Thanks for your advise, although not needed, but read my PM reply to your PM received - hopefully that would be worth a lot to you.

Pigheaded = 'hardkoppig' or for our English readers' sake 'stubborn'.

What is so degrading, uncivilized or non-professional about that wording?

It is rather descriptive, though!

each to his own, I wish it was only the pigheaded thing I was offended by.....

Let this then R.I.P., I'll take it up with you in private....

You're welcome.

The only hunting outfit I know of that charges extra for wounded and lost animals is Africa Thirstland Safaris in Namibia. If you lose an animal, you pay the trophy fee + 30% for the meat that can't be sold.

Interesting thread, I have not read it for a week or so and see I missed out on some interesting comments.

JJHACK, sorry that your thread was somewhat hacked and taken on a trip you never intended it to do at all.
However, after having checked through my most recent hunting files' correspondence I found the following:

1. Missed shots - additional charges for these are the rule on almost all game farms - ranging from R20 per shot to as much as R150 per missed shot.
Funny enough, in the same region I mentioned earlier one outfitter even charges 15% of the trophy animals' value that was missed with a minimum of R150 per missed shot.
A missed shot on a Kudu bull in this specific case would have cost the hunter 15% of R5500 or R825! Totally ridiculous IMHO.

2. Wounded animal tracking fees - The one I have mentioned already above.
Then a possibly even more expensive one in the Limpopo province - 15% of the trophy animal's value when the search is conducted with tracker dogs.
A further one claiming immediate cash payment for the wounded animals full value before any hunting for the specific hunter will be allowed again.

These are just a few that I could locate quickly in a question of about 15 minutes time through my files.

3. Other interesting things leaving a bad taste in the hunter's mouth if he/she didn't read the fine print thoroughly:
(a) A non-refundable deposit of R4000 to secure the booking.
(b) Price lists not indicating whether VAT (Value added tax) is included or not. A note in the Terms & Conditions indicate this 14% additional charge surprise only.

These are facts and it seems that local hunters have accepted these as being part of the hunting costs in most cases. Yet, certain SA outfiters still claim to be unaware of this.

Once again, my apologies to you for your thread being abused due to uninformed people taking part in it with a lot of fuss rather than learning from it.

Lekker dag.

Jagter,
Allow me to help you out on some of the things you have posted.

All foreign hunters, in most cases pays a non refundable deposit when they book, if you cancel a hunt why must you get your deposit back, where will the game rancher find a replacement for your cancelled hunt?

All foreign hunters must book through a outfitter, the outfitter must arrange the full hunt foor him including pick ups, transport, accomodation, food, ph hunting rights, permits and many more things.

You as a SA citezen do not have to book through a outfitter, you contract directly with the game farmer.

All foreign clients must be accompanied by a ph, again you as a RSA citizen do not need a ph, you only have a black guide or farmhand that is walking with you.

I never had a problem on any farm where I have hunting rights to pay extra for missed shots or to pay for tracking. Tracking fees are included in my dayly rates and the ph's and trackers are paid to do their job properly.

You as a SA hunter is only paying for the use of the farm and if you wound a animal you should be able to track the animal, if you cannot, you need the services of a tracker or tracker dogs. Who do you expect to pay for this if you pay a minimal dayfee? I know what RSA citizens are paying for day fees I also hunt as a biltong hunter.

All foreighn clients pay VAT on their day fees and they canot claim it back. They do not pay vat on the trophies that will be exported, but they must pay vat on wounded animals as it will not be exported. You should know that you will be paying vat, come on you pay vat on almost everything.

If you have such a lot of problems getting a honest place to hunt, why don't you book through a outfitter, pay the price for top quality and get everything organised for you plus a ph, you will know excactly what you will get and what the price is for the trophiesa, no charge for missed shots or tracking fees.

But I will bet my left ball you will not be prepared to pay the price.

Jaco, with all due respect, read the thread from the beginning and see what it is all about. I think you are a bit mistaken at the moment in your interpretation of my comments.

I would however, like to say more about this part you have mentioned:

quote:

All foreign hunters, in most cases pays a non refundable deposit when they book, if you cancel a hunt why must you get your deposit back, where will the game rancher find a replacement for your cancelled hunt?

For an outfitter to insist on a R4000 non-refundable deposit to secure the booking, while daily fees are R250, picture the following -
the local hunter stays for the minimum of 2 days = R500 (arrive Friday afternoon, hunt Saturday & leave early on Sunday), hunt an Impala for R650 + B/Wbeest for R2200 which comes to a total of R3350.
What happens to the balance of R650 which is part of the non-refundable deposit?

