This might be a touchy topic....but here it goes.

Who participate on this forum...???We are all hunters...Professionals, booking agents, trophy hunters, gun lovers, nature lovers, and apparently a couple of hardcore politicians as well.

What do I want to say? We share information, and ask questions. P.H.'s like myslef, JAco Human,Chris Trotskie, Frederick Cockuyt, KArl Stumpfe,Johan from Bhati adventures, and Andrew McClaren, to name a few, try to offer our fellow AR members good hunting deals from time to time. We hope that we can save clients money by not advertising for thousands of rands (and dollars), by selling the hunts on forums like this. Then we save a bit, and in that way can save you a bit as well. So, why is it that so many people are reluctant to book over the internet???

And this goes for the booking agents as well. And please, do not give me the BS about MEETING the PH at a hunting show....IT became very clear at our PHASA AGM earlier the week that less and less outfitters go to the shows in the States. It is expensive, and the business generated does not warrant the cost.

If you want to spend big money for DG, then I will say do the effort to go with the guys that are by far the most well known....BUT PG????

All the names listed above are reputable members of PHASA, and adhere to that organizations code of conduct. Most of us are members of SCI as well.....

I had a couple of hunts from this forum, and the guys, and woman, enjoyed it so much, that they booked again for 2008.

So.....support our own.....Between the lot of us, we hunt,in addition to SA, in Namibia, Zimbabwe, and Mozambique, for any legal huntable specie you can think of.....

The same goes for the booking agents active on this forum......support them, they spend a lot of time giving free advice, just so that you can go and book with someone else......
Do not see this as a cry for help. I'm bussy enough with hunting as it is, but we can sure as hell do with getting more clients, without paying the mad advertising, and marketing fees......

Any person booking with me, because of this thread can hunt 2008 with me for $280.00 1x1 day fees. This is proof of my willingness to support your hunting in Africa on AR.......

Charl van Rooyen
Infinito Safaris
www.infinito-safaris.com

quote:

All the names listed above are reputable members of PHASA, and adhere to that organizations code of conduct.

Good post Charl. Just a correction, I am not a PHASA member, but a NAPHA member. (Hopefully still reputable-!

I have had the pleasure of booking several readers of this forum, some now into their second and third hunts. I would like to think that they made their bookings based on an assessment of what I have posted here over the years. It's probably a better place to size someone up than a 20 minute interaction at a show.

However, that's not the only reason I participate. I learn a lot from the postings and I try to contribute where I can. This forum is the best place to get the latest info on various happenings of relevance.

I know Charl and he offers some fantastic wingshooting as well as PG hunts. The issue with PG hunts is the amazing number of choices out there, combined with the ease of researching hunts on the internet. Anyone wanting to book a PG hunt is faced with an agonizing process of sifting through literally hundreds and hundreds of choices, some outstanding, most very good, and a few sub-par. A forum like this can help a prospective hunter cut to the chase very fast.

Gents,I would have no problems at all booking a hunt with one of you guys, but you also must realize that personal contact and personal recommendations go a long way at least for me.

Also and perhaps and rightly so, I'm shortchanging myself, but I hunt with one PH. Why? because I did my research and a fellow forumite and friend hunted with him and highly recommended him. I realize there are many, many great PHs and outfits out there, but I can't afford to have a bad safari. Eventually I'll try another PH and chances are it will probably be somebody from here.

Sociopath Assholes like Carmelo, Terrence Murphy (AKA CATS, ALP#4,chugach, jorgie, jorgie01 and many others that I've forgotten) sometimes wreak havoc here, but like I've told Saeed & Don on more than one occasion, I consider this place a sort of "home" and have made some very, very good friends here. And if you can trust a friend, so take heart, I'm sure business will pick up. jorge

I cannot speak for everyone. But for myself I plan on booking with an outfitter on this forum.

I think this is the place for information that is available in few other places, on the net, or in person! Addtionally, everyone who has been to Africa, have favorite PH's, and outfitters, and it is only natural to go with what you know as quality. The fact that there is a well rounded group of people here who are available for information on others you haven't hunted with, makes this place very valuable, and I assume a benefit, to the Outfitters/PHs on this site as well.

Some times folks read into a PH/OF's way of writing, the wrong opinion, of the temprement of them, that is not so when met face to face.
This is a fine resource, and all should take advantage of it's volume of free infromation!

.................

Funny enough, I've been watching a number of SA PH's sort of 'advertising' PG and other hunts here on AR.

My thoughts and conclusions are now confirmed by the originator of this post - not much of a reaction to their ads!

Why?
Some of you guys are just to pushy and over-promoting of yourselves and your offerings, that's why.

