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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Given recent tragic events, what is min. dangerous game cartridge?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I always thought the 375 was enough. Is it still? Is bullet palcement still the most important or is it bullet placement plus 'more gun', like a 416 a must these days? Again, condolences for the tragedies as of late. I am just wanting reassurance that I and my PH will have more margin for error... thanks | ||
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.375 is reputedly the minimum requirement for DG - anything above and over is added value. Use the one you are most comfortable with but above all try and avoid creating situations which may result in tragedy. | |||
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There is No margin for error in DG hunting. and yes the 375 will do! Cheers | |||
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155mm G6 from 36 klms. | |||
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My .375 seems to work just fine. Shot placement counts more than horsepower in my opinion. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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In the only occasion that a four-legged African animal tried to kill me, I was quite glad that I had a .458 Win. Mag. instead of a .375 H&H.... and the with the two legged variety (non-African usually), a .223 sucked, btw. 20mm or a Mk-82 Snakeye was better.  I haven't used a .375 in years. Nothing the matter with one, but if you can, why not go bigger? JMHO. JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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9.62xReality. The reason for a .577 Tyrannosaur is a bad experience with whatever was smaller at the time of trauma, in the hands of whoever said "That ain't gonna happen EVER again!" (It ain't the gun, it's the karma/luck/how it happens when you do everything right and it is still dangerous. Fast cars, bungee jumping, messing with poisonous snakes, whatever is only safe for so long.) _______________________ | |||
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For some, I suppose, but for others it is because they can shoot it well and is their arm of choice.
Agree 100% ... but preparation and practice go a long way (not all the way) to stacking the odds in your favor. As you said - it is DANGEROUS - otherwise we should stick to picking flowers. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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A rough quote from Harry Selby a number of months ago on this forum. "The 375 H&H magnum is in my opinion the finest caliber ever developed. I would rather see a client bring the 375 than any any other caliber." | |||
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.375, .416, .458, .470 Nitro -- it doesn't matter as all do pretty much the same thing with a marginal shot and all do the same thing with a well-placed shot. In fact, the faster .375 will sometimes do BETTER with a "near miss" since its higher velocity may inflict some trauma on nearby tissue which the slower .458 does not. Before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not advocating more velocity with a lighter bullet, only pointing out that a marginal hit with a larger caliber isn't usually any more effective than a marginal hit with a smaller caliber. | |||
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If what Harry Selby says is sacrosanct, go for it. just remember that it is the MINIMUM legal requirement and not necessarily the most efficient. Also remember that hunting DG 25/30 years ago was a different ball game to what it is today; the heavy .40+ calibers were brought on to the market for the gullible among us falling for the ruse, not knowing that a smaller caliber on DG was just as good. | |||
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beat me to it - i was going to suggest a 106 recoiless | |||
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Unless you're picking in Texas blue bonnet fields that are laced with a liberal sprinkeling of six foot rattle snakes! When it comes to stopping the 375H&H through the CNS is far better than a 577NE through the gut! Still it is a good idea to shoot the most powerfull rifle that you can shoot well. I've never had a problem while useing a 375 H&H, but given the choice I rather have something in the area of a 450 NE or larger when it gets close in! .........................................................................  ..................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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After only 3 buffalo hunts, I'm definitely not thinking that I am an experienced DG hunter. They all 3 turned out well but have been charged twice in 3 hunts. Poor shot placement on the first one with a .416 and much too far away. 8 shots later, with no one hurt, I learned a lesson. Caliber is not as important as shot placement. The second charge was after a good, not great, just good shot on a bull at 51 yards. Took out both lungs with a 500 gr from a .470 Nitro. 20 minutes later, he was still on his feet and when we found him, he charged. 2 more .470's and he was done. The 3rd bull was 20 yards with a .458 lott. Down and wasn't able to get up again. I can attribute that to shot placement. For me, the largest caliber I can comfortably shoot accurately is my choice. | |||
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Pretty soon now, someone will post, "A well placed 375 is better than a poorly placed 500". That is a true statement! But for me, I ascribe to the theory of "A well placed 500 is better than a well placed 375". Shot placement is absolutely essential as is a properly constructed bullet of adequate caliber. For me, adequate caliber means the very largest weapon I can shoot effectively and efficiently. At this point, that is the 500NE. What I think is more important than all the above however, is the client's mindset. So often we see guys here state that the PH will be there to sort things out "when the butter gets thin". To me, that is the absolute wrong attitude to take afield when DG hunting. I rely on the PH to take me into situations that I have no knowledge of such as finding the appropriate elephant in the jesse bush. I have no clue on how to select the proper ele there or anywhere else. But when it comes to the shooting part, I do everything in my power to be 100% proficient and effective with my weapon of choice. I don't want to go to the field for DG thinking that the PH can outshoot me. He may very well be able to, but he'll have it to do! How often this year have we seen the PH get the short end of the deal with DG? Way to often by any measure. I certainly hope that situation never happens to me, but if it does, I hope I can cover the PH as well as he can cover me. JMO, but going into the field for DG with less than that attitude is putting too much pressure on the PH. After all, he often has an old and worn weapon and / or is often shooting suspect ammo left behind from previous clients. That's just the way it is with the African gun laws being what they are. Honestly, I don't understand the desire to hunt with the minimum cartridge allowed. To each his own and we all have different motivations and desires. But for me, the question has always been, "What is the largest caliber I can effectively handle" when it comes to DG. | |||
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Guess I have to cross that off my "To do" list ... 