Admittedly, this thread is now a bit mixed up between charges applicable to foreign and local hunters, but that was what JJHACK was trying to test due to the fact that locals do pay certain charges which are at present not applicable to foreign hunters.

By the way, we've got many other places where we hunt without this type of nonsense - in doing our homework re acceptable hunting destinations, we came across all the funnies (plus others that were not even noted here) I've mentioned in this thread.

Are you sure you haven't lost that lefty long time ago?

Jagter,
Have you ever considered the cost of running a hunting farm. I am 1 of 19 shareholders on a small nature reserve. Our annual cost to maintain the roads, fences, pay the labourers, security and supplying water runs to about R600,000.00 a year, that is after the proceeds for game that we sell off.

Most game farms gives a minimum amount of hunters for a minimum period, with a minimum fee, that is usually equal to the non refundable deposit.

If I had a gamefarm and I allow hunters to hunt and I have a income of R1650 per day ( as per your example) I won't be able to pay the intrest on my bond, never mind trying to make a living.

I did follow the tread from the beginning. I cannot agree with extra fees for an foreign client, however it is totally different for local hunters. Local hunters are prepared to go to nature reserves and pay R500-00 per evening with nothing included, but they want to hunt for R250-00 per day and expect a tracker, a skinner, a vehicle to drop them in the veld and to pick up their animals. They want their animals caped, the skins salted and cooling facilities for their meat. Then you also get local hunters that wants to bribe the guides not to report wounded animals. For that one I have a good trick. If the hunter wants to bribe the guide not to report the missed shots, because he cannot shoot properly or because of his hangover. I give the guide double the amount and I add it to the hunters account. Believe me there are many unscupulous hunters that is doing it.

I pay a lot more for a camp because I want it exclusively for my clients.

It is time that biltong hunters learn that it is damn expensive to run a farm. I the farmers cannot make a profit, what will happen next. They will go back to cattle farming and wildlife will loose it's value. You will not have a place to hunt and no Biltong to eat when the Blue Bulls play.

I think it is time that local hunters sit down and realize what a wonderful privilage we have. There are very few places in the world where you can do so much hunting for so little money.

Do yourself a favour and calculate the cost of your annual holiday compared to your hunting trip. Add to your holiday cost the value of the meat if you had to replace it with beef.

You will then agree with me that local hunters is living in paradise.

Jaco, again with all due respect, you say:

quote:

Have you ever considered the cost of running a hunting farm. I am 1 of 19 shareholders on a small nature reserve. Our annual cost to maintain the roads, fences, pay the labourers, security and supplying water runs to about R600,000.00 a year, that is after the proceeds for game that we sell off.

The bottom line of expenses after proceeds in your top example are actually called a Nett Loss!
If you and your co-shareholders continue on that basis, you have already predicted your own fate within a short time from now, namely:

quote:

I the farmers cannot make a profit, what will happen next. They will go back to cattle farming and wildlife will loose it's value.

Yet, you and your co-owners continue with the operation? Sorry, I don't buy that. Money always talks!
The only way you can keep this up is if you are making huge profits elsewhere and offset this nett loss against it. Where do you make these profits? None of my business, but do you get the trend?

Then this little bit, Jaco:

quote:

If I had a gamefarm and I allow hunters to hunt and I have a income of R1650 per day ( as per your example)(Should be R1675/day!) I won't be able to pay the intrest on my bond, never mind trying to make a living.

R1675/day x 30 = R50250 per month and if you only hunt 6 months per year it would yield R301500 per year which would cover the interest for one year on a R2 621 739 bond at the current prime rate of 11.5%. (Obviously a game farm may cost much more than R2.6m to buy, but this gives you a good example of what can be earned out of it - more the bigger it is, etc.)
Game farms are making good profits out of local hunters as well, otherwise there won't be so many of them to pick and choose from as you said.

Then a little more on what we, local hunters are used to get if we pay R250/day:

quote:

Local hunters are prepared to go to nature reserves and pay R500-00 per evening with nothing included, but they want to hunt for R250-00 per day and expect a tracker, a skinner, a vehicle to drop them in the veld and to pick up their animals. They want their animals caped, the skins salted and cooling facilities for their meat.

Contrary to what you are saying above, we normally get the bush camp (not the lodge or main facilities) which consist of a very basic rondawel or chalet with beds (without bedding or towels) bathroom and toilet, hot water supplied by a 'donkey system' (need to make wood fire under a 44 gallon drum acting as a geyser), a reasonably equipped kitchen, gas stove and a lapa. Prepare and supply our own meals.
All without electricity, paraffin lanterns supply lights throughout.
Firewood we pay for each bundle we use after the first one per day which is included in the day rate.
We get a farmhand as a guide, use our own vehicles to drop of hunters and collect game hunted. Yes, we get our game skinned and kept in the cooling room.

