Well said, Use Enough Gun.

I note also that once again, as on many other questions, I am in the minority, which proves, at least to me, that I am doing something right.

UEG, that's exactly why I posted this here!

Thanks to all for the feedback

The best way to solve this is to only hunt free range wild animals. I don't shoot game in a pen no matter how big t is.
Dr B

As previously stated by one of the members, it is about your bussiness model. I do not care about the exchange rate. I wrote myself a little program to calculate my fees and when I quote I say what the exchange rate is that I used to calculate my prices and that it will be adjusted either way. There is now way that I can predict the volatile exchange rate market months in advance. Right now clients are paying a lot less than 6 months ago.

I have never used the meat as an extra income as I use it myself, if it is available. Suppose you can see that as a xtra income.

It is all about your bussiness model, if done correctly you will still get your income. I have a Rand value that I must earn, not a $ value.

I wouldn't think of charging a "penalty" either but I do understand the frustration of outfitters when many animals are wounded and even missed on safari. One of my clients shot at 13 animals, "missing" 6 and wounding 2 leaving him with 5 animals to take home.

A little bit off the topic: Although we couldn't find blood, I'm convinced that some of these "misses" were in fact "hits" and analysing the hunt afterwards I came to the conclusion that my client was shooting at the middle (guts) of the animal as opposed to the vitals as just about all the animals he missed / wounded were standing broadside. The ones he did manage to kill standing broadside required follow-up shots whilst the ones that were standing facing us head-on were cleanly killed with well-placed shots.

Fortunately my client wasn't an ass, as the one JJ referred to apparently was. He was just inexperienced and young and I know that when he returns next year he'll do much better.

JJ - IMO as other stated, client is clear with paying trophy fee for wounded and lost and meat issue should not be their problem - you have allready made a step into right direction by employing tracking dog - it is allready paying off in both ways as you said - you get your meat and your client his trophy with encreased likelihood - especially in present days when a really good tracker is more and more hard to find.

Chris - on "misses" - we (Slovenia - EU) have found time ago that many times when big game was pronounced missed by shooter (no signs on the spot, game behaving normaly) that animal was not just hit but also gained after checking with trained dog. So in 1996 we started to monitor all those "presumed missed" trackings and get some interesting results.

Trackings made upon assumed misses for a period 1996 - 2005

1996 211 40 18,9
1997 297 88 29,6
1998 378 90 23,8
1999 400 89 22,2
2000 409 82 20,0
2001 441 99 22,5
2002 487 109 22,4
2003 453 106 23,4
2004 612 94 15,4
2005 778 138 17,7

1st column - year
2nd column - number of "presumed mised" trackings
3rd column - number of game gained on that trackings
4th column - percentage of succes


Numbers were essentiall and today (from 2004) there is a law which orders that any shot taken at big game and pronounced as a miss must be checked with proven tracking dog.

Taking in account that average PH has a better knowledge and eye for observing than average hunter and most of the hunts in Africa are made by the daylight those numbers are undoubtedly smaller but still should not be negligible.

Interesting discussion.

First, I also do not agree with a 'penalty' . . . too many variables and would hope it applies to a small percentage of hunters.

But Secondly, I will also say that I do NOT shoot unnecessarily and as fast as I can until the the animal falls down -- that's just wasting meat in my book. And that even though I'm not going to be eating it!! I personally think that a pathetic practice. Because it's not mine I don't care? C'mon, where were the crosshairs when you pulled the trigger? If you shoot and hunt enough, the answer to that question will determine if you need to follow up (plains game anyway -- I could see following thru on larger dangerous game though). One more comment, you could also think of the Earth as a fence, hence, everything you hunt is penned in. What about natural 'fences' -- water, roads, railways, that keep most animals in a certain area? Size? That's another ballgame though, but to say you will never hunt anything fenced may not be true, you may have, you just didn't know it because of the size of the area you just never saw the barriers.

Anyway, just my .01 cents, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

JJHACK, many game farms charge us local meat hunters the following additional charges:

Shot missed - starting with say $30 for first shot missed; $40 for second and finally thereafter $50 per every next shot missed.

Tracking fee - $50 per hour or part thereof for time utilised to track down wounded animal.

Pros:
Hunters quickly learn to shoot accurately, as well as only when they're sure it will be a good hit.
Very few, if any at all, lost animals due to far better shot placement.
Game not unnecessarily spooked by large numbers of shots being fired irresponsibly on the game farm.

Cons:
May lose some hunters not sure of their hunting abilities. But this is actually a gain!
Only hunters who really miss or wound animals pay the penalty. Guys who can shoot properly are not bothered by this ruling.

