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One of Us |
I can see both sides. Game farming has saved species and game farms need hunters. It is really agriculture and is no less humane than slaughter of domestic species. On the other hand I am a solely free-range fair-chase hunter with no desire for the other. With all this said...if I learned one thing while running the Lion Conservation Task Force...it was that we needed to stand together. For example: We were very close to stopping the lion uplist which led to lion import ban which in turn paved the way to the ivory ban. We (Aaron and I with LCTF) failed because we did not convince SCI to endorse our definition of what we thought a Huntable Male Lion should be. Failing with that diplomacy derailed our whole agenda in the end as previously explained. My advice is to NOT alienate and don’t try to shame people into ethnics as one group sees them. Conversely...educate and be inclusive. It is a very fine line to walk. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Just a question Lane, but was the deer your son recently shot and you shared the story on here, was it shot from a blind overlooking a timed feeder? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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It was. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Critical thinking and self realization does not mean that one is for lack of a better word perfect. Theadore Roosevelt shot too many rhinos, and from his writing considered them a relic that sooner past into history the better for the farmer. I propose here and now hunters (fromtexas to Africa) need to do away with timed feeders that condition herbivores to a pot and time for food, small stock ponds, genetic modification and selective breeding, hand reared, sent blocking unnatural agents, and high fences. Ted Nugget bought a ranch and Texas allowed him to kill every native deer and bring in his own herd from out of state. This is foolishness. Those native deer were every bit and proper as what he shipped in for trophy status and genetics. And do not give me herd improvement. He culled the entire native herd. | |||
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LHeym have you ever hunted or been in Texas? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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And while we are at it, may be we should do away with farmed pigs that provide your morning bacon too. After all, that is the sole purpose of them being bred and fed too! | |||
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Do you honestly consider that "Free Range/Fair Chase Hunting"? Or were you merely doing what is an accepted practice in Texas? I am not calling you out or making an unfair judgement on your son's first deer. But is there not a "Double Standard" in play here? LHeym. have you ever been to Texas or hunted here? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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We are not discussing farmerimg. We are discussing hunting. I do not see any information or rebuttal provided by your analogy. | |||
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First let me say Randall that I see your side to the argument in this thread and I think it is valid.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Crazyhorse: No, I have not. If the only way to hunt Texas was with those practices I will never hunt Texas. I mean this with all respect and love for hunting. You cannot convince me that those things are needed on a property with game to kill game. I have never shot game over a feeder of any kind, from a truck, spot lighted, whined a high fence, and by heaven if the sent killer gesmos do work they should be banned legislatively. Do you think Ted Nugget should be allowed to kill every Texas deer and restock with “better”deer. I most strongly do not. Now, I can make a few, specific exceptions (if we are going to write a model statute) for older and disabled hunters. They are disadvantaged enough. There are two thoughts in the East. Some want to embrace these Gexas practices others resent them heavily. If a land owner was to supplement feed over sprinter off season. I am ok with that. KY until I was in college had a three month rule all bait had to be removed from private land three months prior to opening day. Game could not be conditioned. I still live by this rule. The rule is still in effect for Turkey. I will eat a tag and go home before I bait a deer. Respectfully to all, I see a difference Faron baiting a carnivore vs a deer or turkey with corn. A deer or turkey will always choose a pile of corn over less nutritious native browse. I am also under the impression deer feeders have helped CDW become the wildfire it is. Deer congregate at feeder in close proximity exchanging slavia and other bodily fluids. | |||
