quote:

Originally posted by JoeR:
It simply cannot be done with one rifle. Years ago, maybe, when some PH's would let you hunt dangerous game in Africa with a 300 Wby mag and 220 gr. solids, but no more. Would you really take a 375 H&H or 416 out hunting Dall sheep? Or western antelope? Or Kalahari gemsbok where a 300 yd + shot may be necessary? Two rifles is the minimum, probably a 300 mag and a 458 of some variety would fill the bill.

JoeR has it right. It's a useless exercise best left to internet discussions.

Ummm, not to bust your bubble, but I could have easily used my 300 Weatherby on my buffalo had I wanted to. There are a a few posters here with documented kills on buffalo with a 300 Win Mag and as I stated previously, my friend took his kudu at a measured 352 yards. Not saying there are better rifles for more specialized hunting, as these two calibers were obviously not optimum, but it CAn be done with a 375 and without too much effort.... jorge

Anything can be done with one rifle IF the shooter is up to the task. Personally, I think a 375 is a piss poor long range rifle, and a 300 is likewise for buffalo.

John S., thank you for that veritable potpouri of wisdom in your last statement. I was only asking which one rifle cartridge would be capable of performing this task if at all possible. You seem to have no answers yet feel it is appropriate to insult others' suggestions. I do wish, however, to thank those of you who responded to the question in a serious manner. Your experience and knowledge is always appreciated by a beginner such as myself.
Take care,
jfm

375 H&H will take anything you aim it at but if you want a classic go for the .416 Rigby

I immediately thought .375 H&H, before I read any of these posts and I have found no reason to change my mind. Its worked very well on everything from crows to buffalo for me!

jfm-
I think you missed the meaning of what I posted. My first line pretty much said it all. With one rifle it is possible to hunt the world, but a hunter SEVERLY limits himself by doing so, in my experience. A 375 seems to be the popular choice, but I feel that is only because so many here are preoccupied with shooting truly big game and owning large bore rifles. If one looks at hunting on a worldwide basis, there isn't much of that to be done. I'd personally rather take a 300Wby or similar caliber and cover the remaining 99.5% in a more suitable manner. The few/one times the average hunter gets to hunt buffalo and/or elephant can be handled by renting or borrowing a rifle from the outfitter or a friend who might have one. I'm sure that last line will draw plenty of outrage by many, but that's how I would handle this scenario. They're free to pack their 375 or whatever else if that's their choice. I believe that anyone who has the necessary funds to hunt on a worldwide basis can afford a second rifle to make up a proper 2 rifle battery.

I have both a 375HH and a 458 Lott and use them each very frequently. I have also shot "couple" animals with each as have my hunters.

If I were to have to take only one of these, the 375HH would be the choice without any second thought. I too would choose it over anything else available today.

Certainly not the best for every application but it's good enough to do every job if you can do your part. This I think is the crux of the solution. The 375HH has some interesting benefits that most over look because it's just so good at so much.

One is that the long tapered case makes feeding and ejecting smoother and more reliable then just about any design since it came out. It's the origin along with the 300HH of nearly every magnum cartridge made today. The majority of those new cartridges sacrificed the feed and eject function of the long tapered case for the additional velocity gained by making it more straight walled. You pay your money and take your chances I suppose. Americans like the biggest and fastest things so it stands to reason it was only a short time before the perfectly functional case design was "hot rodded" into so many new cartridges.

Aside from the case design, there is another interesting feature that nearly every one made regardless of manufacturer can do. When zeroed for 100 yards with the 300 grain bullets, the 270 grain bullets will be zeroed in the mid 200 meter range. My personal rifle puts the 300's on the button at 100 meters and the 270's cross the zero line at 260 meters. I have found this to be true with......I think every single 375HH I have ever seen or used. One site setting, two bullet weights no scope changes. Not to mention that the bullet weights also match very nice with the intended species!

