I have no idea that anyone is offering farm bred elephants!!??

Hippos, I never consider as a hunt really.

One shoots hippos, not hunt them.

quote:

One shoots hippos, not hunt them.

You need to spend some time with your friend MS

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

One shoots hippos, not hunt them.

You need to spend some time with your friend MS

There is hunting and there is bullshit!

Mark Sullivan knows nothing about hunting.

He is just a master at bullshit

.

Saeed,

I beg to differ - stalked into a grazing hippo bull a couple of years back. Over 1 km stalking, crawling and waiting. Finally got him from 15-20 meters. That was a hunt!!

As too buff - will take the old, broken, battled dagga boy over inches every time! Having said that, the best days buff hunting I ever ahead we tracked a single bull for 11 hours, bumped him twice but never saw him and called it a day when the sun went down. Fantastic tracking, walked miles and the buff kept the breeze on his hind quarters all day!

.

The existence and viability of wild Cape Buffalo herds in Africa has been and will always be at odds with domestic farming and meat protein production ! This purely because the Cape Buffalo is the reservoir for many diseases that have the capability of totally annihilating a country's domestic bovine herd.

So from this perspective Africa's domestic herds had and still have to be physically separated from buffalo and historically large scale events like the Rinderpest Epidemic of the late 1800's and the taming of Malaria allowed for the expansion of the grazing and habitation of lands previously occupied by Buffalo.

If we look at the Lexicon of place and farm names in South Africa we see that buffalo occurred over a very large part of the country but were eradicated because of their threat to the domestic herd.

This sadly is the dilemma of conservation !

Smaller and smaller areas in which wild buffalo can exist and of late the added pressure of disease spreading from the domestic herd to buffalo ( Bovine TB as example). With the decline of a robust veterinary protocol in post colonial Africa Bovine TB has become a problem and is now threatening susceptible wildlife populations.

The notion of farm rearing disease free buffalo should is possibly the only way forward to save the buffalo from certain extinction.

So for anyone who proclaims themselves to be a true hunter attacking efforts to preserve a species from impending doom leaves me at a loss and does not seem logical.

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie64:
.

Saeed,

I beg to differ - stalked into a grazing hippo bull a couple of years back. Over 1 km stalking, crawling and waiting. Finally got him from 15-20 meters. That was a hunt!!

As too buff - will take the old, broken, battled dagga boy over inches every time! Having said that, the best days buff hunting I ever ahead we tracked a single bull for 11 hours, bumped him twice but never saw him and called it a day when the sun went down. Fantastic tracking, walked miles and the buff kept the breeze on his hind quarters all day!

.

I have had a few scraps with hippos in the forests too.

But, generally hippos are very easy to shoot.

Mind you, I have heard of people making a real meal of it!

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
And let us not forget the simple fact that buffalo hunters, who appreciate what that is, will never hunt one on a farm anyway!

Lion and buffalo on a farm?


No problems with plains game.

But never lion or buffalo.

These require a proper hunt in the wild.

How about elephant and hippo? I've seen these offered on private enclosures.
Cal

Canned elephant hunting must be the new thing in SA...lol

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
And let us not forget the simple fact that buffalo hunters, who appreciate what that is, will never hunt one on a farm anyway!

Sorry but once again, I beg to differ.

While there is no real comparison between RSA farm buffalo hunts and wild concession hunts, one can have a hell of a good time hunting buffalo on RSA farms. I've done both numerous times and can say they each offer a great time, albeit not the same experience.

I've hunted buffalo on RSA farms 3 times. I left empty handed twice! On farms, they are 100% switched on and know exactly what the sound of the hunting cruiser means. I think I walked more on those farm hunts then I ever did on concession hunts. And if they ever caught sight or got the faintest whiff of your scent, they were gone for good. Of course this means the farm size has to be significant, which in the case of my hunts, was 11,000 and 10,000 respectively.

One of the big differences on farm hunts is you are typically targeting a single animal vs sorting through a herd or looking over different dugga boys but that in no way means it's a done deal.

I would never ever hunt buffalo on a farm, unless it has an open boundary With Kruger because then it‘s part of the national park. For 2019 I have booked a buffalo hunt at Bubye Valley Conservancy.

Problem of hunting buffalo on a farm, regardless of size, is I KNOW IT IS FARM BRED!