People have choices and if something is made to sound too good, it simply is too good.

No ad is as good as the ad that goes by mouth from one hunter to the other.

How do you get that going?
By rendering really good value for money and the best of all service to your clients.

A long-term project - no quick rich easy moneyspinning tactics ever lasts in this world in any business.

Gentlemen,

I booked my first trip Aug 08' based on input and reccomendations I garnered on this forum. After watching this forum for a number of years it was clear that any PH or firm posting on this forum had a vested interest in providing quality for the money...the power of the internet is such that one cannot afford the mistake of promoting 1st quality and providing 2nd quality, the fallout from such an act is much too detrimental to their business. I hope to make another trip and you can be sure I will utilize one of those presenting their firms here.

So many of you made numerous safaris and your contributions to this forum are of great value to the "wannabes" like myself. Your reccommendations/comments/trip reports have considerable influence, at least on me.

I appreciate the offers made here and I only wish I was at a monetary level to take advantage of them. I commend Infinito for his post.


SFC E7 (retired)

I have got my total African education from this and a few more sites and for that I am very grateful.
The reports of others and who they have hunted with have yielded nuggets of gold for me to use in a future hunt.
When I first started surfing the net for info on hunting Africa and this site was one of the first I found.
My motive was to find a place to hunt but as a taxidermist I have gotten work from the members which I'm thankful.
Its nice to see PH's and booking agents here on a regular basis because with that can you a idea of what kind of person they are.
I for one would most likly book a hunt from someone here.
I think what infinito is saying is keeping the money in our small community.

Thanks to all for your help.
Steve

Well, I strongly disagree.

Even if it is "just a PG hunt" I think it is imperitive to meet with the PH first, or have an excellent recommendation from someone one knows personally. Call it the internet phenomenon, but people, even PHs, can represent themselves as about anything in cyberspace. When the rubber hits the road and you meet the guy face to face and you then dread spending the next 7 days with him, well you get the picture.
I booked a hunt based on recommendations from this forum with Boet Nel, who, in my opinion, is an unpleasant and vulgar person. Had I met him at a show, after a few minutes, I would have moved on. The hunt was a disaster, which I have posted about...

I also was considering a booking with another PH who posts pretty regularly here, but when I met him in person in RSA, I can tell you I would never want to hunt with him. I just have a thing against guys who drink a lot and talk nonsense.

That is probably why I keep going back with the same 2 or 3 PHs. They all have their plusses and minuses, but the personal chemistry must be at least tolerable.

Lastly, there are guys I have not met who post here, but based on their tone and attitudes displayed in their posts, I would also avoid them.

That is me. I just finished my 15th trip, and know I am not the ideal client either (please - those who know me- don't list all my faults but in the end, the, for lack of a better term, "chemistry" and respect has to be there or why bother hunting with a guy?

I have had dealings with three persons from this forum, and every one of them has been a pleasure. The first was Ray Atkinson and a deer hunt, which, when it fell through, Ray refunded in full my money and was very apologetic about the whole matter. The second was with Vaughn for elephant in Namibia. Not only was it successful, but we had a wonderful time and he is a really nice person. Lastly, I worked with Charl regarding lodging on our trip this year in Jo-burg. He could not have been more helpful, and I look forward to hunting with him as soon as I can (as does my sister-in-law.)

I have more interesting difficulties with persons unrelated to this forum than with those related to it. Bad apples don't hang on this tree too long. Kudude

I think I have to agree with 404 on this one. Not too long ago a list of "good" PHs was generated. On the list were two PHs I personally did not care for. One I hunted with for ten days and the other I shared a camp with for about four days. I knew I didn't care for either in 10 minutes. I have also met many incidentally while on hunts that I knew I could enjoy their company. The quality of the hunt is a component of the experience as is your compatibility with the PH. If I can book a hunt confident both issues are positive, I know I will have a good time. I think this is why so many hunters hunt several times with the same PH. A bad hunt can be a very expensive mistake.

Charl ...

FYI and just out of GENERAL interest ...

I have been (consulting/booking) privately since 1997 for my brother Alan owner/operator of Balla-Balla Safaris.

We dont attend any hunting shows or use print publications any more ..... Intially we did a couple of shows years ago, but now find the internet repeat clients and word of mouth see us home and hosed.

Essentially I have DONE all of MY BOOKINGS since 1997 (over or using the internet) not necessarily to the AR Guests, BUT to a very BROAD RANGE of hunters Worldwide, some from the USA, New Zealand, Spain, Hungary, Italy, Germany, Croatia, Russia, Saudi Arabia and South Africa

So in summary, YES THE INTERNET DOES WORK, OR more correctly, it has worked extremely well for myself and Balla-Balla Safaris the Company ...