And when it comes to stopping, a 577NE through the CNS is far better than a 375 H&H through the gut ...
  NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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pagosawingnut and Todd Williams: I share your philosophies on caliber choice and stated so somewhere in some other thread which when something like: Use the biggest caliber you can shoot precisely and accurately; practice enough with the firearm so that it requires no "thinking" to use it safely, accurately and repeatedly (i.e. recharging it); don't be of the mind that "my PH can finish the job if I get in trouble" - unless he can't due to unforseen problems (gun, ammo, injury, dealing with another animal bent on making you toe jam, etc). NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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A well placed 375 is better than a poorly placed 500.....there ya go Todd. Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
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Just to add my two cents. It's worth pointing out that in Nyati -the art of hunting buffalo, the very experienced PHs point out that a375 solid through the heart will allow a buff to run 200-250 yards, a 450 150 -200yds and a 500 50-100 yds. In other words, more than the typical shooting distance. The buff I shot last year through the heart and both lungs with two 375 ran 100 yds, circled around us and was behind us when two opened fire on him again. To the point above about not relying on you Ph always, we were between the Ph and the buff and he did not have a shooting line between us since he had been ahead. I shoot Gibbs505 based rifles and next year I m bringing a Gibbs 505! The biggest I accurately shoot and handle comfortably. | |||
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A .45ACP Carry by Kymber works well in the States....biggest you are comfortable with works well in Africa | |||
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I am s-o-o-o tired of the .375 nonsense. A .416 will do anything a .375 will and will do it better. A .458 will be better yet. If you are comfortable with a "minimum" or "adequate" rifle for Ele & buff then be my guest. I am not. I killed my first Ele bull with a .375 and immediately started looking for something bigger. All my Buff have been killed with a Mdl 70 in .416Rem, one of the sweetest shooting rifles ever built. Additional Ele have been taken with a .458Lott and in a few weeks my next Ele will fall to a .458B&M shooting a CEB solid. BTW, nothing works if the rifle is empty, as has been the case recently, so practice combat loading from the belt and don't wait for the rifle to run dry. JMO based upon years of education, training and experience. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Well said Todd. Also, regarding the suggestion that the higher velocity of the 375 H&H may produce adjacent tissue damage on a marginal shot (hydroshock) and therefore an advantage- Like many of you here, I have killed a fair amount of plains game with the 375 using 300 gr. softs. I found it to be very effective with nominal surrounding tissue destruction. As the old saying goes - "You can eat right up to the hole". I consider that to be one of the many fine attributes of this round. The 375 is my light rifle. The 458 Lott is my heavy. NRA Endowment Member | |||
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Mindset is indeed important! Chatting over a cold beer with Camp Mgr at Masame after I had dropped my Ele with one shot side brain, Duane said he only remembered 7 or 8 one shot side brain from over the 300 kills he had been involved in.....why? Intimidation, inexperience/unfamilarity with rifle, wrong caliber choice where his speculations....I used a .416Rigby, Norma with 400gr Barnes solids on my first Ele...a caliber I was comfortable with (glad you have a firearm with a "4" in front said PH), and, due to past Ele encounters with Greeff and Chipman, felt no feelings of intimidation. My PH called it "freak out"...when you are under 20 yds from something 12-feet tall that weighs up to six tons and can stomp your guts out for first time, I can understand "freak out" !!! If you liked this post, send money! I want to do it again! | |||
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Or decide you don't like danger. Plains game is enough for what I can afford. A buffalo is simply ten kudu to me... _______________________ | |||
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Accurate shooting is first. Never shoot your rifle to empty the mag and chamber. You always save the last for point blank range. A couple of feet in front of your barrel. "Dangerous Game 101" Mike | |||
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I like my .416 Rem. built by Wisemann. You can blast it-- one of my PH's said it was "a bit clunky"; It's a push feed, etc. But, it has detachable magazines and I can reload in a few seconds. That said, I shot erratically the last time out. That's on me. Shot placement is everything. | |||