Finally the recoil issue. Considering the amount of expense and anticipation for a hunt your ability to shoot excellent will only come from your ability to shoot frequently and get along with your rifle. I know of no other cartridge where the investment in felt recoil delivers the lethal power of this cartridges bullets. You certainly can get more power, but only at the cost of significantly more recoil. Shooting hundreds of rounds for practice to prepare for your trips is far more pleasant and consistent with a rifle that you enjoy shooting and they you look forward to shooting. I like shooting the 458Lott too, but certainly not in the volume that I would when preparing for a long expensive hunting trip. I'm good for a dozen or more shots at a time maximum with the Lott. It will begin to effect your (my) concentration after 15 rounds. At 20-30 I'm not all that good with it anymore. This is with a custom stocked rifle made for me personally fitted to my frame, not some band aided retro fit. It's a sweet shooting rifle as many visitors here will tell you that have shot it. But it's still a freaking 458 LOTT!

There will be those that say, if you can handle a 375HH you can handle a 416. Well if you can handle a 416, then you can handle a 458Lott, and so on and so forth. There is always a threshold that limits a human’s function with anything and in shooting the 375HH is about where that line is at for a lot of guys. If you visit this site there is a recoil calculator here someplace. Last I looked the 375HH delivered about a 68 in the recoil level and the 416 was something like a 110 or so. Not quite double but significant.

Since it's a one rifle deal that will take you into mountain hunting I would opt for the lowest recoil that will still get the job done because your going to carry this thing a lot more then you shoot it. The lighter the rifle the better for me.

Now as far as the last feature. The trajectory for longish shooting. The 375HH with a 270 grain a frame, not the best BC of choices, I think the TSX would fit this better. I zero my personal rifle for 260 meters because the 300's are then dead on at 100 meters. With this I'm only 4" low at 300meters and 9" low at 350 meters. Beyond 350 meters there are about 1000 things that can happen when shooting big game and only one is good. I'm just not good enough to ensure that shooting this far with big game is responsible, for me. Your mileage may very.

Since 90% of the game I've killed and my clients have killed has been well under 300 yards and probably 80% under 200 yards that whole trajectory issue is not as important to me. I have killed Kudu, wildebeest, and a few bears at 350 plus (pre rangefinder era) it's never struggled a bit. Actually the 375HH with 270's has a nearly identical trajectory to the 30/06, maybe just a bit flatter, and certainly better in the wind. My personal 375HH is a Winchester Model 70 SS with Warne QD rings to allow me to use the open sights. I also have the Ashley outdoors rear peep sight that slides onto the back of the Warn base and tightens down giving me three types of sights for this rifle. I use a Leupold VXIII 2.5-8 with a Premier reticles number 4A style reticle. So far so good, it’s been a magic wand of death for myself and a number of my hunters now too.

Nothing is going to be perfect in every instance, but this nearly 100 year old bugger is still as close as you will get.

To further jump on the bandwagon here, JohnS comments make a lot of sense, particularly regarding the "Big Bore" mentality.
Even though I selected the 375 H&H, I mentioned (as I always do) the 300 Weatherby. Why? because it can AND has taken ALL of the world's big game. Is it optimum? certainly not, but as humans we have an important weapon, called "reason" that no other animal has. That means in simple terms "don't go in the long grass after a buffalo or whatever-has-teeth-or can-stomp you with a 300!" DON'T TAKE THE SHOT.

BUT, if the opportunity for a shot arises and you can mitigate dangerous consequences, take it. Hence, JohnS comment about the 300 Weatherby makes perfect sense in that 99% of your hunting, you are better armed than with a 375. Deja vu' but if Elgin Gates and others have done it with a 300, so can we. IF we use our head that is. jorge

JJ Hack brings up a salient point. Recoil!

.30-06 Springfld (180gr) 246.0

.300 Win Mag (180gr) 376.7

.300 Weatherby (220gr) 538.5

.375 H&H (300gr) 628.6

.416 Rem (400gr) 1117.5

.416 Rigby (400gr) 1187.9

.458 Lott (500gr) 1521.5

Click here for Recoil!

Note the recoil factor values are for reference (comparison) only. I'll still take my .300 Win Mag, thank you. It's close enough in the real world to a .300 Weatherby and doesn't tear up barrels as fast. But do yourself a favor and look at all of the .308s on up with comparable bullet weights, say 180 grains and up.

There are lot's of hairy chested guys on this board that seem to like the big bruisers, but how often will you use them if you're not a PH?