Cheers, Peter (based in NZ)

I have to say that my first trip to Africa was booked with Karl Stumpfe based on a recommendation from a guy on the internet. I had never been to a show, so that was out for me.

To say that it worked out well is an under-statement. I had a wonderful trip with a true professional.

Don't underestimate how effective the internet CAN be at transmitting good information. I'd have missed a super hunt if I had not used the internet. I am headed back as soon as I can get the details worked out.

Josh

quote:

Essentially I have DONE all of MY BOOKINGS since 1997 (over or using the internet)

Peter, as I recall, you guys were among the first to figure out how to work the old search engines (pre-Google) so that your website was at/near the top. I recall doing searches using phrases like "cape buffalo hunting", and having Balla Balla pop up. I am sure that worked very well for you, and even now I can recall what the site looked like.

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:

Who participate on this forum...???We are all hunters...Professionals, booking agents, trophy hunters, gun lovers, nature lovers, and apparently a couple of hardcore politicians as well...

I think there are others groups of that should be mentioned as well...

The "tyre kickers"... likes of which you may have seen at car lots - inspecting and kicking tyres of cars they can't really afford...demanding test drives and sometimes even signing offers to purchase... just to later back out of the deal with some excuse of having found a better offer or a "financial issue" having come up...

The "quasi hunters" with only 1 or 2 posts who have "just returned from their successful hunts with so and so" (but never gets around to posting pictures or a full report) or who, “suddenly†appears on the AR board to recommends a particular outfitter... when recommendations are asked for and then disappears again…

The "armchair hunters" who are similar to what we call "bar soldiers" over here... guys getting drunk at the bar and then telling you how bravely they fought in this and that war even though the closest they got to any military action was what they saw on TV or heard from real soldiers)... These are the guys who will advise readers on how to plan their safari, who to book with, which rifles to take, what ammo to use etc... even though their "knowledge" is limited to what they read on the forum from other experienced hunters...

There are others as well...

The long and short of things are that in my experience there are essentially 2 types... those who "can" hunt Africa and those who "can't".

Many of those who "can't" fall in the categories I mentioned at the beginning of this post and the reason why most of them can’t is because they can’t afford to. I have come to the conclusion that – generally – price does not play that big a role in having a prospective client deciding to book or not. (If he can’t afford to pay $300 per day he probably can’t afford to pay $280 per day either…)

Many of the ones who "can" have already done so in the past and formed relationships / friendships with their PH's which would prompt them to book with the same PH's again... Probably as many of the ones who "can" are following the advice from posters on this forum to book with someone based on a personal recommendation or only after speaking to agents / outfitters directly at the hunting shows...

So your target market here on AR is unfortunately restricted to the few left who really "can" but does not fall into the last mentioned two categories… and this market is actually pretty small… We have to keep on trying though…

Regards,

Chris Troskie
Tel. +27 82 859-0771
email. chris@ct-safaris.com
Sabrisa Ranch Ellisras RSA
www.ct-safaris.com
https://youtu.be/4usXceRdkH4

quote:

Originally posted by Balla Balla:

So in summary, YES THE INTERNET DOES WORK, OR more correctly, it has worked extremely well for myself and Balla-Balla Safaris the Company ...

Cheers, Peter (based in NZ)

Works for us as well. We don't attend conventions, rarely use an agent or advertise in magazines. All of our business comes from internet enquiries, recommendations, repeat bookings & talking to my friends in the business more and more of them are coming to the decision that whilst the conventions are a lot of fun (& hard work) - they're just toooo expensive. - As Chris says, there are a lot of tyre kickers out there as well, but I guess you just have to put up with that........

Thank you all for the input and comments.

As I thought, there would be some people that does not see it all in the same light as I do. That is the nature of human kind.

I would like to address some of these comments:
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Gecko:
If I based my business on AR advertisements, then I would have to pack my bags and start looking for a job, for my business will not last a week. I was born with a dad that hunted professionally, so please do not try to make my business of as a get rich quick scheme.

I love to share hunting in Africa with foreigners……and therefore try to get as much of them to experience it as possible…..In the process we make a living to keep on doing it…..If you think, by any stretch of your imagination that we get “rich†out of doing it, then think twice.

A career in law, (which I happen to qualified in) would have been much quicker….

There is a way of course to get past your “to good to be true†and get “word of mouthâ€â€¦..Every advertisement will have the invitation to contact a FORUM member as a ref. This forum is a tough place to survive…..if you do not do your job properly….you will commit professional suicide.