If we want something better than that, then we pay day rates up to R350 - R400 per day. It is our choice and we do pay on average round about R345/day simply because we have good places where we hunt with reasonable game prices, nice facilities and game farm owners welcoming us back each year with open arms.

I think it is time for all game farmers providing hunting opportunities and facilities to local hunters, to sit down and consider what these customers are worth to them and then decide, like in any other business, how they intend to keep these customers happy so that they, the game farmers, can benefit from them in future.
With that I'm not saying that game farmers are not already doing that, many are and both hunters and landowners are mutually benefitting from it for many years already and hopefully many more to come.

Some time ago a survey was done by North West University which found that local hunters make the far bigger contribution to the hunting industry in South Africa.
Just shows you on which hunters game farmers should concentrate more!

Jaco, I am happy to hunt the way I do at present, I'm getting good service from game farmers where I hunt and can go back each year with an open mind knowing that they also benefit from my hunting.

I would not be enthusiastic about a lost game penalty. Nor would I want to pay an extra charge to use an animal that I shot and paid the trophy fee on as bait for a cat. But there is at least one company doing that.

Just what this forum has been waiting for....

South Africans pissing on South Africans.

It makes a change.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete Millan:
Just what this forum has been waiting for....

South Africans pissing on South Africans.

It makes a change.

I really had to respond to this, although I thought I would call it a day.

Can you see what I tried to get over to you Jagter, there are more at stake here than your "bad" experiences as a biltong hunter.
New to this forum or not( I wish I got here earlier if this is your trend), I will say this, you clearly do not know anything about PROFESSIONAL hunting, and do it more injustice than good.

Jaco, you are wasting your time, for one or other reason, Jagter does not have a lot of time for what we do, and does not see the damage he is doing to our industry. He thinks a PH (with or without my LLB) is "pigheaded" man that tries to take foreigners Dollars, and eat them like a "mielie".

Pig headed, so by the way Jagter, according to dictionary.com is "stupidly obstinate (hard headed)".

As an educated man, I DO take GREAT insult to that.....

To all our friends from across the pond, apologies for the debate that veered of course a bit.......Most Pro hunting Outfits, like ours, Jaco, Chris (guys on this forum) quote ALL inclusive prices, with no hidden extras on missed shots or tracking fees. It is also NOT a very common thing in SA PROFESSIONAL hunting circles, and I know that most Outfitters would never change their view on that......

Come and hunt our beautiful country, it does not matter with whom or where, but your business keeps an industry alive........

/

What is wrong that Jagter posted?
He gives the impression that our Game Ranch owners, "on many farms", charges and hourly fee for tracking wounded game. Wrong, as I still await the many farm names.....

Every single time one of the PH's questions something he posted, he replies in a way that is bordering on contempt, although he now starts his statements, "...with great respect"

I do agree that in many ways we barged around the same bush, apart for this one topic, and agree with a lot of the statements he made. I never questioned those.

I apologized to international hunters reading this, because of the fact that, as history has proven time and again, we Afrikaners can just not stand together, sort out an argument, admit to be wrong/ leave the topic. I think it gives the perception that we do not know what is happening in our own industry....I am getting tired of this thread in any case. We (all) drifted of the point a bit, and that is also one of the things I apologised for.



I have not hunted North America, no. My American friends informed me of the situation over there, and that is why most of them come and hunt with us, because they get more value for money...It is hardly a secret Alf, you just need to talk to an American about the hunting over there, and you do not have to have been there... I have however shot a variety of Deer in Europe, and it works totally different over there. We got invited to go hunting White tail and Bear next year by clients that visited us this year, in the US.

My friend, with all due respect, anything with the words "Transvaal" is pre 1994, and therefore over 12 years old, you really do not want to venture that far back. I do not know about one hunting/farming organization that will condone hourly tracking rates for wounded game, but then again, IF people charge these fees, they prob. will not belong to such an organization. Everyone in SA hunting, wheter from SA or anywhere else in the world , knows that you pay for wounded game. I NEVER debated the fact, or any other extra charges, as people do that (it is your own fault if you get caught however...) As stated above, I'm unhappy because this guy stated it as a fact that "many game farms" charges fees for tracking wounded game. I still think that is BS.