It has nothing to do with how difficult it is

The knowledge that is on a farm is enough for me not to hunt it.

I have no problems with hunting plains game on a farm.

It is just my own feeling, and I have absolutely no objection to anyone doing otherwise.

Just like lions.

I hunt them in the wild.

Never on a farm.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Problem of hunting buffalo on a farm, regardless of size, is I KNOW IT IS FARM BRED!

It has nothing to do with how difficult it is

The knowledge that is on a farm is enough for me not to hunt it.

Another point where we disagree Saeed. I don't have any issue with WHERE a buffalo was bred.

Going back to my first post on this thread, I only care about the quality of the experience. Of course, the experience of a farm hunted buffalo is different from the experience of a wild concession hunt. I like them both, but they are different.

I do care about the difficulty. Maybe "difficulty" isn't the right word as I'm not the type that can't enjoy sitting in a box blind hunting whitetail deer over a corn feeder. It's a nice way to spend a relaxing morning or afternoon. But for me, with buffalo, I enjoy the tracking, the walking, the effort trying to maneuver into position for a close shot with an open sighted double.

On that second ranch hunt where I went home empty handed, my son and I had hunted hard for 7 days. We had untold number of blown stalks and walked miles and miles. Toward the end of day 7, we had crawled to within about 30 yards of a bull and 2 cows. The reason for being so close was that the cover was too thick to get a shot. Wind was perfect and it looked like we were finally going to get a shot. Then the bull saw the slightest movement, stopped his head movement in mid toss and stared us down. I knew right away the jig was up. Sure enough, they took off. We were both dejected.

The next morning, by happenstance, with my son and I on the back of the cruiser, we just happened to come around a corner and found ourselves in the middle of a herd crossing the road. We could have easily jumped off and hammered two without issue. But knowing the effort we had put in to that point, neither of us wanted to finish the hunt in that manner. So we passed.

We hunted the rest of the day and my son got his buff about an hour before dark. I didn't get one but man did we ever have a great time chasing them around, trying to come up with a strategy that would put us in place for a shot. That particular year, I only had funds to do a ranch hunt if I wanted to take my son on a buffalo hunt and in that regard, it was a great experience. He's now out on his own and doing well and we are going back summer of 2019, this time with Buzz for the real thing.

Bubye is just a large farm ...

quote:

Problem of hunting buffalo on a farm, regardless of size, is I KNOW IT IS FARM BRED!

Similar to canned Lions - raised on a doctored high protein diet which results in a relatively young animal producing features not readily found in its naturally wild cousins.

I've done both, hunting buffalo, farm hunts on a large properly can be every bit as demanding as wild hunts, every bit. I've gone home empty handed from both.

.

If i ever shot a buffalo, I'd want one like that or a broken horn.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Here is one I took not along ago.I am going to have a shoulder mount done.His steaks were a little tough but still delicious

[URL= ]dagga[/URL]

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
If i ever shot a buffalo, I'd want one like that or a broken horn.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Here is one I took not along ago.I am going to have a shoulder mount done.His steaks were a little tough but still delicious

[URL= ]dagga[/URL]

I am sure some enterprising farm owner in South Africa will be happy to provide you with one.

They might even employ a world famous American to remove the ear tag and, polish the boss, and break a horn for you.

All legal, of course

By "world famous American" are you referring to me?

I've only shot one buffalo in South Africa and the ear tags were in place when I killed him. The ear tags allowed me to pick out my bull at the feed lot in the darkness using spot light and to shoot between the rails of the fence.

I hope I cleared this matter to your satisfaction.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:

quote:

but studies show a decrease in the quality of buffalo trophies,

So decades of hunting the larger bulls and passing on the smaller bulls has changed the natural mix of the two?

I agree. I'm not buying it.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
If i ever shot a buffalo, I'd want one like that or a broken horn.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Here is one I took not along ago.I am going to have a shoulder mount done.His steaks were a little tough but still delicious

[URL= ]dagga[/URL]

I am sure some enterprising farm owner in South Africa will be happy to provide you with one.

They might even employ a world famous American to remove the ear tag and, polish the boss, and break a horn for you.

All legal, of course

Sorry, Saeed, but I don't understand if you're making a joke or trying to make a point.

quote:

Originally posted by Ske1eter:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
If i ever shot a buffalo, I'd want one like that or a broken horn.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Here is one I took not along ago.I am going to have a shoulder mount done.His steaks were a little tough but still delicious

[URL= ]dagga[/URL]

I am sure some enterprising farm owner in South Africa will be happy to provide you with one.

