Shootaway is on my blocked list so I hadn't seen this before. On the one hand, I fail to see the humor in this, but on the other, Medved has a valid point. No one likes being laughed at. Which is another of the reasons Shootaway is on my blocked list.

quote:

Originally posted by scruffy:
Some years back I was at a bed and breakfast in Harare chatting with a chap who had just flown charter for the season in Tanzania. He was a retired airline pilot. He told me that the safari outfit was very bitter that he charged them so much for the service - but then added on 100% on the client's tab ....

you nail it. have seen in quebec and yukon that GO are not charging the flying hours you pay directly to the company. doesnt mean they dont receive money back from the airline lol ...

I should specify, the reason is I don't want to laugh at him. It would be undignified for me and potentially humiliating for him.

A mate of mine owns a 206 and all told it costs him about $400 a flying hour and yes he has it serviced in South Africa. The local charter companies charge somewhere in the region of $1,000 for the same plane and considering their additional overheads, pilots salaries etc this is not too bad.

Putting on a commission on services such as charters and dip & pack is disdainful and therefore I rather put the client directly in contact with the service provider and if they can negotiate a better price then good on them.

Some have to go to Tanzania for specific species but for my money I would hunt Zim, Mozambique and Zambia for DG, especially for a good hard headed Buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
I AM DOING a HUNT IN Cameroon in 2 weeks time just got pricing for one way charter into camp 12 000 euro!! and back another 12 000!! That is euro not USD!! I am obviously in the wrong business!!!

Go now as the euro is now almost 1:1 to the $!!!!

I doubt charter operators add much more than a 40% - 50% mark-up to their cost. Maybe some find tha too high? Yes they do give out commissions to service providers to attract their business - probably around 20% - that comes off their mark-up. Many businesses operate that way so nothing strange or immoral there in my view.

Commissions in pretty much all businesses are perfectly legitimate and if they weren't, hunting agents, travel agents and the like wouldn't exist - I think part of the problem is a lot of people fail to understand that the hunting industry is an industry just like any other and the operators need to make money.

However, although I've said it before, it bears saying again: What the SGR needs is a similar service to Masailand where companies use small aircraft such as Caravans to operate scheduled routes around the area and sell seat price flights instead of charter price flights.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
I doubt charter operators add much more than a 40% - 50% mark-up to their cost. Maybe some find tha too high? Yes they do give out commissions to service providers to attract their business - probably around 20% - that comes off their mark-up. Many businesses operate that way so nothing strange or immoral there in my view.

Oh I get it now. We call that corruption down here.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

I doubt charter operators add much more than a 40% - 50% mark-up to their cost. Maybe some find tha too high? Yes they do give out commissions to service providers to attract their business - probably around 20% - that comes off their mark-up. Many businesses operate that way so nothing strange or immoral there in my view.

Oh I get it now. We call that corruption down here.

Andrew,

Would that statement qualify all hunting, travel, and commission agents as corrupt individuals?

Not to mention the PH that secures a hunt on the outfitter's behalf of course.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
I doubt charter operators add much more than a 40% - 50% mark-up to their cost. Maybe some find tha too high? Yes they do give out commissions to service providers to attract their business - probably around 20% - that comes off their mark-up. Many businesses operate that way so nothing strange or immoral there in my view.

Oh I get it now. We call that corruption down here.

+1

Funny You say that Andrew. I found the Air prices most reasonable when we hunted together in Zambia.

Jeff

If it's corruption for a charter company to pay commission then it's the same when a hunting company pays a commission to a hunting agent, an airline to a travel agent or any company that produces anything to a salesman..... quite simply, it's part of normal business and there are no end of examples of it happening.

Commissions are perfectly legitimate and anyone who doesn't know they get paid in most businesses is (without meaning to insult anyone) extremely naive.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

I doubt charter operators add much more than a 40% - 50% mark-up to their cost. Maybe some find tha too high? Yes they do give out commissions to service providers to attract their business - probably around 20% - that comes off their mark-up. Many businesses operate that way so nothing strange or immoral there in my view.

Oh I get it now. We call that corruption down here.