.30-06
.338 Win Mag
.375 H&H
.423 CARMELO
.458 CARMELO

You pays your money and takes your pick. Personnally I would choose a 375H&H because while you can never be over gunned, you can be under gunned. Anything above a 375H&H has a recoil level such that you are less likely to practice and more likely to flinch. I find my 375H&H to be more comfortable to shoot than my 300 win mag.

Further question: Anybody out there opt for a 375 wby or RUM?

TerryR

While the 375 seems the obvious choice for a one rifle battery it seems to me that it isn't really all that ideal for anything. Too heavy and kicks too much for the little stuff and a little lighter than I would prefer if I ever hunt buffalo or elephant.

Don't know how aviable ammo is in other parts of the world but i'd take the .404 Jeffery

375 H&H.

quote:

While the 375 seems the obvious choice for a one rifle battery it seems to me that it isn't really all that ideal for anything. Too heavy and kicks too much for the little stuff and a little lighter than I would prefer if I ever hunt buffalo or elephant.

I concur with this statement that while the 375 H&H does not necessarily do anything the "best" it can do "everything" fairly well and that is the criterion for a single "worldwide rifle".

I didn't know 300 Weatherbys {sic} tore up barrels fast? I must have an anomaly then. jorge

I have a buddy who has a dream of hunting the world with an open-sighted WWII vintage Lee Enfield in .303 British!

Frans

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Even though I selected the 375 H&H, I mentioned (as I always do) the 300 Weatherby. Why? because it can AND has taken ALL of the world's big game.

And the same can be said for the 30-06. Push a 220 grain solid through an elephants brain at reasonable velocity and you are in business (and likely at an advantage relative to hyper-velocity, manhood augmenting rounds). Frankly, I fail to see what the weatherby rounds buy one except the ability to take an animal from a greater distance (perhaps one at which one shouldn't be shooting anyway). Further, I thought we were hunters here....if the beast is too far to take with a 30-06 HUNT A BIT AND GET CLOSER!

Now, do I personally think the .30-06 is the ideal gun...OF COURSE NOT! What do you do when a big beast runs into the brush? Hope for the best with a 30-06 (or .300 WBY for that matter)? YIKES! For this reason, the ideal gun has to be one that a hunter is happy with given the few anticipated times he/she may have to track wounded and dangerous game AS WELL AS one he/she is happy with given the number of beasts that may possibly get away as a result of not being able to stalk close enough. It's a balancing act that is different for everyone given thier tolerance for going home empty and feeling undergunned (or losing wounded game). My opinion....I hate losing game and hate putting my ass on the line with a marginal rifle. Give me a 400 grain .416 diameter bullet at 2400 fps if you're limiting me to one weapon and one load. If I'm gonna be hunting Africa AT ALL (with this worldwide rifle) and if I can't get within range to take mountain beasts elsewhere with that round, then I deserve and am happy to go home empty.

JMHO,

John

Never mind. jorge

Post edited

John the Greek
As you know I have taken game to 300 yards with 286 grain bullets in my 9,3 Chapuis. However If I was to hunt game usually shot at 300 yards I would try some 232 and 250 grain bullets, as their higher velocity and flatter trajectory would seem more suitede to LR hunting of thatr sized game. Howevfer If they did noit regulate well at distqnce then the 285 grain Hawk should expand at those distances on that sized game.
The more I use the 9,3 double the more I like it.

I guess I should start believing some of you guys that have taken game beyond 300 yards with the .375 H&H magnum. I just pulled this off the Public Broadcasting Service website regarding the golden age of buffalo hunting. (http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/five/buffalo.htm)

"It's common for modern riflemen to look down their noses at these old rifles of ours, dub them "smokesticks" and believe no accuracy is possible without a military type rifle and modern smokeless powder ammunition. I guess it doesn't do them any harm to believe in fairy tales, but let me tell you something: no rifles made could match these old Remingtons and Sharps we runners used.

Prove it? Sure. Why not? With carefully handloaded ammunition and perfectly adjusted telescope sights, we could make full possibles at any range from fifty to 500 yards. We could do it in the face of heavy wind, straight on, fishtail, or full cross currents. At distances above 500 and up to 1,000 yards, the .45-120-550 Sharps with patched bullets is absolutely unsurpassed by any weapon known to man."