They might even employ a world famous American to remove the ear tag and, polish the boss, and break a horn for you.

All legal, of course

Sorry, Saeed, but I don't understand if you're making a joke or trying to make a point.

Nah, he's just looking for a way to continue venting his Mark Sullivan hatred. Nothing more.

It's really sad that he has to resort to this. If I'm not mistaken, George took this great buffalo in Zim with Rich Tabor. The photo has nothing to do with RSA farm hunts and Saeed's comment actually just insults Naki for making a simple comment that he'd be happy with an old warrior bull like George's.

Sad.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Ske1eter:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
If i ever shot a buffalo, I'd want one like that or a broken horn.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Here is one I took not along ago.I am going to have a shoulder mount done.His steaks were a little tough but still delicious

[URL= ]dagga[/URL]

I am sure some enterprising farm owner in South Africa will be happy to provide you with one.

They might even employ a world famous American to remove the ear tag and, polish the boss, and break a horn for you.

All legal, of course

Sorry, Saeed, but I don't understand if you're making a joke or trying to make a point.

Nah, he's just looking for a way to continue venting his Mark Sullivan hatred. Nothing more.

It's really sad that he has to resort to this. If I'm not mistaken, George took this great buffalo in Zim with Rich Tabor. The photo has nothing to do with RSA farm hunts and Saeed's comment actually just insults Naki for making a simple comment that he'd be happy with an old warrior bull like George's.

Sad.

Thanks, I was obviously wondering.

I know that I tried my one and only buffalo hunt on a property in RSA. I wanted to try my hand at taking one with a handgun and it was anything but a cake-walk. My shot was less than perfect and I spent two and a half days and 25 miles trying to recover the critter. Ultimately, I wasn't able to get it by the time I had to leave but the PH on the property was able to correct my failure days later. I was elated that the big beast was taken; relieved of its misery due to my failing, etc. I know that can happen on a hunt and I was distraught when I couldn't retrieve it myself. But the point being that just because it was on a property in RSA, it wasn't easy......just the way I wanted. Well worth the effort.

George hunted this buffalo the right way, and he should be proud of it.

Naki posted that he would like to shoot one just like it, so I offered my advice of where he might be able to get one.


Mark Sullivan is already in South Africa conducting illegal hunts, on a farm.

And knowing all his past performance, I am sure with the right sort of money he will be happy to break a horn tip and polish them to anyone's desire.

I am sure he will do a youtube video and say it is the best polished buffalo horns he had ever done!

Todd,

I do not hate anyone.

I just find it very hard to accept fakes

Saeed:
Myself and several others would like to publically thank you for keeping the name of Mark Sullivan to the front line here on AR. Even on threads that are not about Mark, you manage to slip his name in there. You're the best!

Several members have contacted me asking for information about Mark and hunting with him. I have invited all that contact me to be in camp with me in 2019. I'm sure if Mark were here he would thank you personally for giving him as much business as you do. I bet you have earned yourself a substiantially discounted with Mark if you wish.

Cheers from -20 C this morning in Alaska.
Cal

I just want to make sure everyone is aware of the fact that he is operating illegally in South Africa!

As the old saying goes “buyer beware”.

He has gravitated from faking buffalo charges to working without a license on a farm in South Africa.

Natural progression for anyone who has been pretending to be a professional hunter, while insulting both his clients and his peers!

Best of luck for like minded idiots who wish to “hunt” with him

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Cal,

I take hunting as it comes.

If I have to follow buffalo for days on end, I have no problem with it.

If I see a bull while driving, I have absolutely no reservations of jumping out and shooting it.


It is hunting.

And one has absolutely no control over it.

Of course, hunting ear tagged farm buffalo is a different matter altogether.

It cannot be called hunting as far as I am concerned.

I did go to South Africa, twice, to shoot farm animals, some from the back of the truck.

It is not really hunting, but that is how they do it there, and I loved every minute of it.

A lesson to be learned here IMO. The best time to kill something is when you see it...period! Stop all the shenanigans and be ready to be a killer!!!

Farm hunts.

You are purists and I respect that. I am a purist too. Not many folks have carried a pack as far as my wife and I have, above the timber line in the Canadian Rockies.