A fair chase agreement, don't you think?

JJ-
Thanks for the thought provoking post. Here is my opinion -

1. Make the pricing as simple as possible. I like one number (when possible) to consider that includes dayrates, trophy fees of anticipated animals, dip/pack, transfers.

2. I absolutely detest and will not hunt in places that have a sliding scale on the trophy fee depending on the size of the horns/antlers.

3. I agree with the posters above on exchange rates - the problem cuts both ways and it is part of the cost of doing business. It is what it is, the same as airplane tickets and gasoline prices.

4. No mention has been made on tips (yes, I know this subject was beating to death recently and will continue to generate comment in the future). The sale of the meat is a "bonus" to the outfitter, but what about tips? If an outfit's success hinges on tips and meat sales, he is not going to survive in the business.

5. Service and quality of PH's/trackers are what sell a hunt. I have yet to read a report from someone who, having taken respectable animals, hunting with a quality PH and tracker and was treated with respect and treated as valued customer - ever complained about accomodations or price. Most of the reports on this site never mention the cost when the service and respectable animals were present.

All of this to say - price your hunts to make whatever profit you can, treat your customers as you would like to be treated, provide access to respectable animals - and you will make more money than you can count. Leave the petty, penalty type of charges off the sheet. They infuriate people and will not make a friend for the next hunt. Word of mouth will kill your business if people are not treated well. THe entire experience needs to be positive and note penal.

Good luck....

This is somewhat redundant, but I think the additional "lost" animal fee is a terrible idea. Not from the monetary standpoint for either the hunter or the seller but from a marketing view.

Maybe it is cultural, but in my experience Americans in particular hate being nickeled and dimed. They like a clean cost structure. I think this concept would cost the sellers much more in potential lost business than they would gain.

IF it is a real economic issue then the calculations mentioned in some prior posts should be done and X dollars added to the daily or trophy fees across the board. True, the good shots would be subsidizing the poor ones, but better performing people subsidize poorer ones everyday in everyway, at least in the US. My experience in South Africa is limited, but even with that limited experience your statement that " Most camps are at a level of service and luxury that are very close in value." has not been my experience. Some are a helluva lot better than others and don't charge that much, if any, more. That is more important to me than the minimal cost differences associated with this lost animal.

Jagter,

I know about these policies which is why I originated this post. The feeling seems to be that the rules which apply to meat hunters should also apply to visiting sport hunters.

I doubt this will ever come to pass. However I wanted to share some insight to the "behind the scenes" conversation many landowners and outfitters are talking about these days. I think the people here would be interested to know some of the thought process going on in RSA. This feedback is awefully powerful to share with the outfitters and landowners I work with every day.

Anyhow, thanks for the comments
geniet die dag

Gotta get my 2 cents worth in on this one, though I don't post often. If some outfitters think $100 extra for losing the meat they will sell is fair, then I think deducting $100 from the trophy fee is fair for every one shot kill (minimal tissure damage and less tracking if any) makes about as much sense.

You should charge the PH $100 for every animal wounded and lost. He'll be a lot more diligent about sizing up the client's abilities and a lot less vocal about pulling the trigger on an iffy shot.

Well, ForrestB beat me to it!

I think the PH should pay the $100 [if anyone!]. If he'd gotten the client close enough to make the shot he would not have been lost. [The PH must, of course, have figured out how well the client shoots.] The PH's will also need to brush up on their shooting skills as they "back up" their clients.

The $100 [R700] is in many cases equal to the entire cost of the animal that the rancher charges the PH/Outfitter - seems like a lot of penalty.
[And if the hunter pays for another trophy beyond the one lost - doesn't that meat profit soften the blow, or replace it entirely?]

Jagter, They are charging you locals $50/hour for tracking??? Isn't that more than 10 times the trackers daily pay? They charge you Dollars?

JJHack, this idea is ridiculous. The RSA outfitters need to think of ways to encourage more hunters to hunt there, not ways to chase them away. It is clear to see from the hunt reports here on AR that RSA is losing a lot of business to Namibia. The RSA outfitters need to make it MUCH less burdensome to hunt there to soften the blow of traveling on SAA and dealing with the SAPS gun restrictions. Or they will continue to loose more and more hunters to the competitor locations.

Les

What blows me away is the amount of missing and wounding that goes on. Did no one learn how to hunt and shoot when they were growing up?