Andrew,

Would that statement qualify all hunting, travel, and commission agents as corrupt individuals?

Not to mention the PH that secures a hunt on the outfitter's behalf of course.

So the math on a $15k tz buff hunt w/ 15k charter and a 20 percent commission to outfitter is 3k.

Now I assume that the commission is a total $ dollar profit more than the hunt itself.

More I hear about tz the less I want to ever hunt there regardless of the game on license or scenery or herds of buffalo or dead elephant carcasses.


Mike

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
If it's corruption for a charter company to pay commission then it's the same when a hunting company pays a commission to a hunting agent, an airline to a travel agent or any company that produces anything to a salesman..... quite simply, it's part of normal business and there are no end of examples of it happening.

Commissions are perfectly legitimate and anyone who doesn't know they get paid in most businesses is (without meaning to insult anyone) extremely naive.

Is there any competition between different air charter operators ? Does the outfitter give the client a choice between different companies or different quality of air charter operators ? Why should the outfitter not push the highehest cost highest commission paying air charter company ?

If outfitters are just profit maximizing business (as they should be ) - let's drop this whole bs we have about hubting as conservation. The only reason we have conservation is because the business are profit maximizing over time. When there are hidden commission paybacks ect - 50 percent markups and other swell stuff - it is highly unlikely anyone is thinking long term.

Hunting business more and more looks like just another touristy venture.

Mike

No business, which has competition, can afford offering 50% commission.

There are several charter companies in Tanzania, so there is competition.

The number of times I have been asked if one can save the commission by booking directly with the PH, rather than through an agent, is numerous.

My answer has always been the price should be the same.

Otherwise if the PH offered a cheaper hunt when someone books through him, no agent will send him any clients.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
I doubt charter operators add much more than a 40% - 50% mark-up to their cost. Maybe some find tha too high? Yes they do give out commissions to service providers to attract their business - probably around 20% - that comes off their mark-up. Many businesses operate that way so nothing strange or immoral there in my view.

Oh I get it now. We call that corruption down here.

+1

Funny You say that Andrew. I found the Air prices most reasonable when we hunted together in Zambia.

Jeff

Because I don't want a commission. I did not earn it.

I've never heard of any charter company offering anything like 20% commission and 5-7.5% would from my personal experience be closer to the mark and although I can't speak for individual companies, many (including us) would usually simply quote the client the cheaper rate and not bother with the commission simply because the lower he can get those costs the more chance there is of selling the safari but one must remember that a cheap charter is like a cheap hunt....... as illustrated in the pics I posted earlier.

Is there competition between companies? - Yes. Of course there is but as mentioned in my previous para, cheapest ain't best and most sensible outfitters won't opt for cheapest charter for the obvious reason.

I fail to understand why some people fail to understand that African hunting is a business........ Do they not understand the simple fact that every PH, Outfitter and even trackers, cooks and laundry boys have bills to pay, children to educate, vehicles to buy and maintain, houses to pay off and wives to look after.

I was in the business one way or another for 33 years and in all that time, I doubt I ever met a single person in that business who had gotten rich from running hunting safaris. Sure, they pay the bills but not many have much left over at the end of the month.

If someone wants to get rich, they should become a lawyer a banker or get involved in something like the motor spares business not hunting safaris.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
If it's corruption for a charter company to pay commission then it's the same when a hunting company pays a commission to a hunting agent, an airline to a travel agent or any company that produces anything to a salesman..... quite simply, it's part of normal business and there are no end of examples of it happening.

Commissions are perfectly legitimate and anyone who doesn't know they get paid in most businesses is (without meaning to insult anyone) extremely naive.

Steve,

Much that I say is tongue in cheek mate but I simply do not take commissions on any service from hotels, charters to dip & pack. I rather choose what I feel is best suited to the client and save him a few bob in doing so.

It may pay some clients to enquire directly with charter companies to see what is the best cash deal of offer?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

Steve,

Much that I say is tongue in cheek mate but I simply do not take commissions on any service from hotels, charters to dip & pack. I rather choose what I feel is best suited to the client and save him a few bob in doing so.

It may pay some clients to enquire directly with charter companies to see what is the best cash deal of offer?