Now that Sandy and I are old and on a budget, we are very thankful that there are farms in South Africa that we can still get a taste of African hunting on, and bring our family to, including grand children.

I am grateful for the great farms that my family and I hunt on and can still afford to keep going back to. Farm hunting is what you make of it and there are different kinds of farm hunting experiences. Some are shitty and some are awesome.
( And I have been to both kind.)

Each day of my farm hunt, I happily stumble around in the bushveld with my single shot big bore, stalking buffalo that are are way to spooky. My family does the same seeking their game, either with a rifle or camera. Then we all meet back in camp at the end of the day for a braii in the boma, to share our adventures. How good is that? The ages range from 9 years old the 73. We are very fortunate to have all kinds of hunting in Africa.

I would like to add.

Notice to Outfitters and PH's:

Please, if any of you know of an affordable no-fenced, buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe for poor old folks like myself, please PM me. I will book it! I am not a trophy hunter any more. I love hunting cows! Thanks, Brian

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Canada:
Farm hunts.

You are purists and I respect that. I am a purist too. Not many folks have carried a pack as far as my wife and I have, above the timber line in the Canadian Rockies.

Now that Sandy and I are old and on a budget, we are very thankful that there are farms in South Africa that we can still get a taste of African hunting on, and bring our family to, including grand children.

I am grateful for the great farms that my family and I hunt on and can still afford to keep going back to. Farm hunting is what you make of it and there are different kinds of farm hunting experiences. Some are shitty and some are awesome.
( And I have been to both kind.)

Each day of my farm hunt, I happily stumble around in the bushveld with my single shot big bore, stalking buffalo that are are way to spooky. My family does the same seeking their game, either with a rifle or camera. Then we all meet back in camp at the end of the day for a braii in the boma, to share our adventures. How good is that? The ages range from 9 years old the 73. We are very fortunate to have all kinds of hunting in Africa.

I would like to add.

Notice to Outfitters and PH's:

Please, if any of you know of an affordable no-fenced, buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe for poor old folks like myself, please PM me. I will book it! I am not a trophy hunter any more. I love hunting cows! Thanks, Brian

Brian:
Very well put. Thank you.
Saeed does not have a problem with hunting in SA. His problem is any and all to do with MS. I think 99% of the folks here and in the hunting world would agree with you.

Another point on SA hunting that was mentioned to me by a well-known Zimbabwe PH is that SA hunting is what hooks many hunters who then go on to hunt Zimbabwe and other countries.

Thanks again for a great post.
Cal

Much thanks, Cal.

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Canada:
Farm hunts.

You are purists and I respect that. I am a purist too. Not many folks have carried a pack as far as my wife and I have, above the timber line in the Canadian Rockies.

Now that Sandy and I are old and on a budget, we are very thankful that there are farms in South Africa that we can still get a taste of African hunting on, and bring our family to, including grand children.

I am grateful for the great farms that my family and I hunt on and can still afford to keep going back to. Farm hunting is what you make of it and there are different kinds of farm hunting experiences. Some are shitty and some are awesome.
( And I have been to both kind.)

Each day of my farm hunt, I happily stumble around in the bushveld with my single shot big bore, stalking buffalo that are are way to spooky. My family does the same seeking their game, either with a rifle or camera. Then we all meet back in camp at the end of the day for a braii in the boma, to share our adventures. How good is that? The ages range from 9 years old the 73. We are very fortunate to have all kinds of hunting in Africa.

I would like to add.

Notice to Outfitters and PH's:

Please, if any of you know of an affordable no-fenced, buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe for poor old folks like myself, please PM me. I will book it! I am not a trophy hunter any more. I love hunting cows! Thanks, Brian

Brian,

Your last sentence proves that there is no difference between us.

I like to hunt.

And hunting buffalo is right at the top of my list.

And as long as I can do it in the wild, I will do it.

Hunting buffalo in wild is a totally different experience.

And that is the part that cannot be compared with hunting one on a farm.

No way I would ever hunt a buff on a farm. No one should think that’s even an option.

I think the problem is where to draw the line.
What is an acceptable size for a farm or ranch to hunt on? In the 1990s I was offered an elk hunt on a "ranch" in Wyoming. 10 1/2 acres1 It was a joke.