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Look at LHeyms response and consider alienating. I am not trying to get another argument started, because I have been hunting in Texas about as long as you have. LHeym, I can understand your attitude somewhat, but my question is what is more iomportant for the future of hunting? Compromise and understanding that hunting practices differ around America and the World, and realizing all of us share a love of hunting and the outdoors, is it eworth losing hunting over differences in "Ethical Beliefs"? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Crazyhorse: I can compromise, but I cannot sell out, There is a difference. High fence farmed raised/hand reared estate shooting absolutely not. Sent killing gesmos no. It is the deer’s only or best line of defense. Can anybody refute that deer feeding and commercial transportation of those deer has allowed CWD spread? I ask sincerely. What Ted Nugget did to those lesser deer. No. Crazyhorse: I believe that thre are activities that are currently universally accepted or at least legal that will doom hunting. I am hard on Texas because Texas for hunting is a standard setter. Other Fish and Wildlife agencies follow its lead, and not always for the better. I will ask one more time watch Trophy on iTunes and the interviews posted by Mr. Shores on this forum. Those were hard shell antis out to put a bullet in the head of hunting. What stopped them and changed their minds hard fair chase ethical hunting that contributed to obpberall species health and local communities. When I first asked you too, Mjines said you would not. Do not let him be right so easy. | |||
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Like I said above. If the time spent with the LCTF taught me nothing else...it taught me that there is wisdom in what Randall is saying. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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That's says it all! The anti's goal is, One animal at a time. Gray Ghost Hunting Safaris http://grayghostsafaris.com Phone: 615-860-4333 Email: hunts@grayghostsafaris.com NRA Benefactor DSC Professional Member SCI Member RMEF Life Member NWTF Guardian Life Sponsor NAHC Life Member Rowland Ward - SCI Scorer Took the wife the Eastern Cape for her first hunt: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6881000262 Hunting in the Stormberg, Winterberg and Hankey Mountains of the Eastern Cape 2018 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4801073142 Hunting the Eastern Cape, RSA May 22nd - June 15th 2007 http://forums.accuratereloadin...=810104007#810104007 16 Days in Zimbabwe: Leopard, plains game, fowl and more: http://forums.accuratereloadin...=212108409#212108409 Natal: Rhino, Croc, Nyala, Bushbuck and more http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6341092311 Recent hunt in the Eastern Cape, August 2010: Pics added http://forums.accuratereloadin...261039941#9261039941 10 days in the Stormberg Mountains http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7781081322 Back in the Stormberg Mountains with friends: May-June 2017 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6001078232 "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading" - Thomas Jefferson Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running...... "If you're being chased by a Lion, you don't have to be faster than the Lion, you just have to be faster than the person next to you." | |||
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Why does the title say TROPHY Hunters instead of Hunters? | |||
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Because as as group hunters find ways of creating lines of division. Look at what has happened to deer huntingh in America. Bucks that people were proud of and had mounted 20, 30 and more yerars ago, are sneered at today. Listen to how todays hunters talk, the first thing they ask if someone says they killed a buck kids "What Does It Score?", no congratulations. Hunting has been turned into a competitive sport by too many "Hunters". Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I believe the Liberal Media call us TROPHY Hunters because it causes a BIGGER OUTRAGE to FUEL the antis!!! | |||
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In reality too many hunters, do refer to themselves as Trophy hunters. We have put ourselves in this situation and now we are facing the consequences. Just think about this, what does the hunter shooting a lion or an elephant get out of the effort? A Trophy, regardless of the thrill/excitement/element of danger involved, that is all they get, a Trophy. Look at the number of High Fenced deer hunting operations around the country, do people go there to shoot does and cull bucks, No, they go there and spend thousands of dollars to shoot the biggest buck they can afford. Often they do not even want the meat, all they are after is the TROPHY. Leases here in north Texas that 25 to 30 years back that leased for $1.00 an acre for deer hunting are now leasing for $1000.00 up to $10,000.00 per hunter. Think they are paying that much to shoot does and culls? Hunting got turned into a competitve sport and the goal of competitve sports is winning a trophy. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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The anti's call it Trophy hunting because they've never been hunting. The trophy is tangible and all they and the public see. We here know why we go hunting as opposed to killing. The intangibles, the spiritual, the unexplainable, the esoteric. Born and raised and still on the farm, my views on animals and livestock tend toward practical and pragmatic. I choose not to hunt high fence but will not refuse another the choice. Some day I may not be so young and handsome, may not get around at all under my own power and may like the option of high fence. These same bleeding hearts shove their opinions and theories onto the livestock industry, and just like with hunting, they are far far away from boots in the shit reality. It seems the farther away they are the bigger the opinion. Less and less folks are around the farm and ranch and that goes hand in hand with this animal rights religion. They won't stop at high fence canned hunting. | |||