Lastly, Alf, how would you feel if you had your game farm in an area (forget for a second that he called me a stupid hard headed guy, after reading three replies, and not knowing me...). You work it hard, and you keep it above the water every year, so that it doesn’t sink. Then someone comes along and makes comments about 1 bad experience his had, and makes degrading comments about your area, and generalize ("your small valley") about how bad it is down there. I know how I felt, and yes it is a free world with free speech, the exact reason why I responded in the way I did. I still think it was unreasonable. There are a lot of big game farms in our area, with the Beautiful Loskop dam nature reserve at the heart of the valley. We are also, with Bela-Bela, vastly becoming the area with the most disease free Cape Buffalo in South Africa. All our foreign clients that hunt this area love it. Please do not preach to a fish how to swim in the sea. I am all too familiar with the biltong hunting industry, and game ranching, the reason why I commented in the way I did.


Happy hunting Alf, no hard feelings

Infinito wrote:

quote:

.......Most Pro hunting Outfits, like ours, Jaco, Chris (guys on this forum) quote ALL inclusive prices, with no hidden extras .....

Found this on your own Terms & Conditions -

quote:

TERMS AND CONDITIONS

What do the Daily Rates exclude?

• Trophy and taxidermist fees.
• All liquors like brandy, whisky, bourbon, rum, etc.
• CITES permits and hunting licenses, where applicable.
• Airline tickets, domestic and international.
• Government Value Added Tax. – 14%
• Gratuities.
• Admission charges on surprise trips (min. cost will apply)
• Rifle Hire excluding ammunition ($10.00 per day)
• Personal and travel insurance
• International calls from landlines or satellite phones

INFINITO SAFARIS RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CHANGE ANY TERMS, CONDITIONS AND PRICES WITHOUT NOTICE. RATES AT THE TIME OF THE HUNT WILL APPLY

I think Alf and Jagter have got it all right in their above posts!

It is stated on the web-site as a fact, not hidden.......

We reserve the right to change these prices, because of the fact that the Rand is not the most stable currency in the world. In practice, open dialogue is kept with clients about this, and a hunting agreement (contract) is signed, with a lot of these detail being addressed. Prices are then contracted on, and cannot be changed......

The terms and conditions you quoted, as per our site, are pretty standard for our industry......

It is a pity that you did not quote what was included.......

Back to the point. As someone in that corner, just something curious... how many game farms do you know that charges any fees for tracking wounded game? (AND I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT PAYING FOR WOUNDING THE ANIMAL, I'M TALKING ABOUT GETTING IT)

One where i didn't hunt because of that clause in Limpopo province and then the one mentioned on this thread.

Why should these facts worry you so much?

Because a statement is being made that is not true about hunting in South Africa. One or two farms can hardly be seen as the norm. You are gravely mistaken if you think it gives me sleepless nights. I am just not gonna keep my mouth shut if someone says something that is not true, especially when I know the industry, and are very confident to reply on it.

So you and jagter hunt together? Or did you have the same experience on different occasions on the same farms....And PLEASE stop just saying that, name the farms, so that we can get their input....I would suggest you PM instead of naming them on the forum. I will take it upon my shoulders to contact them and get the info....

Are you from Witbank as well??

After a lot of debate and plain bitching between us SA boys, I can now announce that through PM'ing and the thread, I have confirmation of two farms in South AFrica that charge for the tracking of wounded game.

To all my compatriots that was offended by the way I tried to argument a case for OUR hunting industry, I am truly sorry with my hat in my hand.

It is now clear that NOT many game farms charge a fee for tracking wounded game. Jagter would probably e-mail me a list of about a 100 farms next week, after consulting all his files

Infinito Safaris T&C is correct ito the 14% VAT.

We all know we should pay VAT on almost anything, yet it would be so much easier for all hunters to compare prices if ALL prices are shown inclusive of VAT.

Three game farms charge tracking fees for wounded animals, one in Namibia as well.
How sure are we about that?

Don't the others incur additional costs when conducting such operations?
Or is it built into the low day rates biltong hunters pay?

Just questions comimg up in my mind!

I agree that prices for local hunters should be quoted as VAT inclusive - in fact the law actually prescribes it although landowners don't always abide by this rule.

Most hunts for foreign clts are however booked a year or more in advance and even though the VAT rate has been 14% for as long as I can remember, there is a possibility that tax rates may have changed by the time that the clts arrive for their hunts. It therefore makes sense to refer to VAT seperately when quoting foreign clients. This does not imply "hidden costs" though.

In the bigger scheme of things (and from a foreign trophy hunting perspective) it is irrelevant whether landowners charge tracking fees or not. No outfitter in his right mind would do business with a landowner who charges him tracking fees and neither would he pass such fees on to his clients.

We do not hunt with SA hunters, we have one price for all, and the SA hunters do not like to pay our prices(aimed at the international market only), which is understandable.

I have never heard of this, and yes, will steer well clear of any hunting area that charges this fee.

The VAT issue was well addressed by both Springtrap and Chris.