Mate, I never suggested that you do and whether you do or not is none of my business and even if you do, there's nothing wrong with that........... my point is that some here are suggesting it's dishonest for someone to pay or receive commissions and I'm just pointing out that they're wrong and that commissions are a normal part or everyday life and business in pretty much all businesses.

As long as Tanzania continues to shoot themselves in the cods with these absurd charter prices, they can carry on without me. I have turned down some nice deals and would love to go back there, but I am just not going to stand for it.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

Steve,

Much that I say is tongue in cheek mate but I simply do not take commissions on any service from hotels, charters to dip & pack. I rather choose what I feel is best suited to the client and save him a few bob in doing so.

It may pay some clients to enquire directly with charter companies to see what is the best cash deal of offer?

Mate, I never suggested that you do and whether you do or not is none of my business and even if you do, there's nothing wrong with that........... my point is that some here are suggesting it's dishonest for someone to pay or receive commissions and I'm just pointing out that they're wrong and that commissions are a normal part or everyday life and business in pretty much all businesses.

Steve,

it was not hunting and less not in africa but our ice fishing business that we ran in quebec was never affiliated with any kind of commissions nor will it be hotel, restaurant, shop or any air companies.

as Andrew we were giving suggestions to our clients but nothing related with money nor we accept free journalists or tv host. we didnt need it . it was small but as you it was paying the bills ...

commission is always as tricky discussion as the tips .... have you ever tipped a lawyer, a store owner, a shop owner? ... the circle is like a boomerang always coming back.

enjoy your day.

Phil

Phil,

I don't disagree but the fact is that the African hunting safari business is a tough one to be in.

What with agents wanting obscene commissions (and on top of that, often trying to squeeze you for a free hunt or free animals), conventions, hunt donations, insurances, licences, permits, umpteen govt fees for Christ knows what, expensive vehicles, hard terrain, long distances, high prices for everything from areas to fuel to food to school fees to security and anti poaching costs, prices are always going to be high whether we like it or not.

If people want to see prices drop in any significant manner the whole industry would need to change entirely and go back to basics where there are no agents, no conventions, no hunt donations etc etc etc and that just ain't ever going to happen.

As I said earlier, it's a vicious circle.

I'll add that a good example of the legitimacy of the commission principle is that pretty much every hotel in the world from the largest, most expensive chains to the most humble sole property have both Scheduled Tour Operator (STO) and rack rates simply to ensure travel agents etc will book with them rather than the hotel down the road.

The difference Steve is that it is common knowledge that certain entities are compensated via commission. After chartering planes for over 25 years, this is the first I ever heard of a safari company getting a commission.

And who says the outfitter won't pass along to the client the net rate after the commission?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
And who says the outfitter won't pass along to the client the net rate after the commission?

Sure they will. They always do

Are dip and back and other services TZ inflated ?

Mike

This charter issue in TZ (and others) is simply becoming LAUGHABLE!! When quoted, I always say "I don't want to buy your plane, just use if for a few hours!!"
I have owned and flown charter type aircraft for years (personally) and chartered a lot for various reasons NOT related to hunting....including such as Cessna 206 and Caravans. Until the fuel prices went to the sky you could fly a 206 for well under $100/hour with reserves for overhaul, maintenance, insurance, etc., if you owned the plane. Caravans are a different story with a purchase price about 10X a Cessna 206...or even older Cessna twins.
Seems to me that often Safari companies are faced with using low volume operators vs the photo safari companies that fly hundreds of hours a season and spread the costs. Doing flying photo safaris are not that expensive compared to Hunting Safari Charter prices.
Everyone needs to make a (reasonable) profit or they shouldn't be in business...and safety is the key in the flying business. You can't cut corners and be safe and successful!
Seems we might be getting charged the prices of Caravans when 206's would work fine...because that's what they offer!!
Another problem is the fast/now nature of the busy hunter these days demanding fast in/out....and they are willing and have paid the piper dearly...and don't twitch....leaving the rest of us mortals trying to meet the standard they have set...."WE ALL AIN'T THE SAME" when it comes to need for speed, on demand, and bottomless check books....we just need to SAY NO when it comes to ridiculous charter fees. The Outfitters will wake up sooner or maybe later when they don't get the bookings...and figure out it is the Charter cost that is the barrier!!
Frankly, being a pilot, and very concerned about maintenance and other pilot qualifications, I often choose the land transfers....and see the country up close, and enjoy the trip....who knows what you might see, you can't shoot from the Airplane!!
Alternatively, I also like the creative Outfitter that INCLUDES the Charter in the hunt price....and his hunt prices are still competitive.....HUMMMM??
I vote for the previous comments on expensive charters- Just SAY NO!!
Cheers,