I've never wounded and lost anything bigger than a turkey. Had I shot at, wounded, and lost a deer while I was growing up my dad would probably have let me sit out a season. Anymore people aren't ashamed when they lose wounded game. They used to be.

As far as structuring / regulating RSA hunts anymore than they already are, I think that will be a mistake. It won't affect me because I've hunted RSA once. It's not on my agenda again. I liked Zimbabwe. I'll go back or try Zambia or Tanzania. I'm always looking for a hunting experience. (I understand Nambia is not much different than RSA so that's off my list as well.)

I'm sure there will be no shortage of people going to RSA whether you change the rules or not. The advantage I see to hunting RSA is that generally I believe the trophy quality will be higher there than a free-range hunt.

No surprise that trophy quality would be higher on a game farm. You raise animals in a pasture, whether it is gemsbok, mule deer or elk, and you can grow some nice heads.

quote:

Jagter, They are charging you locals $50/hour for tracking??? Isn't that more than 10 times the trackers daily pay? They charge you Dollars?

The $ figures were just given as an example of what could be charged.

Tracking fees for wounded animals on local hunters can vary from R100 to R350 per hour.

"10 x daily pay" - I think you don't understand what tracking of a wounded animal could entail - it could mean much more than one tracker being involved, even a hired tracker dog team and most of the time other personnel like PH, etc. might also get involved.
Whilst all of this is in process many other tasks are left until animal is recovered and should then be completed thereafter resulting in overtime for people involved in the search.

All this is costing money - these behind the curtain actions are what you and me the hunter, doesn't always see and realise that's what make it all possible for us to enjoy our hunt!

Any outfit charging per missed shot and then tracking fees gets given a WIDE berth.

A missed shot is a missed shot dammit, and if the animal bounds away then no harm is done. You'll check where it was standing for signs of a hit, but if there are none then you'll move on to the next stalk and hopefully a better conclusion. All you are out is a lost opportunity and the cost of a cartridge.

It's a bullshit concept started by some of the farmers to punish the lousy shots and it is now rife in the industry.

As for charging for the tracking, don't get me started. It's part of the job, you do it, you get paid to do it, it is part of the trophy fee. A PH lucks out, gets a client who can shoot well then he doesn't have to work so much but if he gets a duffer, well he just has to buckle down and take the rough with the smooth.

And now charging an extra $100 for the loss of meat? It'll die in the crib.

Reminds me of the story of the client who shot a buff somewhere and the PH was rubbing his hands with glee at all the tom he was going to get from selling the meat. Client and PH have not been getting on at all well.
Client asks "This is my buff, right? I mean I own it, right?"
PH (unsure where the client is heading with this):'Yeah..I suppose so"
Clients: "OK, let's you and me cut up this bad boy and donate it to that village we saw back there, they looked pretty hungry."

I can't remember the PH's reaction to that, but it could not have been too good.

Cheers

pete

/

You also could consider the following:

You wound an impala and it gets away and then dies 3 days later. A leopard eats it, saving that leopard from killing an impala of its own.

I'm not sure how often this exact scenario would unfold, but after reading this thread for a few days, it made me think that nothing is going to waste actually. Something will eat the dead animal, and somewhere along the line that might be offset by saving a different animal from getting killed by predators.

Who knows, just a thought...

I believe in the "you broke it, you bought it" plan. Full trophy fee for a lost or wounded animal.

I paid full ticket ($2500) for a hippo that washed away in the Zambezi, and I would pay Kyler if I shot and lost a pig on his property. Just my opinion on the matter...

Something that I didn't see anywhere else -

If a PH gets paid extra because the animal isn't found - won't that motivate him to NOT find the wounded animal? If I am the hunter we can't find the animal, and everyone is looking -I'll be thinking maybe they aren't looking as hard as they should be because they make $$ not to find it.

/

quote:

Originally posted by Jagter:

quote:

Jagter, They are charging you locals $50/hour for tracking??? Isn't that more than 10 times the trackers daily pay? They charge you Dollars?

The $ figures were just given as an example of what could be charged.

Tracking fees for wounded animals on local hunters can vary from R100 to R350 per hour.

"10 x daily pay" - I think you don't understand what tracking of a wounded animal could entail - it could mean much more than one tracker being involved, even a hired tracker dog team and most of the time other personnel like PH, etc. might also get involved.
Whilst all of this is in process many other tasks are left until animal is recovered and should then be completed thereafter resulting in overtime for people involved in the search.

All this is costing money - these behind the curtain actions are what you and me the hunter, doesn't always see and realise that's what make it all possible for us to enjoy our hunt!

