Dear Hunter..,

If you ask someone for a Hamburger, you pay him, and he hand over the Hamburger.....

What do you do?

1.) Thank the man, and walk away with your burger.
2.) Turn around, without thanking the man, and walk away with your burger.

If you are in the second category, do not read further, but if you are in the first, read on:

You want to hunt in Africa....first, second or third timer? It does not matter. You start e-mailing outfitters, and engage in correspondence. WE(the outfitters) spend a lot of time to answer your questions, working out prices that will SUIT your requirements the best, make telephone calls to see where we can fascilitate your hunt the best, etc....this is for YOUR benefit, before you paid a dime....

PLEASE, just respond to our efforts with, "Thank you for the effort, but I have decided to book with XYZ-Safaris, because .... they are cheaper, I like the guys wife on the web-site, they hunt better areas",...or any BS, but get back to us and learn to say thank you, but no thank you......

This realy get's under my skin, and after hearing similar complaints decided to address it here.

Thanks for reading....

Charl van Rooyen
Infinito Safaris

Good point! We experience the same thing with our local government when we tender a bid then never hear a thing until we ask.

Charl,

The world would be a better place if everyone had manners but we can hope and wish.

But youre right you spend time and especially a lot of phone time to get a proper quote and hunt organised only to be turned down and not even being told that you were turned down.

Worse for outfitters is when they start phoning farm owners for prices and all the farmer can think of is "Another outfitter, I'm just wasting my time here the guy will not come back to me anyway so why bother the trouble !"

Ah, the joys of selling. I was in sales of various types for 13 years (copiers, computers, printing services, insurance, timeshares (ugh!), security systems, you name it!)

Unfortunately, most people who have never experienced selling don't understand just how much work it is to quote and follow up and also how much of a "downer" it is when you don't get the sale. Some of those feelings are mitigated at least by receiving a nice, pleasant contact expressing thanks and letting the seller "down" in an easy manner. But I agree, not hearing ANYTHING at all just plain sucks.

Poor manners make all Americans look bad. Thanks for the heads up.

quote:

Poor manners make all Americans look bad.

I think that should read, ANYONE, look bad.

Keith

Agreed, this is a pleasure sport and good manners should be part of the relationship.

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:

quote:

Poor manners make all Americans look bad.

I think that should read, ANYONE, look bad.

Keith

Sadly, bad manners are found everywhere.

It does not cost more to say "thank you" or "please".

Charl,

A thank you is always nice but I'm afraid that when you are trying to sell something that you move down a peg on the evolutionary scale in a lot of people's minds. In other words you don't rate the courtesy that other people deserve. Actually I can live with this easily but what I find disappointing is to help a guy tailor a safari that is just what he wants and then have him book another safari that I know will not fulfill his expectations to save a very small amount of money.

Mark

Yes, bad manners make anyone look bad. I only stated Americans because I'm sure most of the safari hunters Charl van Rooyen deals with are American.

As a high school English teacher I find I spend most of my time teaching civility, manners, and etiquette rather than literature.

But again, bad manners make anyone look bad.

High pressure salesmen are the least successful of all sales people in any industry.

Go here to see why!

Infinito,

Your point was well stated. May
we all learn as we go...

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:

quote:

Poor manners make all Americans look bad.

I think that should read, ANYONE, look bad.

Keith

Sure, try with the French. They are second to none for poor manners. Another point in common with Merkins.

I guess it all depends on the individuals we come across personally. From my experience the best mannered people I've ever come across are the Texans....... probably the best fun as well. - I've never had a problem at all with the French.

Of course, being English and as naturally polite as we are, I'd be reticent to comment on which nation might lack manners, but if Iwere pressed to do so, I'd say that the people with the least manners, culture, cuisine, class, taste or any redeeming features I've ever come across are the Russians, closely followed by the other countries from what we might call the former eastern block.

Hows that for candour!