(Up to 1000 yards with a 550 grain lead bullet with 19th century ballistic coefficient driven by black powder charges at approximately 1500 fps.)

If the .375 H&H magnum is a "piss poor long range rifle", why in God's name could these guys kill bison at 1000 yards with an antiquated rifle cartridge/caliber such as this?

Seems to me that knowing ones rifle is the best bet.

And with that I am betting the .458 Lott could be quite a long range wonder given similar circumstances.

Interesting......

Tony,

Do you still sight in your scope for the most accurate bbl rather than the center of both groups? An interesting idea and not a bad one if guys are thinking about using the double for longer range plinking at plains game.

Best,

John

Two rifles and a shotgun will fit in a TuffPak with some clothing. Just a thought.

Have TuffPak, will travel?

My Chapuis is sighted in for the center of group with 286 grain bullets. From field positions it hits as good as I can with a bolt rifle. The one exception would be prone in a sling, then the inherent accuracy of a good rifle really shines, but not much game is shot from prone.

I'd love to know how many of those bison were wounded and lost by the "riflemen" mentioned in that article. I wonder how many of those "riflemen" paid a trophy fee for every one of them that was shot at, hit and not recovered? I wonder what their hits to miss ratio was? I wonder why I've never read about those calibers being used at Camp Perry for the 1000yd matches these past 50yrs or so? Or the 375 for that matter...
jfm, you seem to have a frickin' problem with me or what I said about the 375. Did I shatter a grand illusion you have about the cartridge? Or is it just because I stated an opinion that doesn't go along with many others? I stated my position and my opinion about the subject and those are mine, based on my experience. If they don't match up with what others say, or what you want to hear, too bad. After owning 5 M70s in 375, none of mine performed like JJ's, putting 270s just enough above the 300s that one could happily use either one. I've used those rifles all over the world too, so it's not like I hate the caliber. It kicks too hard for ultra precise work, which is what long range shooting is. It also lacks velocity for true long range work. And long range shooting isn't 300yds, it just starts there. And it isn't always at animals the size of a small horse, some aren't any bigger than a small dog. Like I said earlier, IMO the 375 is a piss poor long range caliber.

450#2-
"Not much game is shot from prone" makes me wonder... I'll take that position every time I can get it, regardless of the range. I've taken an awful lot of game laying down behind a pack. Most folks I've hunted with over the years always did too.

John S., I must apologize to you. I did not mean for this to sound like a personal attack and I certainly do not want to be responsible for frustrating someone to the point of using the F word on a public forum. Saeed advised that was a bad thing to do. Once again, my apologies. When I play the devils advocate I learn more!

Thanks,
jfm

Apology accepted. I've editted the "word" in my post.

Hey, you guys are really on to something here. Forget the Sharps or the 404 or the Lott which drop like a rock. Why don't we all just get a Barrett Model 99 in .50BMG? Recoil about like a 12 ga. with the brake system, pretty good stopping power for the close in DG stuff, and unsurpassed longe range ability. Great from 30 feet on a jumbo out to 1000 yds on a gopher. Nothing's better close in and nothing's better for long range grouping. Manageable recoil to boot!

I cast a vote for the 375 H&H. My last three hunts, it is the only rifle I brought, for baboon (tried but missed) many impala etc. and buff. I like the 375 because well...they all drop when you hit em. My buff went about five steps, then collapsed (hit through the heart).

I do love larger calibers, for instance, the 404 Jeffrey, the 416 Rigby, but I seem to decide on the 375 when it comes time to pack.

I think 2 other interesting topics are:

1. Did you ever take a rifle or caliber and later regret it? Why?

(for me, I took a 308 (with the 375), which was worthless- should have brought a 223 or 243 for the small distant stuff instead)

2. Wood/blue or synthetic? High end or good working rifle? Having just returned with my Dakota 76 in 375 H&H, which got royally dinged up and rusted, despite my daily cleaning, I am thinking again about using my Sako (1/5 the price of the Dakota), or switching to a synthetic stocked rifle, possibly even stainless metal. On the other hand, I do like to handle and carry the nice rifles!

