Planning an elephant hunt for next summer. First one and it will be a non-exportable type hunt.

I have a Searcy 470NE. I reload and I have been reloading for this rifle for a while now.

For the hunt should I use North Fork solids or stick with the Woodleigh solids that I have been reloading with and practicing with?

Most of what has been written here says that there is nothing wrong with the Woodleighs. Some of what has been written here says that the only way to be sure of straight line penetration is to use NFs.

I really don't care what bullets do in wet newspaper and pine boards. I want to know about elephants.

I asked that same question years ago before going on my first ele hunt. Someone replied that the elephant won't know the differance. I think that is still true, but I am by no means an expert. Shot placement will be the key, get a shot placement guide or buy Will's book.

BigB

I don't think that you'll experience one whit of real difference in choosing either one.

My preference has always been the Barnes solids, but I know that it's just force of habit and not wanting to change anything that works for me -- but my intellectual side knows that any of the high-end DG solids will do the job just as well.

quote:

buy Will's book.

This is the best advice on AR!

If it were I, I'd use the NF.

Buying Will's book is on my list of things to do. It will be nice to have something interesting to read while sitting in the deer stand this season.

Make sure you are wearing the seat belt in case you doze off!

2 things....Will's book for the shot placement photos and the explanations.... 2nd is Buzz Charlton's DVD on Elephant hunting....by far the best DVD on the subject. Shows the footage of the hunt and the shot, then shows actual shot point vs brain placement (too high, too low, etc). With those 2 resources committed to memory, placement will be instinctive when the time comes. I've seen folks walk up to a downed Elephant for the finishing shot, and STILL not hit the brain, because they really don't know where it is.

I have shot ten elephant, all were shot with Woodleighs. I am sure that either bullet will do the job. I am a big believer, however, in shooter confidence. If you are comfortable and confident in the Woodleighs, stick with them. I think the mental edge being a confident shooter will give you will probably far outweigh any difference in the bullets.

. . . and buy Bill's book and watch Buzz's DVD.

out of curiosity, and not to start a pissing contest between members, who on AR has the most jumbos? 10 seems like a lot to me, 10 more than I have. I'm just curious.

Red

Everybody says, "Buy Will's book!"

Can somebody tell me who Will is, the name of his book, and where to get one?

For the record, I have one bull elephant shot with 450 grain .458 North Fork solids.

Dago Red,

Not many here will tell you exactly how many they have taken. Some of those are the ones with the most.

I have used Woodleigh RN solids, Hornady DGS FN solids and NF FN solids on elephants. I have gotten more penetration from the FN solids than the RN solids. Saying that, the RN Woodleigh RN solids have given me more than enough penetration on elephants and buffalo on all types of shots. Since this will be your first elephant,chances are that you will want to take the first one with a heart/lung shot. It is what I would recommend. It is a safer shot,with less chance of error. Head shots are always difficult esp. for the beginner. On body shots in herds I prefer RN solids because you can safely take any behind the shoulder shot with out having to worry about what is behind your target animal. With a FN solid it will probably exite the far side and if there is another behind it,wound or kill it. Good luck on your hunt!

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Everybody says, "Buy Will's book!"

Can somebody tell me who Will is, the name of his book, and where to get one?

For the record, I have one bull elephant shot with 450 grain .458 North Fork solids.

Indy,

You just ruined Will's day.

465H&H

Indy - he was an elephant hunter back in the 90's, although he did hunt some this decade. I have a signed copy (#30) that I will sell, but only at the right price.

It is worth the purchase price just to see a middle aged man in knickers and muscle shirts.

Look in the signature block for the AR poster "Will" and all secrets will be revealed.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Everybody says, "Buy Will's book!"

Can somebody tell me who Will is, the name of his book, and where to get one?

I was about to ask the same question until I read Will's signature line.

Indy he is posted five slots above your post.

Think Will whacked something around 21 eles.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
out of curiosity, and not to start a pissing contest between members, who on AR has the most jumbos? 10 seems like a lot to me, 10 more than I have. I'm just curious.

Red

Red There are several PHs who post here that started off as croping officers, and Ganyana probably has a couple thousands under his belt, as do several of the others.

For clients here Saeed's last count I read on his bag was 12 but he maybe far above that today. I think the last count I saw for JPK was 18 for him, and Mike,s ten. There are others like Steve (Shikari) who no doubt has a few to his count.

So there is a wealth of experience on Elephant here to get info from that can be backed up by being there.