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Yes, the Anti's do use the term "Trophy Hunters", but have you noticed the various organizations hunters belong to and support. Texas Trophy Hunters Association. Boone and Crockett which maintains a "Book" for "Trophy" animals that hunters have killed. The same can be said for Pope and Young and SCI. You are correct not all hunters are trophy hunters, but there are not as many of us as there was 20/30 and more years ago. I can remember when ANY buck deer was considered a trophy, it ain't that way any more, Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I don't agree with canned hunting but in reality is it any different than a high fence hunt in the U.S.? | |||
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Mostly I agree with Crazyhorseconsulting, but the subject raises for me a lot more questions and issues than the few that have so far been discussed. I've been a hunter for over sixty years, mostly in the eastern provinces of our fair land. I don't consider myself a "trophy hunter" though I have a bear rug on the wall of my office, a moose rack, a set of whitetail antlers, etc. All the hunting I've done is "fair chase" to my knowledge, whatever that may mean. I've shot a number of bears and all legally over bait. But I'm just a hunter because I love the outdoors, it's challenges, the adventure and any success. But "success" for me means I had a good time whether or not I scored on an animal, large or small. I never look to see if it's the "biggest and the best". And, I harvest the wild meat. I enjoy hunting solo or with a partner or small group. Solo is preferred for certain species and/or conditions. Just now, as I write this, a whitetail cull is happening in a section of our province due to too many that are destroying natural vegetation. There is always some duplicity involved in game laws, but I've always been legal as far as I know. But most of this is a discussion over "bragging rights" for "trophies", which is abhorrent to me -- those are MY ethics! My oldest son spent a couple of decades as a resident of Africa, and became a licensed big-game hunter. He mostly hunted for protein, but also did some sport hunting. When he returned with his family permanently, he gave me a set of warthog tusks and bush buck horns. He has some other "stuff" that is still packed away somewhere. Was he a "trophy hunter"? Or just a hunter? He mostly hunted on his own, but by times his native friend from the village they lived in went along, who was a traditional native hunter -- for food. My son NEVER hunted for recognition, mostly for survival. I honor him as a REAL hunter! I had the privilege of spending one day hunting with him and his friend. I do watch some hunting videos, mostly African hunts. As I do, I ponder this question: "What's so appealing to shooting an elephant that has been "found" by the PH, mico-managed in every detail by him and staff that includes a guide, a game scout, and perhaps a few others for butchering, transportation, etc., and at least two or more other rifles "just in case". I can understand the need for helpers, but in a safari where "all" the "trophy hunter" has to do is aim and fire under the direction of the PH, what is left to brag about? Crazyhorseconsulting makes some very good points in my view and experience, though I've never hunted Texas! Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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I can assure you there are no resident hunters (non indigenous) in Africa who rely on game meat for survival. It would make for interesting reading to know where in Africa your son was residing under such drastic conditions.  | |||
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One of Us |
I agree with quite a lot of your post. I too feel that "we", myself included, no matter how bad ass we think we are, are nothing more than tourist hunters and simply follow a group of guys around. We do this from comfortable camps, most of the niceties we have come to expect. We follows trackers and PH's until they put up some shooting sticks, point and say "shoot that one." We pay the trophy fee's and go home. "Some" of us even PAY TO SHIP STUFF HOME AND MOUNT IT. I post this from Brazil. I'm waiting to fly home tonight. I fish here frequently. The difference here vs. Africa is, if I possess no skill, my "bag" or catch will reflect that delta of skill. Skill is not required in Africa, only desire and a wallet. Enjoyable, yes very much so. However I think we as a demographic put far too much emphasis on our own level of hunting skill, again, myself included. I've listened to far too many PH's discuss the typical hunting client, again, myself included. We are customers in a business arraignment, no more. . . no less. I have come to the conclusion that our conduct means exactly zero in how long we can continue. There are forces in play that are far more powerful than us arguing about PHASA and canned lions and Mark Sullivan. Our American international hunting demographic is tiny in relation to any politicians electorate. If there are even 20,000 of us, scattered about in America, how do we matter? Does anyone actually think any politician will risk re-election to support Trophy Hunting, regardless of what it is called? Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Yep, that's the problem | |||