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but anyone else have thoughts on this?

quote:

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but anyone else have thoughts on this?

Sure. Caliber aside, a good working rifle will be synthetic-stocked and deep-blued or stainless steel. D'Arcy Echols, Jim Borden and Ed Brown are three guys that make top-notch rifles of that description.

I went through 8 factory rifles of various calibers from Sako, Winchester (pre-64 and modern), Remington, Weatherby Ultra Light and Mannlicher Schoenauer. All had one or more niggling faults I didn't want to hassle with any longer. I don't want to have think about my tools. I just want them to be there when I need them. I got an Echols and sold the rest.

One rifle for the World?

How about a switch barrel in .300 H&H/.375 H&H / .458 Lott?

Good idea ...

Blaser R93

Bit of a debate between the 300Weath and 375H*H i see, why not just get the best of both worlds, the flat shooting hard hitting medium bore..340 Weatherby Magnum!
But overall i like the 375H*H, with a 265GscHV she is plenty flat enough and will do anything a 300gn lead core will do, up close or far.

.375/265gnGscHV@2700...300yds:2364v/3290e/89 momentum/33 TKO.
+1.5"(100yd)..-9.0"(300yd)
might I add the above is a conservative figure, Gerard lists the 265HV at 2900fpsmax on his reloading data. If you were able achieve that you would get:
265GscHV@2900....300yd:2540v/3790e/96 momentum.
.................................500yd:2300v/3130e/87 momentum.
about +2"100yd....-8" 300yd.

In comparison:
H*H 270Fs Factory:
2670fps.......(300yd)2033v/2478e
+2.2"100yd......-9.1"300yd

Remington 300gn Aframe:
muzzle2530......300yd:1733v/2000e
+2.7"100yd.....-11.7"300yd.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The 375 H&H has held that title since 1912 and I don't see any pretender taking over that place yet.

Ditto !!

quote:

Originally posted by JoeR:
It simply cannot be done with one rifle. Years ago, maybe, when some PH's would let you hunt dangerous game in Africa with a 300 Wby mag and 220 gr. solids, but no more. Would you really take a 375 H&H or 416 out hunting Dall sheep? Or western antelope? Or Kalahari gemsbok where a 300 yd + shot may be necessary? Two rifles is the minimum, probably a 300 mag and a 458 of some variety would fill the bill.

Joe, that´s not right anymore.
Check out Impala Bullets, they will make your .375 a nice 400 yards shooter. No Problem.

Or check the KJG´s by Lutz Möller. They will make the job and you even dont need more than a 9,3x62 for all game.

If John S is so annoyed that so many of us are "preoccupied with truly big game" and he is such a lover of pee-wee guns, what the hell is he doing moderating the African Hunting Forum?

I think Saeed has come up with just the ticket. His favorite 375/404 or a 375 Dakota or a 375 Weatherby. They have the potential to step up a little extra for the big bad boys and you can always load it back to H&H levels. I know availability of over the counter ammo is a positive for the H&H and if that is a concern the 375 Weatherby has more horsepower than the H&H and can again be loaded down when appropriate. If your ammo goes missing, it will use 375 H&H factory ammo. If all my rifles vanished, the first I would order to replace would be a 375 Dakota.

interboat-
I love and own/have owned all types of rifles from the 577NE down to the lowly 22 rimfire. I love big bore rifles and shoot them quite a bit, just as I do my "peewee" guns. More importantly, I know from my own experience when one of them is called for and when it's a hindrance. The question was posed as a "worldwide" hunting rifle, that means it isn't just about African hunting, out of which there are only four truly big animals. Discussions like this are really pointless, because I doubt anyone hunts the world with only one rifle. IMO, there are no realistic uses for big bore rifles in about 98% of the world's hunting. Yes, you might get by doing it with a 375 but if someone truly has the wealth to hunt worldwide you can bet it likely won't be with just one rifle/caliber. Having the right gun for the job is far more satisfying to me.

John S,

You're right it was a dumb question. As though such a thing as having to use only one rifle for all hunting all over the world were a real constraint!

But I'm still right and everyone else who didn't choose the .416 Rem. Mag. is just wrong and maybe even congenitally stupid besides.