that hunting and shooting is alive and well for all classes of people they may be more likely to think before voting to take away our gun rights and ultimately hunting itself. When you look at it this way it doesn't really matter what your financial situation may be or whether you buy hunting or are a DIY only hunter.

I also would like to make a comment on all the pro and con comments particularly on SCI and to a leeser degree with DSC. If you don't like SCI and or DSC and find the whole thing too expensive or tickling your sensibilities then don't participate. Ithink that is a mistake but it definitely is a choice. BUT without SCI you would not have the most incredible hunting shows on the planet available. You would not be able to talk to multiple operators offering whatever hunt you could think of in one venue. For the HO's even though they bitch about the cost they know it is a necessity for them to be there to promote their business. Simply hunting is a business and business needs to generate money to survive so if people associated with hunting are not making money hunting will disappear. Enjoy what SCI and DSC provide and get off the moral high road.

Mark

You've got to be shitting me! This is like a bad dream.



Before I go crazy please read the pages and pages from the lion conservation thread.

Brett

Personally -- this is a very valid question and one that should be answered --- I have been involved is several of the various wildlife enhancement organizations including DU- Elk Foundation -- etc -------During my tenure with these various organizations -- especially the Elk foundation -- I raised a considerable amount of money -- when I started questioning in detail where and how the money was being spent things got pretty gray and then very ugly -- I no longer participate in the fund raising aspects of these organizations --- I will be a dues paying member but -- will not go out and raise the green.

So just where does all the SCI money go?? And what have they done for Joe the Hunter??

This is not beating a dead horse -- but – a very valid question.
G

This horse was just beat for 5 freaking pages without anyone changing there mind and mostly people posting the same damn statement reworded 10 or 15 times. Please feel free to read the lion conservation thread before you ask the same questions over and over.

Brett

As I compose this I wonder if I'm simply contributing to some 'Internet entertainment' or not.

I'm Joe the Hunter. My next scheduled hunt is hunting rabbits with beagles. I'm a Life Member of the NRA and SCI (and had to budget to become so). I am not the SCI elite and consider myself a 'chapter grunt'.

SCI indeeds brings a lot to the table. Because of SCI little 'ol me as had the opportunity to sit face-to-face with many elected officials and those wanting to be elected and discuss hunting issues. For starters, I don't apologize for being a hunter. Me and mine are like minded and we do vote.

Some of my fellow SCI Chapter members get phone calls from members of the U.S. Congress. When they go to Washington DC they are promptly invited into their offices.

SCI ain't perfect but show me where more dedicated hunters put their money where there mouth is and I'm in.

Matt just said it all. He and I are friends and are from similar backgrounds. We are both working class guys from blue collar backgrounds. We would have never met except for SCI and AR. SCI has a lot of well to do elite. It also has many many more of the rest of us. You might be surprised to find that even many of "the elite" come from working class backgrounds and have only gotten to where they are through hard work and sacrifice. There is more in common here than not. Even so, I digress. SCI has given me input and a voice where I had none before.

Isn't funny how the SCI cheerleaders are refusing to give any concrete answers?

Those who are asking the questions did not put SCI in the position they are in.

They did. With all the very vague claims we get of what they are actually doing for us as hunters.

I think we've all already discovered who stands on what side of the fence with regard to donations/ethics/work achieved etc etc. Some think SCI are the best thing since sliced bread and others think they're as much use as a one legged man at an arse kicking party..... and never the twain shall meet. Ah well, things ain't gonna change on that one!

However, with regard to Mark's comments of:

'BUT without SCI you would not have the most incredible hunting shows on the planet available. You would not be able to talk to multiple operators offering whatever hunt you could think of in one venue. For the HO's even though they bitch about the cost they know it is a necessity for them to be there to promote their business'

On the surface, that's quite correct, but if you stop to think about it, you can do everything except meet the guys face to face in the privacy and comfort of your own home and at the time of your choice via the internet nowadays. - Hell, with a camera on your PC, you can even look the guy in the eye.

There's also some great online research tools out there to help you research a suitable hunt for your own particular needs, tastes and finances.