Infinito:

I hasten to say that I am in category (1) on your test (for what it's worth) of "manners" However I'll confess that I really don't feel much sympathy for you if you don't "close the deal" -because your "customer" found a better deal elsewhere -and, "Gee! He never came back to me to say so -so I could get another chance to talk his ear off". (Americans often visit any number of car dealers and use up a lot of salesman time -and certainly don't go back to tell each dealer why they bought the car from someone else)

Infinito,

I agree with your point entirely.

In my experience the converse is often true too however. Many times in the course of "shopping around" I have had a number of people work very hard to put together a quote for me. I sincerely appreciated the effort and felt it necessary to follow up with them when I decided to go with someone else (which was usually NOT a very easy decision). When I did contact these individuals to thank them and explain why I chose to go elswhere (this time anyway, as I was still impressed with their effort), I was treated quite rudely. I understand the dissapointment in not making a sale, but their attitude undid everything good they had done, and practically ensured that next time I would not bother calling them.

Sadly, this seems to happen almost as often as not.

So, while I agree with you wholeheartedly, I must make the point that it cuts both ways.

Cheers,
Canuck

Canuck,

Your absolutely right. A guy that contacts me and has the courtesy to say he has chosen another operator gets a "I wish you the best of luck, I hope your safari is successful and I hope in the future you will give me the opportunity to show you what we can offer".

Mark

I venture into these waters with some trepidation.

This is a two way street fellows. I have dealt with several booking agents that appear interested initially and then seem to let things die after a promise to follow up and get back with you. I have always just chalked it up to bad business practices. But it has happened more than once with different booking agents. Seems like if the booking involves some work, trying to accommodate the needs of several different hunters hunting together, changing standard "packages", etc., some have just decided it is not worth the effort. God bless them, great to have that much business I guess. That's okay, but the same courtesy of telling the prospective client that I really do not have anything that works for you, look somewhere else, you might try calling . . . , good luck, whatever, would be nice.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by infinito:
Dear Hunter..,

If you ask someone for a Hamburger, you pay him, and he hand over the Hamburger.....

What do you do?

1.) Thank the man, and walk away with your burger.
2.) Turn around, without thanking the man, and walk away with your burger.

If I am the customer and I purchase something, then once I pay the seller should say, "thank you" and then, being the well-mannered person I am, respond, "you're welcome."

I agree that if I request information for which I am not required to pay then a "thank you" is in order.

My pet peeve is vendors, outfitters, etc. who advertise online but do not respond to email requests for information. If you do not intend to respond then don't have a "contact us" section.

infinito, I agree wholeheartedly.

This is exactly why I have quit the business world. I have now put all of my money into girl scout cookies and, as a sideline, I host tea and crumpet parties for old ladies.

I'll never make any money at it, but I do get a lot of thank you's, and I feel a lot better emotionally.

Canuck is right. Quite often when I've contacted an outfitter or booking agent to tell them I've chosen another the first question asked is who then a long dissertation on why my choice stinks. I owned a sales company for 35 years and can count on my one hand the number of times I was thanked for an unsuccessful quote. I always felt it was my responsibility to follow up on my proposal and to "tweek" it along the way. In this day of electronic communication follow up would indicate interest to me and would win ties.

Lots of good points and reminders and in an ideal world....... But being on both the buying and selling end I have run across a few poor manners on both ends and lots of very grateful and genuinely nice people over the past 30 years!

Truth be known I think that as a whloe the hunting industry is spoiled rotten by so many clients that are out for a bit of fun and spending money on something that they are truely infatuated with to the point that they are a bit like young soldiers on leave at a brothel.

Likely to get screwed more often than not and seldom apprecated and while many are getting more than they deserve others get less and a few more than they bargained for which if even worse!

Since in my hunble opinion hunting and taxidermy are simply service industries we the server need to be conscious of our obligation to serve from the 1st phone call or e-mail all the way thru and past the last! Be greatful for all our clients and apprecative of the nice ones!

Or make it clear up front that we are in this business for giggles and the easy money and bugger em fair and square!

Most of us could have made better money doing something we hated so I take my bonus each day I come to work!

LJS,

Every situation is different but the agent/outfitter might be right and you did make a mistake.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
LJS,

Ever situation is different but the agent/outfitter might be right and you did make a mistake.