You hunt at the wrong places oom. Drive down to Groblersdal, about 1 hour from where you are, and you will get charged R100.00 for a missed shot, but no tracking fees.

On the international stage, which is the relevant part of this. I agree with Jaco, we work the same way. You price your hunt, and that is it, no extras like that. Most of the international visitors are good shots. They prepare for something that is costing more than a casual trip down to Walmart on Saturday.

I do not know of this "behind the scenes" talk that is going on in the industry in SA. We are in the industry, and although not the biggest and well known outfit(yet), are in constant dialogue with organisations like PHASA (professional hunters orginisation of South Africa) and SCi SA chapter, as well as numerous other outfitters, PH's and land owners. None of them in the last couple of years, even discussed that.

We would never charge such a fee. It is unfair. Any good shot and hunter, wounds an animal sometime. He feel like sh%$*t in any case, why punish him more, and rub salt into OPEN wounds.

May this never happen.

Chris, have you decided yet to get a 416 rigby when "son where are you shooting at " returns with his 30-06 and 125gr.'s
You should post that story on AR too, it will get a few interesting comments !

www.infinito-safaris.com

I don't wish to give the PH an incentive to lose game that I've shot, and $100 is such a thing.

Also, though I'm sure it's rare, there are reports of PHs who encourage an iffy shot after a long stalk in the knowledge that the trackers are good enough to find most animals, and that they'll be paid as much for blood as for a downed animal, anyway.

I'm planning my first African hunt, but I would not be interested in hunting under those conditions.

Jaywalker

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:

quote:

There are Outfitters who also started a fee for each shot too if you remember back a year or so ago that was in another thread. I don't recall who started that but if I recall properly there was a guy posting that the meat damage was so excessive by some hunters shooting the heck out of the animals that they had no usable meat remaining.

That did not fly very well either!

I guess I missed that one! Damn right it won't fly! I am hunting trophies and could care less about his meat. If he needs meat, then hunt meat not trophies. I have only lost two animals in over 40 years of foreign hunting, but I am going to shoot until the animal is down, dead. None of this "don't shoot again, you hit him good" for me. If I am paying I am shooting until I am satisfied, to the heck with his meat. I am paying the fee, if he gets a steak fine, if he don't that's fine with me too.
What about hunts in wild remote areas where the only meat that gets out is whatever biltong the staff may spoil in the wind? Would you expect to surchange that too? How about paying me if they don't properly handle the meat? What about bait animals, he gets no meat off of them? Or does he act like a poacher and go around and cut down your baits to get some meat to sell. I think those that think this is a good idea need to forget hunting and hire cullers to put their meat on the market.
I don't know anyone that intends to wound any animal, but things happen. The older I get the more grumpy I get, but this deal of a drop of blood and you pay seems to have developed from game "farming" or ranching or what ever you call it, but it was never an issue in the countries I hunted in the '70's. Rules may have been there, but never lost anthing, so never heard of them like you do today. General licenses covered a lot of animals and if one was lost there was maybe more on license, now it's dollar you to death on every animal.

I dont agree with the fee either. If you could careless rather an animal has any edible meat on it after you shoot it then maybe you need an ethics class.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete Millan:
Any outfit charging per missed shot and then tracking fees gets given a WIDE berth.

A missed shot is a missed shot dammit, and if the animal bounds away then no harm is done. You'll check where it was standing for signs of a hit, but if there are none then you'll move on to the next stalk and hopefully a better conclusion. All you are out is a lost opportunity and the cost of a cartridge.

It's a bullshit concept started by some of the farmers to punish the lousy shots and it is now rife in the industry.

As for charging for the tracking, don't get me started. It's part of the job, you do it, you get paid to do it, it is part of the trophy fee. A PH lucks out, gets a client who can shoot well then he doesn't have to work so much but if he gets a duffer, well he just has to buckle down and take the rough with the smooth.

And now charging an extra $100 for the loss of meat? It'll die in the crib.

Reminds me of the story of the client who shot a buff somewhere and the PH was rubbing his hands with glee at all the tom he was going to get from selling the meat. Client and PH have not been getting on at all well.
Client asks "This is my buff, right? I mean I own it, right?"
PH (unsure where the client is heading with this):'Yeah..I suppose so"
Clients: "OK, let's you and me cut up this bad boy and donate it to that village we saw back there, they looked pretty hungry."

I can't remember the PH's reaction to that, but it could not have been too good.