Regarding the outfitters. Certainly there's no doubt that most feel they do need to attend, but they can also choose, if they wish, to use the internet in the same way as the client if he has the inclination. - Admittedly, very few have the courage not to attend the convention circuit, but my guess is that will slowly change and if this current financial situation continues, my guess is that attitude may well accelerate as time goes goes on.

Taking it a step further, let's look at costs for a moment. Although a lot of people would doubt this, the actual total costs of attending the convention circuit for someone based in Africa can very easily be well in excess of US$60K a year. That consists of things such as time away from your business, booths, furniture, fittings (which can cost a bloody fortune to keep up with the opposition) insurance, flights, hotels, entertaining clients etc etc etc. The list goes on and on.

Then consider that everyone has limited season to fill and the entire cost of that operation has to be divided between the clients that book and you'll see it adds up to a considerable amount to the cost of each safari. Then factor in the fact that all the game depts and every other bugger involved in the industry also attend and although some such as game depts etc might get free booths, they still have to pay everything else and that cost then has to be divided and added to their licencing/membership costs etc which is then passed onto the outfitter, who in turn have to pass it onto the client and so the story continues.

In other words, the hunter ends up paying for ALL of the things I've mentioned and a lot of things I've skipped......... so the next time you consider booking a hunt and you think it's a bit pricey, take a look at that glitzy SCI HQ and all the other shiny sales BS from the world and his dog that you see throughout the hunting convention season and try to remember that the hunter pays for it all eventually...... and that's one of the major reasons that your hunt is costing you soooooo much.

Also, remember that every donated hunt is actually 2 hunts to the outfitter. It's the one he donated and the other is the client who bought it that might otherwise have come to him direct. Also consider that any sensible person who wants to stay in the business for the longer term also has to factor in the 'Murphy rule' factor that says occasionally things happen that will result in low bookings for that year. Examples of that are 9/11, the war on terror and this credit crunch etc. When that happens, he still has the same overheads but a lower booking rate.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
You've got to be shitting me! This is like a bad dream.



Before I go crazy please read the pages and pages from the lion conservation thread.

Brett

If you do not want to read this thread again then DONT, it takes nothing away from your day by not reading it.

For some people they actually have a pretty unbiase view on it and are not in it upto their chins and would like to see some hard facts,

Ditto Steve

My opinion on SCI will give most of the squad a heart attack - hell it is a very clever/shrude orginisation. Shit if I could join at the top ranks it would be like a wet dream, I could go hunting just about everyday of my life and not have to worry about paying a dime, plus Id be seen as a hero.

Dallas and Reno were both good shows but hell expensive for a small company like mine to afford - I had to donate a charter flight of $6500 to get into Reno, ontop of booth costs. but will I go back - YES - to me it is about being at the one place where you can get to all the outfitters / PH / Booking Agents / Etc in the same area. call it a much needed evil.hell the markets have gone for a ball of sh1t and the first thing to go out the window are charter flights. at this point in time I have written off the $15 000 that it cost to go as a much needed exercise - I cannot hope to recover that money and still try and make a Rand or two profit in the end off of a 15% mark-up????

As for what they do for hunters ummm ahhhh - I was there to witness an auction for two hunters to go hunting with two physically challenged chaps at $ 100 000 USD .

What they will do with that money is another question, I would like to see it put aside and for them to say Right - out of all of the money that we raise at the shows, the largest portion of it comes from the guys out of Africa. Lets take same portion of African guys who contribute and put that same portion of the profits from the show aside into an account, we can then get the whole lot of African guys to vote on what project they would like to have it spent on! Most of them would probably go with the lion project, the year after anti-poaching as never seen before, etc. Same approach to guys in Argentinia / Spain / Australia. Insted of you getting points to get a better booth by the size of the profit SCI makes off you, those points should be allocated to the Outfitters Project where the more points you get, the more cash you get for the above cause.

By doing that SCI will secure continued support and even more so from guys who do not come out to the shows at this point in time.