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But why, why, why shoot for the heart lungs. A heart shot on any animal is a very poor shot. Sure it is a killing shot and on non-dangerous game you will eventually find your animal after it has high-tailed it off for a few hundred meters or you drop it earlier with another better anchoring shot. On DG you want the animal to drop, not piss off into the hinterland to lay up an ambush if it feels like it. Read Taylor, Keith, etc, all who could never understand many hunters preference for a behind the shoulder heart/lung shot, they all advocated bust the shoulders. If high up through the shoulder joint the major blood vessels in behind the shoulder blade are taken out leading to instant blood pressure loss to the brain plus of course the animal is incapacitated with broken shoulders. Even humans will go some distance if stabbed through the heart before dropping and we all know that many people including new born babies have holes in the heart (not right through but within the confines of the heart) and they function quite well. Look at a buffs heart, it is huge, and it can keep the animal going for a long time even holed right through. Take out the aorta and and other major arteries and you have no blood pressure, virtually as good as a direct brain shot. The advantage I have found with high shoulder shots especially if the animal is moving or running is that if you stuff up your leade and hit back along the body, you still have a very good chance of scoring on the kidneys and liver. Again good blood pressure dropping places and a kidney hit seems to impart a good shock effect on most animals anchoring them or making them very sick quickly. High body shots always have the chance of spine hits as well and this will drop any animal on the spot. Same for frontal shots, bugger the low brisket for the heart, high brisket for the aorta and top of the heart and even better the spine or further on back with a good penetrating bullet, the kidneys and liver. Heart/lungs to save meat. I want an animal down on the spot and I'll buy meat at the butcher if I want more. | |||
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Eagle, you raise some very interesting issues and I m sure will result in a lot of discussion re where to aim on buffalo. The first shot was at the shoulder but hit a branch and tumbled through both lungs. The second, when the heart became exposed from behind a tree was for the heart. I ve read Taylors book and it has worked for me but I suspect you need a more powerful rifle to make it work regularly. And yes people survive heart stab wounds and I ve seen 3 survive gunshots. The problem I see with trying to hit the aorta/ pulmonary artery is that it is a smaller area. Same with brain or spine but ther is no down it is a show stopper. Look at Sullivans brain shots for buff but that is not typically done at 50yds or from the side because the horn s hide the brain. I m sure the PHs on the site will offer their grater wisdom and Kevin Robertson and most other books show aiming for the heart. You raise an interesting discussion. | |||
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How much rifle can you handle effectively?  Let the rifle and caliber you can use effectively dictate the game you pursue. Not the other way around. If a 375H&H is all you can master, I would humbly suggest you pick an appropriate animal. Just because it is the MINIMUM legal caliber doesn't mean it is a reasonable thing to do. Just because you have the money for air fare, guide expenses, and a rifle doesn't mean it is a good idea to go on a "Walter Mitty" fantasy hunt where your opponent could kill you if you don't know what you are doing or have a crisis of confidence. Can you stand steady in the face of a charge from a hippo or buffalo? Are you intimidated by raising a rifle well above the horizon to shoot a 12 foot tall ~6 ton elephant? Do you even have any prior experience with a bloodied rifle? Dangerous Game in Africa probably isn't the best place to start (I'm thinking plains game, Elk, Moose, etc. for a beginner is a better place to start). Best Regards, Sid All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it. Alexis de Tocqueville The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. Alexis de Tocqueville | |||
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Can't give the exact quote, but Capstick said that clients should bring the heaviest caliber they can shoot well, and for most that is the 375 H&H. Probably why that's the minimum caliber for most countries; and remember that most safari clients aren't AR members who shoot 470 NE doubles or 577 T-Rex without the least bit of a flinch. Caleb | |||
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The recent tragic events haven't changed the minimum dangerous game caliber. It is the same as it has been for 100 years. That is the legal minimum in the country that you are hunting. Two years ago in Zim two PHs failed to stop charging buff with two shots each from 500 nitro doubles within a couple of weeks of each other. Does that make the 500 nitro inadequate? 465H&H | |||
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The fact is PHC was recoil shy, and the only place I know of where he used anything but a 375H&H bolt rifle was on an elephant hunt in Namibia with Volker Grelman where he used a Famars 470NE double rifle! However he was right in his statement. The most suggested rifle/caliber by PHs for a client is a 375H&H bolt rifle!