Cheers

pete

I think this is a well said post.
I agree 100% I think if you pay for the animal that you should own it. I dont think the PH or the outfitter or whoever should get a dime from the meat. I mean if I paid for it and I own it then I should get the money for the meat.

infinito wrote:

quote:

You hunt at the wrong places oom. Drive down to Groblersdal, about 1 hour from where you are, and you will get charged R100.00 for a missed shot, but no tracking fees.

Funny enough boetie, not one hunter in our regular hunting group has ever paid any fees for missed shots. Also no tracking fees paid by any of us since we know how to place our shots properly and secure.

However, the one time we hunted near Groblersdal was the worst experience we ever had, so much so that we have never considered the region again.
Outfitter was out and out on a rip-off mission and tried, without success, to charge us all sorts of extra fees which were never even mentioned in the terms and conditions.

Game farms in that area tend to be stocked from outside and one gets the feeling of a canned type of hunt.
Not acceptable at all.

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
I do not know of this "behind the scenes" talk that is going on in the industry in SA. We are in the industry, and although not the biggest and well known outfit(yet), are in constant dialogue with organisations like PHASA (professional hunters orginisation of South Africa) and SCi SA chapter

I'm not sure that these "behind the scenes" discussions would come up at PHASA meetings as it doesn't concern them. I do know that many landowners and Outfitters have expressed their concerns regarding this issue though - rightly or wrongly so.

quote:

Chris, have you decided yet to get a 416 rigby when "son where are you shooting at " returns with his 30-06 and 125gr.'s?
You should post that story on AR too, it will get a few interesting comments !

Have a Rigby thx - no need to use that as backup on plainsgame though.

Having hunted africa a few times over the past 5 years I really disagree with the reasoning behind these additional charges. Also, the continued talk about the exchange rate driving up prices is something that all American hunters are really sick of hearing about. As has already been pointed out, back in 2002, when the Dollar soared to almost 12:1 against the Rand, nobody lowered their prices or gave their clients a break. In fact, this year the exchange rate was 6:1 just prior to the beginning of the safari season, and has been steadily climbing since then. Today it is 7.41:1 -- so, based on this logic, I can't wait to see the 23.5% reduction in daily rates and trophy fees -- NOT!

If you want to raise your rates, be a man about it and raise them. People will either come or they won't. Americans generally like to look people in the eye, make an agreement (including a set price), and honor what was agreed to. When outfitters go nickel and diming, or not following through on what was agreed to, that's when all hell breaks loose with a client.

Quit blaming the exchange rate as an excuse to raise prices -- it is a lie! If not, then you should be currently discounting your hunts booked at the SCI show by 23.5%, as that is how much the rate has changed in your favor since then. I doubt if any of you are doing that.

Actually, I really would like the hunt prices to be strictly linked to the exchange rates. If that were the case, a Zimbabwe Elephant hunt would cost about $25, but it doesn't.

Clients aren't the only parties who are affected by volatile exchange rates and I would like put this issue into perspective - specifically as far as trophy fees in South Africa is concerned:

This is all part of a vicious circle which is being primarily driven by landowners (who are being paid in ZAR) in SA - not the Outfitters - who get their income in $$$.

E.g.

The outfitter gets quoted ZAR3,500 by the landowner for a kudu bull when the rate is 5/1 and he charges his clients $900 for the same animal so he should make a profit of $200.

The landowner sees / hears what the outfitter is charging and increases his price to ZAR4,500. Having no alternative, the outfitter raises the price of his kudu and books a client for a kudu hunt at a $1,100 trophy fee.

By the time the client arrives the exchange rate has dropped to 4/1 and the outfitter ends up taking a loss of $25. Remember, the landowner gets paid in ZAR, couldn't give 2 hoots on what happened to the exchange rate and his price remains fixed.

Then the exchange rate goes up to 6/1 and the Outfitter heaves a sigh of relief - a short one though as the landowner who was also checking the exchange rate now lifts his trophy price to ZAR6,000.

Right now, prices for trophy kudu in South Africa ranges between ZAR6,000 and ZAR10,000 so even at the current exchange rate very little money is being made by outfitters who typically charge between $1,200 and $1,600 for kudu.

Thing is that, when the rate goes up, landowners charge more for their animals but they never adjust it when the rate falls again so Outfitters are sitting in the exact same position as the clients who hunt with them.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
I do not know of this "behind the scenes" talk that is going on in the industry in SA. We are in the industry, and although not the biggest and well known outfit(yet), are in constant dialogue with organisations like PHASA (professional hunters orginisation of South Africa) and SCi SA chapter

I'm not sure that these "behind the scenes" discussions would come up at PHASA meetings as it doesn't concern them. I do know that many landowners and Outfitters have expressed their concerns regarding this issue though - rightly or wrongly so.

quote:

Chris, have you decided yet to get a 416 rigby when "son where are you shooting at " returns with his 30-06 and 125gr.'s?
You should post that story on AR too, it will get a few interesting comments !