It is not the hunting charters that brings the bacon home - I cannot give the exact figures but I would guess it might be 10% of their turnover.

With this in mind, they couldn't care less if you use their services or not - they have all the clients they need and therefore in a position to call the shots.

In fact, a number of them are doing the hunting companies a favour by flying into beaten up or poorly maintained airstrips (most of which are) where undercarriages in particular get their life spans greatly reduced with each landing.

Running a charter company in TZ is not as easy as some posters make it out to be - you cannot imagine the hassles involved and most certainly cannot make a comparison between TZ and the US or Alaska.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
And who says the outfitter won't pass along to the client the net rate after the commission?

Sure they will. They always do

Are dip and back and other services TZ inflated ?

Mike

Of course they are. Have you not heard that Tz is over priced, corrupt and full of thieves?

It will be interesting to see Zambias safari rates with concessions going for $200k a year? I remember they used to be fairly similar to Tz rates not so long ago.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

It's the easiest way to offer a hunt discount to the client

If one looked at how some of the concessions were "split/stolen" one would not trust much about TZ. I am sure it was all due process and above board .

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
And who says the outfitter won't pass along to the client the net rate after the commission?

Sure they will. They always do

Are dip and back and other services TZ inflated ?

Mike

Of course they are. Have you not heard that Tz is over priced, corrupt and full of thieves?

It will be interesting to see Zambias safari rates with concessions going for $200k a year? I remember they used to be fairly similar to Tz rates not so long ago.

I am doing a hunt this NOV in Zambia - its a group hunt and I have the lowest daily rates I have ever seen in hunting Africa.

The outfitter also is arranging to charter a plane that cost less than anywhere else I have seen.

I saw the emails between the ph/outfitter and flight company - ph was doing all he could to get us the lowest rate possible.

Andrew/fairgame is a stand up guy - from the hunt pricing to the charter pricing.

Mike

It is my understanding that the gas business in SE Tanzania has put pressure on aircraft charter prices in recent years. I am not sure the commitments of the O&G companies to current projects, but with O&G prices down it seems charter prices may be coming down in the next few months.

I have flown through Dar twice in the last month. While taxing by the old terminal it seems there were more planes on the ground than normal. Is it possible the charter bubble has developed a leak?

quote:

Originally posted by AilsaWheels:
It is my understanding that the gas business in SE Tanzania has put pressure on aircraft charter prices in recent years. I am not sure the commitments of the O&G companies to current projects, but with O&G prices down it seems charter prices may be coming down in the next few months.

I have flown through Dar twice in the last month. While taxing by the old terminal it seems there were more planes on the ground than normal. Is it possible the charter bubble has developed a leak?

The O&G usage of charter flights was negligible.

quote:

Originally posted by AilsaWheels:
It is my understanding that the gas business in SE Tanzania has put pressure on aircraft charter prices in recent years. I am not sure the commitments of the O&G companies to current projects, but with O&G prices down it seems charter prices may be coming down in the next few months.

I have flown through Dar twice in the last month. While taxing by the old terminal it seems there were more planes on the ground than normal. Is it possible the charter bubble has developed a leak?

AW:

O&G prices have got nothing to do with the allocated budgets these conglomerates have on hand for exploration activities nor are they very particular on how it is being spent; the bottom line is that they HAVE to spend it.

At present the seismography teams have concluded their business and I assume the drilling teams will come in next.

Seeing a whole bunch of planes on the ground in one go is not necessarily an indicator of bad business - had you taxied by an hour or two later you may have found half the number.