Good question 465H&H! It , IMO, certainly doesn’t say anything negative about the 500NE, but simply proves the adage that the size of a large bore is not a sure thing,or that anyone should believe all he needs is to shoot a mad buffalo with a large bore rifle will always work. As we see with your two examples, it is not a sure thing. …………………………………………………………………………………...........................................  . ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Main thing is hit them right the first time but buff can be really tough no matter what. | |||
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Just returned today from 14 days with Ian Gibson in Mwanja Camp, Chewore North. This was the camp Owain Lewis was operating out of. From the best info, the buff was hit numerous times with .458WM solids before, as well as during, his final charge. First shot placement is critical. Having said that, neither my wife or I shot well. Ian's backups were necessary. My lioness took 10 hits--5 from my .375, and 5 from Gibbo's .458, before expiring! Sometimes the best you can do isn't good enough. | |||
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Jesus (re above post). In regards to this thread Use what you can handle and shoot straight in the right spot to stop as best you can. Every time I have had to stop a charge here in Aus I always seem to have the wrong gun in my hand, a 338 Win Mag but in the right place (ie brain) it has stopped them. . Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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I didn't think it was possible to make a bad shot with a 375. I thought ALL 375's were properly placed.  | |||
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She died from hyperventilation | |||
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Let's face it guys, not everybody shoots as well as they should/would like to. Some people are definitely recoil sensitive and the big bores just scare them to death. I grew up being told by "hunters" that the only way to stop an animal fairly quickly was a heart/lung shot. BUT that was a deer or antelope, definitely not something that seeks to get even or ahead when you shoot it, not dangerous game. I have heard that a high shoulder shot on big bears is what was recommended by more than one guide to break the animal down and THEN kill it. On one hand, it makes sense but on the other hand couldn't you kill it first and then break it down. If you first shot doesn't break it down, now you have a completely pissed off animal that, as we have seen several times this last 45 days, can and will do his best to obliterate your life. And to a newbie, a 1500 lb chunk of mad animal with horns big enough take out your car back home, are you going to withstand the charge without panicking? You also have to rely on bullet performance to do the job you assigned it to do. Too many variables. I've always tried to put the killing shot in first, shoot where the guide/PH advised me to. These guys and some gals have been part of so many more buffalo hunts than I will ever get to and I figure they have a keener sense of where they want the animal shot than I do. | |||
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Not being recoil sensitive I almost always reach for my 416 over my 375,, I just like my Rigby. The Ph I shot my first buffalo with told me he wanted me to shoot the first shot into the shoulder joint, second if possible in the heart and third between his eyes before he mashed us. He told me to always plan on making 3 shots before I made the first. I guess he was making me plan ahead for more than one shot. He wanted to make sure I took out some of his running gears and try and anchor him so we didn't have to track him in the thick jess we were in,, he was shooting a 458 Lott for back up. He never had to fire it while we were with him. Shooting light skinned animals here in the states guys will shoot one time and look to watch the animal die and not reload,, many times to watch it get up and run away before they realize what has happened,, with Dangerous game,,,,bad mistake.. How many times do we watch on Tv the hunter shoot and eject the shell casing and is on film looking on the ground for the casing!!! Since that time I always train my self to shoot and reload quickly and stay on target whether on the range or in the field. you can make more money, you can not make more time | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Given recent tragic events, what is min. dangerous game cartridge?
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