Have a Rigby thx - no need to use that as backup on plainsgame though.

Light up buddy, the thing about the Rigby was a joke.

I never said PHASA meetings, but we are in dialogue with some of the members and the management every now and again to get info and news, and if this was a big discussion, as the original poster wanted us to believe, I think we would have heard something.....The same goes for landowners and other colleagues. It is called the grapevine. Honestly, have you heard of any of this "behind the scenes talks"......

quote:

Light up buddy, the thing about the Rigby was a joke.

Hey bro, that's how I interpreted it

quote:

I never said PHASA meetings, but we are in dialogue with some of the members and the management every now and again to get info and news, and if this was a big discussion, as the original poster wanted us to believe, I think we would have heard something.....The same goes for landowners and other colleagues. It is called the grapevine. Honestly, have you heard of any of this "behind the scenes talks"......

Honestly Charl I have, as mentioned though, i would never even think of introducing penalties for bad shots.

/

quote:

Originally posted by Jagter:
JJHACK, many game farms charge us local meat hunters the following additional charges:

Shot missed - starting with say $30 for first shot missed; $40 for second and finally thereafter $50 per every next shot missed.

Tracking fee - $50 per hour or part thereof for time utilised to track down wounded animal.

Pros:
Hunters quickly learn to shoot accurately, as well as only when they're sure it will be a good hit.
Very few, if any at all, lost animals due to far better shot placement.
Game not unnecessarily spooked by large numbers of shots being fired irresponsibly on the game farm.

Cons:
May lose some hunters not sure of their hunting abilities. But this is actually a gain!
Only hunters who really miss or wound animals pay the penalty. Guys who can shoot properly are not bothered by this ruling.

A fair chase agreement, don't you think?

I would like to respond as follow:
1.) I think it is unfair to say many Game farms charge these rates for biltong hunters
R200.00 for a missed shot? It happens, but not on many farms.
2.)R300.00 per hour tracking fee? That does sound like a rip of, and I have never come across it. Are this on the open, fair chase farms you hunt, where they do not stock the animals from the outside?
3.) The cost of wounding an animal and paying the “trophy†(the animal whether it is Biltong or not) fee, should be enough motivation to NOT wound, and take ONE careful shot.
4.) Most Biltong hunters are ethical, walk and stalk, hunters, and will take one carefully aimed shot at an animal.
5.) Like every hunter would know, if you hunt a lot, sometimes animals will get a bad shot, we all get it. Again, the knowledge that you are going to pay if you wound is enough of a motivation to do the job properly. I just don’t want to sit with a calculator and work out how much this animal is going to cost IF it gets wounded….

quote:

Originally posted by Jagter:
infinito wrote:

quote:

You hunt at the wrong places oom. Drive down to Groblersdal, about 1 hour from where you are, and you will get charged R100.00 for a missed shot, but no tracking fees.

Funny enough boetie, not one hunter in our regular hunting group has ever paid any fees for missed shots. Also no tracking fees paid by any of us since we know how to place our shots properly and secure.

However, the one time we hunted near Groblersdal was the worst experience we ever had, so much so that we have never considered the region again.
Outfitter was out and out on a rip-off mission and tried, without success, to charge us all sorts of extra fees which were never even mentioned in the terms and conditions.

Game farms in that area tend to be stocked from outside and one gets the feeling of a canned type of hunt.
Not acceptable at all.

It is a real pity you had the bad experience. I have had them all over Southern Africa from time to time. You live in the “regionâ€, so I take it you do not hunt Blesbuck and other species near Witbank.

Your statement about THAT area. Unfair, you are putting a whole area down, specifically, where a lot of good, honest people make a living out of hunting.

Game farms in this area are like Game farms all over South Africa, so then you are putting them all down. Where in SA do game farms not buy animals on auctions from time to time? That is why we have this Hunting industry my friend, because of farms. And you should know about having game ranching to thank for the abundance of game in SA at the moment….. Our main hunting areas for Plains Game are 3400ha and 4000ha respectively. For the bigger stuff we go elsewhere.

You crossed the line with that comment Sir. I invite you to send me a PM message, naming the Outfit that tried to do you in, and gave this lovely valley such a bad name on the international stage. This forum is not meant for a p….contest, but I would not let you trample this area into the ground as you have.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:

quote:

Light up buddy, the thing about the Rigby was a joke.