Steve - if you knew that a fair percentage of your contribution (Donar hunt or cash) to SCI would be put straight back into a project that you and your colleuges in your proffession choose - would you then go through to SCI?

quote:

Originally posted by .458Aubs:
Steve - if you knew that a fair percentage of your contribution (Donar hunt or cash) to SCI would be put straight back into a project that you and your colleuges in your proffession choose - would you then go through to SCI?

Buddy, it's different for us because we have what is largely a niche market and we sell a high percentage of our seasons by recommendation, repeat bookings and web sales, so we'd only have a low percentage of our season to sell at the convention and the cost of attending doesn't really make it a viable proposition for us to go. - Admittedly, it's a lot of fun and it's fantastic to see old and new friends, clients and ordinary members, but it does have to be considered from a business point of view as well........... so would I go if I saw SCI actually doing something I approve of with all that money? - Probably not.

However, I would have a lot more respect for the organisation and a lot more understanding of the viability of attending the convention circuit for most people.

Steve,
Saeed,

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Steve,
Saeed,

Die Ou jagter,

I can assure you it does NOT give me any pleasure to ask these questions.

But the facts remain we are NOT getting any answers for what I certainly consider legitemate questions regarding the behaviour of SCI's management.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
This horse was just beat for 5 freaking pages without anyone changing there mind and mostly people posting the same damn statement reworded 10 or 15 times. Please feel free to read the lion conservation thread before you ask the same questions over and over.

Brett[/QUOTE]

Brett --- The question is the same as it started – and still has not been answered – where does the green go???? simple as that! --- and by the way --- I have better things to do than read 5 pages of the same thing!

I would like to think that the money raised is going to items and projects that we as hunters in general and as occasional hunters in Africa would be comfortable with--- I really hope that is the case!

It would appear by your numerous posts in defense of SCI that you and D O J are flag bearers for SCI --- I applaud you for your efforts as groups such as SCI desperately need your support on all fronts. Do not get me wrong -- I am a member or SCI and attend their conventions although will not be going to Reno anymore for the reasons noted elsewhere – will I still support them locally and nationally --- in a word yes! --- but only with the hope that my $’s are in some way going to support hunting --- that is the goal I believe.

G

The appropriate question has been raised by Woodmnctry: "where does the green go?"

If outfitters are shaken down by SCI to get booth space I strongly disagree with this.

The question is: does the leadership of SCI profit personally from the shakedowns? Worded differently, do these people get free trip (hunts) to an area and have their picture taken giving a tractor or clothing to a local village?

If any African posters know of such incidents it would be nice to hear.

If you want to look where the money goes and how much,, you can go to the SCI website and look at their IRS form 990. I hope you're good with numbers and have a high speed connection. I always say,,, follow the money,,Almost all organizations must file this form and it is open to the public.drwes

I'm frankly amazed that we don't have any SCI elites on this forum to defend themselves. Are they too busy hunting sheep in Mongolia?

Saeed, why bring the questions here take them to SCI. I support SCI, but I am not privey to their inter workings.

FWIW here is the verbage on the SCI website on their work on Government affairs.

For over 30 years, SCI’s mission has been to protect and expand the freedom to hunt, instituting sustainable use conservation worldwide while protecting hunting heritage. To that end, SCI is involved at all levels of government – from state and local to national and international.
The staff and lobbyists, based in Washington, D.C., carry the voice of the hunter into the halls of Congress, the state legislatures, courts and international forums such as The Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species, or CITES.
SCI chapters in the U.S., with the assistance of the Government Affairs Department, get involved with state legislative and regulatory issues, with federal plans that affect management, conservation and hunting access on public lands, as well as national legislative issues.
SCI is fighting in courts throughout the country to support and defend hunting as a recreational opportunity, a wildlife management strategy and a conservation tool.
Because its advocacy is firmly rooted in sound science of wildlife conservation, SCI holds a credible position in the hunting and conservation community. The Conservation Department is staffed by the SCI Foundation, and works closely with chapters, staff and members to meet this challenge.