I do not NEED hunts to sell on AR. It would be “nice†to sell hunts on the forum though(as I have been doing), without having to pay such a lot of money for advertisements…..I get most of my clientele from writing articles about hunting in SA in European hunting magazines.
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404WJJeffery:

As I have never met you, nor hunted with you, I will fall into the category you quoted as : “Lastly, there are guys I have not met who post here, but based on their tone and attitudes displayed in their posts, I would also avoid themâ€

I do say things as they are, and I am not afraid to tackle problems on this site, if I think they need addressing. If being honest and straight gives you the idea of having an attitude, so be it. Politics does not belong here, as does any form of illegal hunting……..If I see a picture of animal that has been hunted on this site, and I know that animal is protected, I WILL makes sure that the hunter understands the implications. Maybe the hunter did not know that you need a special permit to kill such an animal……If that is attitude, I am thankful that I have plenty of it, for us to classify as conservationist, we need to act the part……..



To all. I never said, or suggested to leave your current PH, that is your friend and confidant…….I tried to ask the guys why they “shop†for an outfitter or hunting place, when all they need is here on AR, with references from members.

And this is regarding PG hunts, not DG.

I did not even mention the tyre kickers Chris, but that’s another story on it’s own…..and we will always have to put up with that, as Steve said…..

Anyone can be an expert Hunter or PH on the internet. All it takes is a lot of extra time repeatedly telling everyone how great you are.

I think this is particularly true of those who want to have you spend your money with them.

Unless a Booking Agent or PH has many, many clients willing to step forward and recommend him he's not for me.

Even a face to face at a Convention only tells you if he is a good BSer.

Recomendatons from people you trust is the best way to go when spending your money, not someone with a quick wit or expert status on the internet.

We've talked about hunters and PHs but we're missing out a link in the chain that a lot of hunters prefer to use. Many hunters like to book through an agent and whilst I rarely deal with agents many safari companies do.

I'd advise anyone looking for a hunt to make sure they communicate directly with the PH they'll be hunting with if at all possible - and if that's impossible, I'd advise them to make sure they communicate with the safari company itself rather than do it all through the agent. There are some very good agents out there (and indeed on this site) and those that are good are worth their weight in gold..... but there are also some useless ones. (all it takes to become an agent is the ability to set up a website and make a few promises) Even the good agents are rarely as familiar with the area(s) as the PH or safari company and they can easily and (often) accidentally give incorrect information and the bad agents will just tell the prospective client whatever he wants to hear.

One way to help tell the good agents from the bad, is research how long he or she has been in the business and how many companies he or she represents.....

infinito, you once again confirmed my thoughts when you said:

quote:

I tried to ask the guys why they “shop†for an outfitter or hunting place, when all they need is here on AR, with references from members.

Here's why:

quote:

I did not even mention the tyre kickers Chris, but that’s another story on it’s own…..and we will always have to put up with that, as Steve said…..

Likewise, we hunters, will always have to put up with second hand 'car salesmen' like some we have all seen so often on this forum.

Like I said before:

quote:

People have choices and if something is made to sound too good, it simply is too good.

And if it wasn't for your dad's business success, both law and hunting, one can only wonder .....

The difference between agents and PHs....to state the obvious:

The agent represents several safari operators and can thus help the client to pick the one which makes most sense for him/her. A good agent will have hunted with each company he represents, or at a minimum will have investigated the destination through past clients. I try to personally experience them all and those that I have not personally hunted with, are identified as such.

The safari company has only one thing to sell, their own hunts.

So while the above post makes a relevant point, ie the PH knows his own hunts better than the agent, and the client should try to talk to the PH directly, I don't agree that the agent alone faces the temptation to tell the client what he wants to hear. In fact, I think the temptation is greater on the part of the safari co.

I have come across Safari cos that follow a churn and burn strategy. They rev up the marketing engine so they get a steady stream of clients. These companies often have very slick websites, videos, etc. The hunts aren't great but who cares if that client doesn't come back...there's always a line of clients at the door.

Two final points: PHs are not easy to get a hold of, at any time of the year but especially during hunting season. So if a client wants answers fast, and wants to talk to someone by phone without a lot of frustration and cost, an agent can come in pretty handy.

And when a hunt goes badly, an agent can intervene and sort out the mess. If a safari co is getting a good deal of business through an agent, they are less likely to blow him off than they are one unhappy client who is never going to come back anyway.

The easiest and safest way to find a hunt is to use a couple of agents to help you define your hunt and to narrow down the search; then to talk to the safari cos that offer the kind of hunt you want; then to pick one; and finally to GET REFERENCES!!

Just thought a little balance to the prior posting was warranted.