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"Does anyone actually think any politician will risk re-election to support Trophy Hunting, regardless of what it is called?" Yep, that is the problem! | |||
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Canned lion hunts would not exist without American hunters. That is the most damning statement I can make regarding us. I suspect the SA outfitters might publish the numbers not names, of American hunters and their home states, that participated in canned lion hunts. Might be an own goal if it turns out Texans led the way in canned lion hunt participation. | |||
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And HOW MANY would really be surprised if it did turn out that Texans were the most prevelant participants in the "Canned Lion Hunts"????? I wouldn't be. Yes Dallas Safari Club is a TEXAS based organization, but how many Texans actually belong and suppport DSC? I have been a member in the past, I think it is a great organization but I can not help but wonder with all of the High Fence hunting operations in Texas, how much hypocrisy there is in this stance on the issue. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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The utter stupidity, and arrogance, of some posters here defies comprehension. It is either my way, or the highway. Get off your high horses. You are becoming as bad as some deranged religious cults! You don't like something? Fine, don't do it. But what gives you the right to demand that others stop? The antis wanted you to stop owning and using guns. Can you do that please?
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I just received my latest edition of American Hunter magazine. On the cover, it says “Why Every Hunter is a Trophy Hunter.” I will read it and report. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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It was a nice article by Joe Coogan. He ended with “In reality, the best ‘trophy’ of all is the memory of the experience and of those you were with during the hunt.” I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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He is right of course. May be we can persuade the idiots running SCI that this is the most important part of a "trophy" hunt. Rather than belong to some stupidly exclusive circle, whose members have no clue what sportsmanship is? | |||
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He takes a veiled stab at that. It’s worth a read, but I don’t think it is online yet for those who are not members. By the way all should be members. There is a small part about the NRA Hunters’ Leadership Forum. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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He should have made it clear what he meant. SCI and their brand of "trophy" hunting has done nothing good to our sport. They have single handedly created an enormous criminal organization, mainly in South Africa, supporting the sick needs of these sportless, classless, spineless, unethical individuals claiming to be sportsmen. None of this would have happened if SCI has not facilitated it. Reading their annual report in Safari magazine on the "rewards" is nothing short of being sick! We all know how hard it is to get a truly outstanding trophy, they do not grow on trees. All one has to see is some of the websites which "specialize" in providing these individuals with "trophies"on demand. I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that SCI is well aware of this, but they prefer to encourage it. | |||
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It is a "money-spinner" for them when you think about it. To enter an animal for one of their dumb inner circle awards costs money, they don't give you the privilege of being an award recipient for nothing. It would therefore be in their best of interests to make sure you get the desired quality trophy, hence their staunch support towards outfitters in RSA in particular.  | |||
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Funny part is lots of these “inner circles” jerks are from Wall Street! Tells you something ha? | |||
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I Have not read the article, but just my opinion, the ending sentence should have been the BEGIINING sentence of the piece. I have asked this before and not just on this site, but what state would hunting be in if the whole "Record Book" concept had never started and the Competition aspect never saw the light of day? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Lane and Saeed have expressed it better than I ever could. If you think that ANYTHING that you do, say or enact as an individual or group will garner any understanding or acceptance of hunting in any form from those who oppose it your are seriously delusional. Make no mistake - there is but one goal. To end all hunting everywhere. Perhaps if we keep this in mind we can stay focused on the real battle and not the in-fighting. | |||
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You have expressed the situation pretty damn good. Getting ALL hunters to understand the problem and what is at stake is the problem! Your comment is very good. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting American trophy hunters condemn South African canned lion hunting
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