Mark

I don't think its good decorum for the guy you didn't go with to tell you all about what a bad decision you made though. It just seems like sour grapes at that point.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
infinito, I agree wholeheartedly.

This is exactly why I have quit the business world. I have now put all of my money into girl scout cookies and, as a sideline, I host tea and crumpet parties for old ladies.

I'll never make any money at it, but I do get a lot of thank you's, and I feel a lot better emotionally.

This actually sums up the discussion very well. Well said, MR.

Madabula has some very wise words in his post. Having been in sales for several years, busting your arse on a quote and never hearing back just comes with the territory. If YOUR not following up and checking how the CUSTOMER is leaning, well, maybe you legitimately don't have time or have other bigger deals to close, etc., but I never once expected a customer to get back with me and tell me he bought from someone else. It was either my job or someone who worked for me to figure out if the customer bought from someone else.

Charl,

I feel your pain, but as mentioned above that is just part of sales. Not a pretty part of the human experience but part never the less.

Most of my hunts are booked by email so I spend a ton of time answering hunters that just blanket email tons of outfitters. Many I think I'll never hear from again but I've also found that many simply put off setting up the hunt until later and somewhere in the back of their mind think the dialog is still open. I've found up to a year later that the same person may contact you continuing the same conversation.

Be glad people usually have to plan a long way ahead for your hunts. Since I'm only 3 to 4 hours from most of my clients too often people will email in a big panic wanting to hunt in a few days. I'll arrange ranches, rearrange appointments and family obligations and never hear from them again. It's just sales and I have to try not to take it personally.

All the best,
Kyler

quote:

Originally posted by CVC:
My pet peeve is vendors, outfitters, etc. who advertise online but do not respond to email requests for information. If you do not intend to respond then don't have a "contact us" section.

CVC

If the outfitter does not respond promptly and professionally - let him have the proverbial bullet and forget about him. The standard of the response will be indicative of the standard of service you can expect.

Infinito

The internet and the communications that it offers is of great value for a lot of us - but you have to remember that it has also created a "tyre-kickers" heaven. There are many surfers that ask for prices and proposals just because they can. It must be very entertaining jerking off a bunch of keen outfitters if you're that way inclined, I suppose!

I hold nothing against prospective clients who engage with me and then book elsewhere. I don't expect to reach agreement in every case, and I don't need to. And I don't really feel bad if they don't get back to me after they decide to go someplace else. Frankly, it's mostly a lost cause at that point. Sometimes I call out of curiosity, if I feel that we were almost there. Usually, the client has decided to go with something I don't offer. Sometimes, as another poster noted, he then pops up again a year or two later now that he has gotten hunt X under their belt and wants to do hunt Y as originally discussed.

However, quite often when I follow up with a client that seemed to be ready, eager and willing, I find that he's not going hunting at all. He has had an "unexpected change of plans" which I think means a wife veto most of the time. Or sometimes, he's just a kid or a newbie and had no idea that a lion hunt costs as much as a very nice car.

I also sell specialty firearms on the net, and only on the net. This does get a little frustrating at times. A prospective buyer will often ask several questions about an item, and when the answers are all positive (yes, it's available; yes, it has steel barrels; yes, it's nitro proof; yes, it has ejectors) he then goes silent. This can be a little hard to fathom. It's understandable when the item doesn't meet expectations, but when it rises to or above the "spec", it's hard to understand why there is no follow-through. An offer would be better than silence. I think some folks play a game, where they get interested, not really intending to buy, and then try to "excuse" themselves by asking a lot of questions looking for an out. Human nature I suppose.

The toughest one for me is the "Send more pictures" request. Get lots of those. It takes a lot of time to retrieve a gun from the gun room, take pictures on special request, and then download and email them. It used to drive me nuts when I did this and people didn't respond at all. Not even "Thanks for the photos, but the gun is not what I was looking for/beyond my budget/whatever". Then I realized, almost without exception, these picture people don't buy no matter how many pictures you provide. So now I send the additional pics I have, if any, and suggest that the 3 day inspection is there to allow a full and close inspection. That tends to separate the men from the boys.