Hey bro, that's how I interpreted it

quote:

I never said PHASA meetings, but we are in dialogue with some of the members and the management every now and again to get info and news, and if this was a big discussion, as the original poster wanted us to believe, I think we would have heard something.....The same goes for landowners and other colleagues. It is called the grapevine. Honestly, have you heard of any of this "behind the scenes talks"......

Honestly Charl I have, as mentioned though, i would never even think of introducing penalties for bad shots.

Tjorts Bru, I missed that bit, I picked that up just now...

infinito wrote:

quote:

2.)R300.00 per hour tracking fee? That does sound like a rip of, and I have never come across it. Are this on the open, fair chase farms you hunt, where they do not stock the animals from the outside?

Not at all, but that was what an outfitter in the Groblersdal area told us the moment we set foot on the place - note not R300, but R350!!!
We were not worried about that and all the animals we took were done with one shot kills.
Next we were not allowed to take our vehicles in to the bush camp, no they will supply us with transport - at a damn high cost of course we learned too late, unfortunately!

quote:

You live in the “regionâ€, so I take it you do not hunt Blesbuck and other species near Witbank.

I don't know how you get to this part as it has nothing to do with Groblersdal. Anyhow, you're dead wrong, we do hunt Blesbuck in the Highveld region surrounding Witbank, Middelburg, Belfast and Ermelo. Never have we ever had such nonsense.

quote:

You crossed the line with that comment Sir. I invite you to send me a PM message, naming the Outfit that tried to do you in.

I'm of the opinion that you, Sir crossed the line already with your next comment not even knowing what it all was about -

quote:

You hunt at the wrong places oom. Drive down to Groblersdal, about 1 hour from where you are, and you will get charged R100.00 for a missed shot, but no tracking fees.

What's more, at the time of our departure from this Groblersdal game ranch, we were told that we can collect our venison in ten days time, prepared according to our request at a cost of R5.00/kg + all spices, etc. used to do so.
They didn't get away with this slimy trick, we simply loaded our game out of their cooling room and told them to go and jump in the lake - sorry Loskop dam!!!

My friend, do you really expect us to ever hunt in that little valley again?

Does the outfitter Bushfellows still exist in your area?

quote:

The landowner sees / hears what the outfitter is charging and increases his price to ZAR4,500. Having no alternative, the outfitter raises the price of his kudu and books a client for a kudu hunt at a $1,100 trophy fee.

Good reason to hunt kudu in Zimbabwe where the trophy fee for kudu is $800-900 US.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Jagter:
infinito wrote:

quote:

2.)R300.00 per hour tracking fee? That does sound like a rip of, and I have never come across it. Are this on the open, fair chase farms you hunt, where they do not stock the animals from the outside?

Not at all, but that was what an outfitter in the Groblersdal area told us the moment we set foot on the place - note not R300, but R350!!!
We were not worried about that and all the animals we took were done with one shot kills.
Next we were not allowed to take our vehicles in to the bush camp, no they will supply us with transport - at a damn high cost of course we learned too late, unfortunately!

quote:

You live in the “regionâ€, so I take it you do not hunt Blesbuck and other species near Witbank.

I don't know how you get to this part as it has nothing to do with Groblersdal. Anyhow, you're dead wrong, we do hunt Blesbuck in the Highveld region surrounding Witbank, Middelburg, Belfast and Ermelo. Never have we ever had such nonsense.

quote:

You crossed the line with that comment Sir. I invite you to send me a PM message, naming the Outfit that tried to do you in.

I'm of the opinion that you, Sir crossed the line already with your next comment not even knowing what it all was about -

quote:

You hunt at the wrong places oom. Drive down to Groblersdal, about 1 hour from where you are, and you will get charged R100.00 for a missed shot, but no tracking fees.

What's more, at the time of our departure from this Groblersdal game ranch, we were told that we can collect our venison in ten days time, prepared according to our request at a cost of R5.00/kg + all spices, etc. used to do so.
They didn't get away with this slimy trick, we simply loaded our game out of their cooling room and told them to go and jump in the lake - sorry Loskop dam!!!

My friend, do you really expect us to ever hunt in that little valley again?

Does the outfitter Bushfellows still exist in your area?

The comment about Witbank area might have been a bit unfair and short sighted, BUT it is only 100 km form Groblersdal....HOWEVER..