Some of the above might not be apparent to Joe the Hunter. Personally I feel that we need some kind of voice with politicians everywhere and I don't see any other organization to do this.
BTW I emailed a link to this topic to SCI HQ so we'll see if they respond.

quote:

Originally posted by drwes:
If you want to look where the money goes and how much,, you can go to the SCI website and look at their IRS form 990. I hope you're good with numbers and have a high speed connection. I always say,,, follow the money,,Almost all organizations must file this form and it is open to the public.drwes

I did that already. And I am afraid I did not see much about what goes back to Africa.

Others have posted links to their annual reports, and in those I was able to find a grand total of 3 projects done in Africa, for what seems to be around $55,000. And at least one of those projects was in 2002.

I am an SCI doubter, and I only reluctantly continue to be a member in hopes that some small good, in spite of my doubts, comes of it. To the credit of someone in the SCI membership administration, the note stating my position which I attached to my dues check was passed on up to a Director who called me. We had a lengthy conversation in which he agreed with me on some of my concerns, FAILED to sell me on how much good they do for the average hunter, but at least he took time to hear me and try to answer, we parted on a friendly note. My doubts were unchanged, but it did prove there is at least one SCI guy who cared.

I am sure 99+% of the people associated with SCI care, it is just the ORGANIZATION no one likes duh.

Woodmanctry,

Since you won't be bothered to read even a page of the other thread then I'll repost something I already wrote because I don't feel like being bothered to repeat myself. The question of where their money goes has been answered. The questions remaining with Saeed Steve and others is how much do they actually do on the ground in Africa, beef with curtain proceedings at the convention, and their ethics or lack there of at times. I too agree with some of the ethical concerns raised and would like to know more about what they do on the ground in Africa, but I do not agree with some of the other concerns regarding the convention.



"Brooks,

We are speaking across points here. The organizations that you mentioned (TU, DU, RMEF, NWTF, ECT.) are solely grass roots organizations and as such are very visible. These kinds of organizations are wonderful and we need more of them here and in Africa. Comparing them to SCI is rather apples to oranges. SCI is a hunter and conservation advocacy group that performs some grass roots efforts (mostly through the local chapters) rather than a pure grass roots organization. I've attached my previous post from this thread that illustrates the difference between SCI and groups you have mentioned and the importance of groups like SCI. What they do may not be the sexy stuff that everyone can see and makes hearts warm, but that doesn't mean it's not important!

Brett


quote:
Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:


quote:
Originally posted by shakari:
I don't see how lobbying the US congress on hunting laws can affect the various countries in Africa. Those countries have their own Governments, Game Depts and hunting laws.


Steve,

I must strongly disagree with you on this point! Our government sends out BILLIONS of dollars every year to a multitude of African nations. Some of this aid is specifically designated for wildlife conservation and improvement of rural communities. Very recently there was an attempt by anti hunting organization to shut down this funding to hurt the hunting industries in these countries. SCI and other organizations worked to lobby congress to see that the funding continued. Lobbying is very expensive. Elected officials in our country really listen when it’s in their financial/political interest. I'm sure SCI spends staggering amounts of money on lobbying, but they have to.

I too would love to see more grass roots philanthropy by SCI, but let me put it to you this way:

Scenario 1 - SCI spends all its money on grass roots efforts to provide tangible benefits throughout the world (Africa included). They stop lobbying US and African countries on behalf of hunters. Anti-hunting organizations solely have the ears and pockets of politicians. Slowly hunting is restricted and limited until species are protected from hunting, countries and states closed to hunting, and bans are placed on importation until the hunting industry is crippled.

Scenario 2 - SCI spends time and money on litigation and lobbying to keep animals importable, open new species to imports, keep US funding to hunting and conservation programs in the US and the world over, lobbies CITES countries to vote down lion listing ect. SCI spends some of its money on tangible grass roots philanthropy. We complain about weather they REALLY do anything because we can't see it or there isn't a fancy sign saying "SCI Was Here".

Just my two cents.

Brett"

Again as posted previously please feel free to take the time to read their IRS 990 because it says where the money goes.