Might not have killed many but I'm quite happy with the Woodleigh FMJs.
But I also have them readily available (made in Aus).
If I lived in the US I might be using Northforks?

thanks, I was curious. I read bell's book and found it interesting how thorough he was in figuring out elephant anatomy. expert marksman combined with extensive knowledge of what you're shooting at, works every time.

knickers and muscle shirts, my lord that's a picture.

Red

Will's hunting shoes. They look good with the muscle shirt.

His book is worth the bucks, btw, and Buzz's video is a must!

I've not killed a whole bunch of elephants, but Woodleighs always worked for me. On the last couple, I've used Hornady factory ammo (the new ones) and they have exited on side brain shots and chest shots (just-in-case), too.

I've not used North Fork solids on elephant, but they've been shoot-throughs on a couple of follow-ups on buffalo with straight penetration.

You've got plenty of time to experiment. Shoot what gives you confidence among your choices.

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
thanks, I was curious. I read bell's book and found it interesting how thorough he was in figuring out elephant anatomy. expert marksman combined with extensive knowledge of what you're shooting at, works every time.

knickers and muscle shirts, my lord that's a picture.

Red

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your responses. I will buy the book and video.

Another book that does a good job of explaining shot placement on eles is Ron Thompson's "Mahohbo".

465H&H

quote:

For the hunt should I use North Fork solids or stick with the Woodleigh solids that I have been reloading with and practicing with?

NF's hands down.

PM NFMike and just discuss it a little with him. Even though he is the original maker of NF's...he is a NO BS kind of guy.

quote:

If you are comfortable and confident in the Woodleighs, stick with them. I think the mental edge being a confident shooter will give you will probably far outweigh any difference in the bullets.

Agreed!

But...I think you will be hard pressed to find a more accurate bullet than NF FNS's. If I were to go shoot in a big-bore accuracy contest with my rifles...NF FNS's would be the go-to bullet.

ledvm - Thank you for you input. At this time I am not really interested in big bore accuracy contests. Hitting the mark with open sights, off-hand, at 25 to 35 yards, is more in line with what I am interested in. The Woodleighs have been doing fine so far.

the best advice I ever got before my first hunt was practice practice practice which I did and I still did not feel like I shot well enough.

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain:
ledvm - Thank you for you input. At this time I am not really interested in big bore accuracy contests. Hitting the mark with open sights, off-hand, at 25 to 35 yards, is more in line with what I am interested in. The Woodleighs have been doing fine so far.

Agreed.

Just saying...NF FNS's are very accurate and are the "Gold Standard" for performance.

One of my best friends went buffalo hunting in the early '80's. "She" shot a good buff at about 35 yds through the heart with .308 Winchester. The buff humped...ran about 30 yards and fell over dead. She is always saying: "What is the big deal about shooting Cape Buff...kinda like a white-tail...I think".

muletrain ,
sounds like you have your weapon of choice and good ammo ,

my best piece of advice is to practice practice practice - to make it cheaper get a two trigger stoeger shotgun ,in 20ga they run about 350 dollars , get some express sights put on it and practice with that , it will get you used to the double trigger - each session do a box of shotgun and four big bore - you will find taht it doesnt take long to get very fast and accurate -

get used to firing two shots , reloading from your belt and two more - if all of that is second nature by the time you leave you will be ahead of the majority of people that go over there -

dont aim for pinpoint accuracy , a 6- 8 inch group consistently offhand at 50 yards is just fine - remember its not minute of angle but minute of elephant !!!

as far as shot placement , while there are all kinds of books and videos out there - your ph will be the best resource for that , by all means watch and read all that you can but time spent on the range will be far more valuable than time spent reading or watching -

in the first part of the hunt make sure on each elephant that you see your ph explains where the vitals are and where your shot placement would be and you will find that whithin a day or two having looked at lots of animals that you will be starting to feel confident that you know where to shoot -

on the videos , weather is buzz's dvd or ours please bear in mind that you are looking from the perspective of the cameraman not the shooter .