I'm sorry, but you do not keep to the spirit of this forum, where open civilized debates about hunting takes place, without degraded comments like you are making. If you got worked up because I called you oom (your picture shows you to be one, as far as I was concerned), and tried to give you some sound advise of where good, fair chase hunting is to be had, close to your home. I will certainly not call you oom again, the endearment and respect accompanying the term does not apply to you as far as I am concerned.

The point is you made comments, on a web-site where the participants are mostly international and professional big game trophy hunters, that are total BS. The charges and bad experiences you and your companions had on one, 400ha "farm", hardly qualifies you to comment on "many game farms charges us...." I deal with a lot more game farms than you do (guaranteed, as I make a living out of it), from the Eastern Cape, Karoo, Kalahari, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, and no where have I came across this, with direct ref to the tracking fees, per hour, for wounded game.....Maybe the Biltong hunting scene changed so much, that I am totally out of touch, but then again, my dad and brother spends about R40 000.00 "biltong" hunting each year, and they also seem to miss your point....

Bushfellows exist, but I'm not familiar with the new management. I know the "pen" well, we used to do the "Kommando" camps next door.

If you did your homework, you would have known, from ref, that the farm is about 400ha, and not at all what I would call a hunting farm....Cant believe you did not pack up and leave after your first game drive, you having such a big problem with a stocked farm. Maybe they bought some more land recently, but it used to be a 400ha bow farm......Well known Bow Hunter Johan Grove developed this farm back in the early nineties. I can also suggest you being careful when you name a business like that on the Internet, that is why I invited you to a private conversation...

Back to the point, as I will not bore any more readers with this....

I appeal to all PH's and Outfitters out there, as well as Game ranchers, that will read this. See and learn what our CLIENTS have to say about this (meaning all the replies this thread got), and never make the mistake of asking money for missed shots, they will simply go and hunt elsewhere.

My vote as a PH is NAYE!!

infinito wrote:

quote:

I'm sorry, but you do not keep to the spirit of this forum, where open civilized debates about hunting takes place, without degraded comments like you are making.

I again think you are missing the point with this forum.

It is intended to serve as a source of knowledge sharing, information, experiences both bad and good, from which hunters can learn in advance, without having to go through the same pitfalls others already had and in the process weed out the poor service rendering outfitters, services and products on offer as far as possible.

That's why JJHACK came up with his post to test the general feeling hunters have about his subject.
I merely commented on what we had experienced on some occasions (Note: plural of one single occasion), without mentioning any specific areas or outfitters, until you barged in rudely, after having hunted over a wide range of areas in SA. If you find that degrading and uncivilized, go ahead and feel free to do so where you are on your own.

quote:

If you did your homework, you would have known, from ref, that the farm is about 400ha, and not at all what I would call a hunting farm.

Again, you are quite pigheaded to barge in each time without knowing the full background to it all. We were informed that one or more neighbouring farm/s were already purchased bringing the total hunting area up to 1100ha. which can be hunted. This also turned out to be far from the whole truth at the time.

The outfitter I have named publicly on an international forum deserves to get such a reference - it is in the interest of all hunters visiting this forum.

Lastly, my being as a person and a hunter on this forum or wherever is not in the least dependant on your unsolicited respect.

I will pass your comments onto the outfitter concerned to get his input from the whole story. I do not know him, but feel that a side has two stories, and by the way you replied so far, it is going to be interesting to hear his side.

I did not "barge" in anywhere. You, like a lot of South African hunters, like to comment on things on the SA hunting scene(which I still believe you thicked on) that sound sentational, but not the whole story. Then we, that make our living out of this industry, are left to explain to foreign clients what the real situation is.

Just a quick one. How many farms charged you ANY tracking fees for wounded game? While you are in the naming game, and do not see a problem with that, please give us the names of those farms, so that we all can make a point of not hunting there...( I presume there is more than one,plural and all that)

Still you use the degrading comments you made :I'm "pig headed". Not very professional, or civilized...I must have stirred your pot realy bad. I worked with the info given.

A humble word of advise, never GO to a hunting farm without prior signing of Terms and conditions, and when the landowner deviate from the same, LEAVE before shooting 1 animal. Then you can take him to court if you wish....ANY ref. that you checked out would have said to you that the farm is only 400ha (1000acres) big.

If any Outfitter reads this, I will love to hear if you ever came across this hourly tracking rate of wounded game in SA, and where this happened, so that I can make a point of NEVER going there. If the case is proven that this is the norm on a lot of game farms, I will humbly apologise to "jagter" and leave it there.

I will not comment on this any furhter, other that if you can give us the names of the farms and their owners. They might have an interesting story to tell.