Brett

SCI is responsible for my interest in africa, at least to a great degree. Those of us who want to see certain goals met relative to local conservation, hunter access, and enlightened legislation tend to form local chapters ( there are two in my area).
These local chapters are where the rubber meets the road , while the SCI does the same thing at the national and international level.
When paying for my nine trips to africa I am constantly reminded of all the great things the safari companies are doing for the locals with my money. If the outfitters and ph's form their own branches of SCI they can accomplish some of the things SCI has not. The only thing Farrakhan ever said that I agreed with was, if you need a hand look on the end of your arm. If you get caught doing something worthwhile people will (almost) always help.
If you know of something better than SCI let us know and I will join and do my part. If you don't join us and lets make it better!

Frankly, this discussion is all very disturbing. I am a member of SCI. Thought that was a good thing. Am concerned about the negative comments.

lavaca, keep the faith most of the naysayers are from Arica and have provincal interests. After all it is SCI not SCA. There are chapters (well at least in RSA) in Africa and they should be doing the heavy lifting for their continent.

Blacktailer,

NO, they are not all out hunting sheep in Mongolia. Some of them are hunting Impala somewhere in Africa.

Rich
Buff Killer

Saeed, I must take exception. Be advised that I think very highly of you (that is probably an apology in advance) But that said, other than bringing a real big check book to the table....what have you done for hunter's rights? Have you met with Congressman here in the USA? What about fighting the fight for dove hunting here in Michigan? Or the issue of bear hunting with dogs? Or the moose restoration project? Or sponsoring a fishing derby for inner-city kids? How about the shooting range at the Salvation Army camp that a couple chapters just kicked in a couple grand for? Or pick up the tab for taking several Vets pheasant hunting?

Do not discount what the local chapters do with their 70% of what they raise.

'Nuff said

P.S. Guess I'm on a bit of a roll right now as my blood is up. I don't worship at the alter of SCI in Tucson. But I look around here locally and don't see anybody else doing what we (local chapters) are doing at the grass root level. Specifically, not being politically correct and apologizing for being hunters. I ask the question of any of you....what group can I become part of that will fight the fight here locally better than what the seven or eight active chapters of SCI here in Michigan do? (Don't tell me MUCC as they have gone way too green). Hopefully now I will shut up.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Norman:
Saeed, I must take exception. Be advised that I think very highly of you (that is probably an apology in advance) But that said, other than bringing a real big check book to the table....what have you done for hunter's rights? Have you met with Congressman here in the USA? What about fighting the fight for dove hunting here in Michigan? Or the issue of bear hunting with dogs? Or the moose restoration project? Or sponsoring a fishing derby for inner-city kids? How about the shooting range at the Salvation Army camp that a couple chapters just kicked in a couple grand for? Or pick up the tab for taking several Vets pheasant hunting?

Do not discount what the local chapters do with their 70% of what they raise.

'Nuff said

Matt,

You do not need to apologize to me or anyone one.


Our respect is mutual.

And I think may be I need to repeat what I have said before.

Neither me nor Steve have anything but respect for the individual SCI Chapters and members.

My problem is with how the SCI management goes about squeezing every penny out of the African hunting community, and THEY see almost nothing is put back into Africa.

We have been asking this very question right from the beginning, and despite all the links we were given, and my own search on the SCI website, we have NOT been able to find an answer.