Ivan,

No comment on the type/brand of solid you like best???

quote:

o comment on the type/brand of solid you like best???

in my .577 i use barnes and have great success with them , they are flat nosed

in my .600 i havent shot much with it , the ammo is woodleighs and round nosed and has worked well on the two bulls that i have had to shoot at with it

in my .450 which i have shot a lot more than the other two , i have been using hornady , they are flat nosed , not as flat as the barnes though and have also performed well in many conditions -

i have seen lots and lots of people shooting elephants with all kinds of ammo from all and every manufacturer - to be honest i havent minutely dissected the performance but i cannot say that i have seen a huge difference in round nosed versus flat nosed - failure on elephants is usually far more about shot placement than about bulletts -

any of the higher end bulletts on the market today will work well and some rifles shoot better than others with a given bullett -

recently with hornady as a sponsor i have used those bullets a lot in my .450, that is the rifle i have been predominantly carrying so i have had a lot of experience with them and therefore i am better qualified to comment on those than the other brands - i dont believe you can make judgement after just a few shots , its takes hundreds to make an educated statement on performance


if you shoot an animal , the bullett does what you want it to do - i.e. goes through to the vitals and the animal dies , no matter what the bullett looks like at the end of that - it did not fail -

drives me nuts when a guy takes a bullett out of an elephant thats penetrated from a frontal all the way to between the shoulderblades , he looks at it , points out a slight deformity and tells me , man this is dissapointing !!!!!!!

quote:

any of the high-end DG solids will do the job just as well.

agree +1

quote:

if you shoot an animal , the bullett does what you want it to do - i.e. goes through to the vitals and the animal dies , no matter what the bullett looks like at the end of that - it did not fail -

drives me nuts when a guy takes a bullett out of an elephant thats penetrated from a frontal all the way to between the shoulderblades , he looks at it , points out a slight deformity and tells me , man this is dissapointing !!!!!!!

Agreed 100%!!!

Over the years...there have been a number of postings and articles on bullet failure.

And even in some of the more credible writings...like that of Ganyana and Kevin Robertson...it seems that Woodleighs are over represented in the failure category. Just an observation...not a statement by me saying Wooleighs are not good...as I have shot very few of them.

I have become friends with a bullet maker in the West (of the US of course) who does a LOT of testing of his own and other people's bullets. His data has made me steer away from Woodleighs for anything but practice...but...they are cheaper to shoot.

One other point to consider-
When I sought advice from Butch, he told me to stick with the Woodleighs. I have done so and not yet regretted it, but my ele bag is small. Only two cows to my name so far, a bull next season.
There is one other option to consider for practice. I have been casting lead bullets and making low velocity practice rounds with 5744. It's virtually free shooting, and you can rap off as many shots in a session as you want.

RE: Ron Thomsons' book "Mahohboh", after years of out of print status in now available from Ron. He resides in SA these days. Magron Publishing, also in SA has reprinted not only this book (2009), but the first in a series of six autobiographical books this year by Ron.

Contact Info: magron@ripplesoft.co.za They will put you in touch with Ron and you can get both books inscribed by him here by air for a bit under $200. Fascinating reading, and easily worth twice what I paid for them.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

When I sought advice from Butch, he told me to stick with the Woodleighs.

Why??? Is he afraid his rifles won't shoot others or they will be hard on his barrels?

Lane-
It's been several years since the conversation. I had never loaded for a double, and called him up for some advice to get started. I think the advice was more in the vein of keeping it simple, using the loads he regulated the rifle with, and not arguing with success. I continue to load Woodleigh softs over 106 gr IMR4831, 104gr IMR4831 under the FMJ to get the same velocity.
There are so many variables with a double, I have elected to resist the temptation to tinker, and just carry on with something that works.
Whether the Woodleigh solids work as well as more modern flat nosed solids is another can of worms which has been opened rather extensively on another recent thread.

quote:

as far as shot placement , while there are all kinds of books and videos out there

Ivan,

With that I would disagree.

Just because I star in Buzz's video doesn't make it one of the very best, but it doesn't hurt.

And there are darn few shot placements guides that are accurate.

Also get a look at Richard Harland's book on hunting the African elephant for some instruction, and definitely Ian Nyschens' Months of the Sun for color.
Besides the technical aspects of where to go and where to aim chunks of lead, these will give you a bit of perspective about the history, and very significance of the act you are preparing to do. Hunting ele is one of those things that's larger than life, and requires a bit of mental preparation as well.
Buzz's video is a must have, but reading these two should be required reading. Bell and Taylor for extra credit as well.

Marty,

Relying on what has worked in the past is not always the best way to go.

Hence...my previous post of my friend who shot her one and only buff with a .308 Win for a one shot kill and WMD Bell's success with 7X57 on ele saying it is a preferable weapon to a big-bore.

If you look at writings on bullet failures from folks who have removed a lot of bullets from ele...you will see Woodleighs are over-represented.

My grandfather also drove a wagon to town from the ranch every Saturday to buy groceries...I now drive my 4-wheel-drive double cab pick-up.

The wagon was successful on many an occassion however. He raised 11 kids from the groceries it brought home.