The Sanctuary in Michigan (I think) offers 3000 deer in a fenced area. Trohpy size is guaranteed. Years ago a gent here in Alaska shot a white rhino in SA. It was photographed and measured in advance and a written grarantee was given stating the size of the horn and its placement in SCI.

On the other end are huge concessions in Zimbabwe that are fenced but are truly fair chase.

In the middle would be hunts like I expereinced in SA and Zimbabwe where the property is fanced but if one walks, one won't see the fencing.

In think there is room for both.
Cal

We all know that a "wild" hunt is way better than a farm hunt. That is obvious.

I am now in a phase of my life where a farm hunt for my whole family is what I want.
Grand kids grow up fast. In my little world, hunting has never been for just one member of the family. For other it is. That's cool with me. Whatever blows your hair back.

Strong rigid opinions on the matter don't interest me.
Brian

I agree that shootaway's buff is a fantastic trophy, but even a trophy like that is better if it is wider IMO.

I love those thick worn down horns and heavy boss, but I would rather shoot a buff like that with a 43" of worn down horns, than 34" of worn down horns.

I would suspect most would opt for the wider buff if the price were the same.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
I agree that shootaway's buff is a fantastic trophy, but even a trophy like that is better if it is wider IMO.

I love those thick worn down horns and heavy boss, but I would rather shoot a buff like that with a 43" of worn down horns, than 34" of worn down horns.

I would suspect most would opt for the wider buff if the price were the same.

BH63

My opinion is that it is hard to find a 40+ inch dagga with big bosses etc...They are shot but here and there.That is unless you go to Masailand or unless the hunt has been staged.
Everyone has their own style of hunting.I will get info on areas then pick one that suits my style.That said I really enjoy being out in a wild area even if they are not so wild today.

It does not matter if a bull is 45” and hard or 34” and hard; the hunt is what counts !
If one has a great hunt and finally shoots a 34” hard big boss bull then that is a trophy compared to stepping out of a vehicle and shoot a 45” hard bull – that should never go on the wall.
A trophy is nothing more than a memory of a good hunt. The hunt is important and not the inches !

Rather interesting how width has become so un-important for buffalo trophies according to many in the industry, but "hard boss" is still very important.

If "hard bossed" bulls become more and more scarce, I bet many outfitters will start talking about how a hard boss is not important.

Perhaps it will reach a stage that for any trophy animal (buffalo, ellie, lion, leopard, etc), only the size of the testicles will become the measure of a "trophy" animal?

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
I agree that shootaway's buff is a fantastic trophy, but even a trophy like that is better if it is wider IMO.

I love those thick worn down horns and heavy boss, but I would rather shoot a buff like that with a 43" of worn down horns, than 34" of worn down horns.

I would suspect most would opt for the wider buff if the price were the same.

BH63

My opinion is that it is hard to find a 40+ inch dagga with big bosses etc...They are shot but here and there.That is unless you go to Masailand or unless the hunt has been staged.
Everyone has their own style of hunting.I will get info on areas then pick one that suits my style.That said I really enjoy being out in a wild area even if they are not so wild today.

Damned hard to find in Zim..........Iv'e killed two in South Africa over 43" not on farms.....

One on the first morning of the first day and one in the last hour of the last day,,,,,


.

Any measure of a trophy should be age, nothing else.

And yes one can still find big buff in Zim. My first ever bull was 43" (127 SCI - I was told) shot in Deka.
This year we seen many hard bulls over 40" and even a 45" heard bull in Matetsi 1.
So they are still out there.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Actually, there are many of us "more discerning hunters" trying to get the most out of their hunting bucks wanting the best hunting EXPERIENCE regardless of the animal's spread.



[/QUOTE]

Yup. I agree.

I have killed a pile of buffalo including plenty over 40. My best experience was on a bull that was probably 37. I would not trade that experience for the world.

My widest was 46.5, taken 5 minutes out of camp the first day of a hunt. I much prefer the 37.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Actually, there are many of us "more discerning hunters" trying to get the most out of their hunting bucks wanting the best hunting EXPERIENCE regardless of the animal's spread.

Yup. I agree.

I have killed a pile of buffalo including plenty over 40. My best experience was on a bull that was probably 37. I would not trade that experience for the world.

My widest was 46.5, taken 5 minutes out of camp the first day of a hunt. I much prefer the 37.[/QUOTE]


That sums it up ! Exactly. This inch crap must stop. Its not a competition its the hunting experience. Some people just don't get it.