Allright Saeed. It isnt often I disagree with you but this sure as hell is one of them. First I speak from a local chapter and not International perspective. Over the years Matt Norman and myself aas well as many others have been involved in the chapter politics. The club has donated nurmeuos amts of money to various hunting activities. We have specifically put money into lodges and facilities for communal land owners as well as individuals. This also includes new schools, new sewer and water technology that allows more efficient use. Better means of using fertilizer and herbicdies where necsarry. Studying the carrying capacity of the and with any give mix of plant and animals decide what should be the max carry cpacity and the max take each year. Calculate the amount to be taken off each year and perhaps change species ratios dependent on habitability and percent of effective crop use. In this case animals. It also includes building schools and medical facilities. On a larger scale it gives us political clout and recognition for what we have done. This face to face dialog with the politicians aqllows us to try and sell ou vie of how things shoud be, Usually there is amediation of all the competing ideas tha comes out looking nothing like when it started but is a compromise and agt least doable for all. Maybe you should spend time talking to the chapteer grunts who actually do 99% of the work on this stuff. I havent seen one gal og guy who hasnt opened not only their time and talent to work on these things but allso votes with their wallets and hard earned money that is freely given to the cause Some money does go to earn poitical access. It is the way of the world. It has allowed a lot of us average Joe types to become a force to be reconded with. A new well, medical facilites,water holes for stock. etc etc etc We get access through the organizations to those that are in power and can help effect change.
Im surre I missed a millions tings that get done quietly with little fanfare.We buy lland to put away for conservation. We donate to most any agency in need if we feel it is a propr=er use of money. Then terre are all the humanitarian prjects. Sennd non hunters to alws school so the can teach schoolkids. provide money for dozens of local eco projects. Even occassional buy a leg for a special ph who we all cr for dearly. then a lot of money goes into conservation of various types at numerous areas.I know you dont like SCI for some reason. I dont like a lot of what goes on myself at times but this is true with any organization. I think the awards and circles are sill from an ego stand point. However, those programs help generate a lot of money for other programs. So figure out what you are really pissed off at them about and lerts discuss it. You will find that most of us sre on the same page most of the time. Last dontforget all the jobs created directly and indirectly by the hunting community
As for what international does I at least have many o the same issues you do. That said if you arent part of the solution yu are part of problem. I got myself elected to
sci Detroit BOD for a couple of things. Some projrects I wnted done but more importanly to convinve other members that certain phs and outfitters should not be part of our entourage.
And you know what I got it changed. So if Just lowly ole me can do that think how much more one of your influence could accomplish.

Mike,

You've just proved our point. The work that you mention by your own admission was on a chapter level. Not on an organisation level and you also admit you have issues with what you call international, which I assume you mean the organisation?

Can I ask where the work (on the chapter level) you mentioned took place? Did you mean it took place in the US, in Africa or elsewhere?

all the above. What we could where we could. Some statside, some africa and some in south america as well as the northern teritorries. I dont like some of what I see at international that is correct. However, I will try to get in a position or put some else into a position to be able to affect change just as we did on the chapter level. My point is everyone shoud get involved and exert whatever pressure we can bring to bear. the change is only going to come from the inside and I dont see any changes being impllemented by people just settinng back and taking cheap shots. If you dont like it change it. Stand up and be counted. State your case of what and why it is wrong then offer possiblle solutions to fix it. I warn you though you wont get out that easy. You will find yourself putting more and more time into these projects.

Mike,

Much agreed! If you don't like it don't sit around and complain. Change it. There's nothing wrong with asking questions and holding people accountable, but at the end of the day you have to get something done not just ask questions and protest.

Brett

For those that sit and bitch here about SCI not "giving" enough to Africa should take a look at their African Chapters, see what you can do for/with them, create some new ones, etc.
Rest assured SCI "will" support those who try and help themselves through Chapter support and enhancement. Don't just sit and expect handouts because you believe that SCI is fleecing the African outfitters. It's been shown very clearly what "can" be done by an active Chapter. Give that a real try before you come bitching with your hand out. The fact too, that SCI sends a boatload of hunters to Africa each year through "their" efforts at the Convention and Chapter banquets has to amount to a dollar or two I would think. I know for a fact that the Northern New Mexico SCI Chapter sent a whole shipping container of books, clothing, medicines and such to the kids in Zim a couple of years back. Last I checked Zim was in Africa.

Socialism is not the real answer, even though we have that thought process going on in our Government as of late.

Larry Sellers

Larry,

No one is criticising the individual members or the chapters (no matter where they're located).

The question is about the monies gained by the organisation itself from the donations which are given directly to the organisation rather than the individual chapters and whether any of that money is ploughed back into Africa. - And if so, where and how?

Also, don't for a momemt think that if SCI were not there, the clients wouldn't come to Africa or that all clients are from the USA or all are SCI members........

Shakari,

I'm assuming your not an SCI member. I would invite you to join and be active in you local South African chapter. Fight from within for action and change for the better. You would be in a good location to work on the canned lion issue.

Brett