So while I can relate to the original post somewhat, I guess I view these interactions like fishing. You present your offering as best you can on that particular day, but you recognize that most of these presentations are not going to result in a sale. You have to compensate by making a lot of presentations. If that isn't working, then you need to change your offering.

Exactly like my side of the pond. I must say it gets on my nerves when I follow up after quoting something other competitors won't or can't offer and discover that the one who asked just had some phantasy or wanted to have the best IMNSHO advice before to start his quest for the lowest price in France, Europe, US and the whole world if available..
I sometimes have the guy calling under another alias one year later to have me giving advice on how to solve problems he has after he dealed with the lowest bidder far away and not willing to address the issue.

Thank you all for your input. For a change it was all constructive, it does not matter which way your opinion sways.

Tyre kickers.....get a lot of them, and ussualy you sort them out quite easily, and true enough, you do not hear from them, or expect to hear from them......and forget them......

IT is those people that want a custom safari, and you swap 10-15 e-mails, and haggle on prices.....and then they just dissapear.

Just not nice, but as one of the guys said....business is business, if you can't take it, sell cookies and drink tea with old ladies....

It is just not the way I do business.......

I had a winner, 135 mails for photos, technical datas and prices plus almost daily phone calls for 2 1/2 months.
He was ready to buy anything someone could push him to buy, I directed him to a custom product that would fill his primary requirement, a rifle with accuracy below 1/2 MoA to shoot long range.
Final price was below 2500 € including scope and accessories.
The guy went silent, did not answer phone or mails.
Found out that he had contacted everyone with the technical datas and ordered from someone else because of a 80 € discount.
When I finally got him on the phone, he said it was because I did not return his last call on a Sunday he had let a message on my answering machine.
Many Frogs are like him..

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I guess it all depends on the individuals we come across personally. From my experience the best mannered people I've ever come across are the Texans....... probably the best fun as well. - I've never had a problem at all with the French.

Of course, being English and as naturally polite as we are, I'd be reticent to comment on which nation might lack manners, but if Iwere pressed to do so, I'd say that the people with the least manners, culture, cuisine, class, taste or any redeeming features I've ever come across are the Russians, closely followed by the other countries from what we might call the former eastern block.

Hows that for candour!

I must agree

and I add, the best mannered people I got in touch for business among foreigners were British.

Tire kickers or not... I'll answer any inquiry about a hunt. They may book with me and they may not. I'll even do a Pro Forma for the hunt they want. Even if they don't book with me, I'm always aware of how I treat potential clients, you never know what they may say about you after the fact. And, you never know... they may come back the next time and book with you because of how you treated them.

I am there with Mark, "Hope you have a fantastic hunt; I would love to see pictures and hear about it; don't hesitate to ask me if you have any questions about anything; hope you think of me for your next hunt in Africa."

What can you do? It happens.

I don't begrudge the tyre (or tire) kickers. After all, they're still guys who dream of hunting Africa and it costs nothing to e-mail them details of your various offerings - and you never know, next week, next month or next year, they just might make enough money to do so. - Some are easy to spot, the enquiry comes in over the weekend and it's for a large number of guys who want all the Big 5 in a short hunt. These are a bunch of guys who have got together after a great night in the bar and gone back to someone's home for a few drinks and then someone says, hey, wouldn't it be cool to hunt Africa and let's look on the net. The others are often harder to spot, but they're bored on a Sunday afternoon and surf the net for fun and then get interested....... until someone reminds them of the fact they have a young family and a new home etc...... As I said, it's fine and all part of the business and I don't blame them.

The real players tend to have done their research on reputations and recommendations beforehand and they'll book within just a few e-mails.

What we safari companies/outfitters/agents etc need to try to remember is that it's only good manners to remember that they're all hunters at heart....... even if they can't afford an African safari.

Well said, Steve. In sales, you have to kiss a lot of frogs before one turns into Angelina Jolie!