I stand to be corrected, but I have picked up on a trend, a nasty trend at that, which I honestly feel we, as a group of like-minded, responsible, gun-toting members of society need to put right.

These forums are an outlet for sharing experiences, both good and bad, for sharing information, both good and bad and for sharing knowledge, of which the spectrum is vast, entertaining and worthy.

The trend I am referring is how a post is "hijacked" and almost turned into a vitriol of hatred and slander against a member or an outfitter/PH, more specifically in the interests of divulging information to either credit or discredit the particular outfit.

Let's take "De Klerk Safaris" as an example. It began with a specific request on information about the operator and his ability to provide a service. Follow it and see for yourself. It has deteriorated into a fighting match over "canned lion" hunting, to such a point that one of the members has made a public apology to a Botswana member for falsely accusing them of their participation in the "canned" industry.

Another thread discusses hunting with Craig Boddington, and YES you guessed it, it too turns into a personal attack on Craig and his past. WHY? The thread was never meant to be a debate on his financial history.

Gentlemen, (with apologies to the fairer sex who indulge in these threads)......two words, GROW UP. There is so much negativity in the world today, lets start a new trend and break away from it !! There will always be issues between people, let them resolve those issues between themselves. That's what adults do.

Lets keep this forum a place of good positive feedback from experiences, a place where ideas and knowledge is shared. Let the bad experiences be told too, and let us learn something from them and move forward.

May our hunting experiences for 2015 be all we hope they will be.

Morten

Right on, Neil!

Gotta agree with you

.

BINGO!

It's the VERY REASON some of us don't participate here as often as in the past. I graduated from kindergarten a long time ago!

Unfortunately you won't get any positive comments from the detractors.

Gentlemen,

Sometimes, the truth is not what we wish for.

In the instance of De Klerk Safaris, I think the thread was very informative.

In the instance of Craig, members HAVE been affected by his declaring bankruptcy, so I do not see any reason why members cannot have an open discussion.

As far as I am concerned Craig has done more for African hunting in modern times than anyone I know of.

I have a lot of respect for him, and on the few occasions when we had contact he never gave me the impression of anything but being a perfect gentleman.

But, I have had correspondence from members of AR who have been very negatively affected by him.

I have no reason to doubt what they have said, especial;;y as they have always came through in my dealings with them as perfect gentlemen.

AR has always been an open, live, discussion forum, and that is the way it will remain.

I get a bit tired by some individuals who continuously state that they do not frequent AR because it is not run the way they wish to be.

If you feel that bad about it, why bother come here at all?

Saeed is it not better to try and fix things from the inside rather than stand outside and just cast dispersions. Those that have been "been hurt" by Craigs supposed actions bring them to the open. Share the information with supporting documents. Fair is fair.

Ed,

If it was me he had hurt, I will have no hesitation in posting all the gory details.

At least one of our members is keeping a close eye on this thread, it is his choice if he wishes to chime in.

I see no reason not to start a separate thread rather than hijack one already started.

I don't think offering an opinion on canned lion hunts is wrong - just mis-placed when attached to a post about a particular outfit.

If you wish to bash somebody, don't do it at the expense of an original poster's efforts - start your own thread. There are plenty of electrons to go around

I have a particular aversion to chasing rabbit trails (perhaps I lack the ability to focus on more than one topic at a time) - whether it is in a meeting or on a forum!

99.99% of the people here would give their right testicle to have lived 1/10th of the adventure life Craig has.

It is very difficult to make Colonel in any branch of service, especially the Marines.

It is very difficult to take all of the Big Five, let alone more than one of each.

It is very difficult to host a long running TV show, let alone one about hunting Africa. We can all see what has happened to TAA since he was undercut there while recovering from the heart attack.

It just is not easy being Craig, with all of the pressures of his very full and complicated life.

Rich

Neil,

I was out of line with Safaris Botswana Bound and have admitted it.

My bitch was more the shadowy advertising of canned Lion and not the process.

I did not know he had a heart attack. What year?

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
99.99% of the people here would give their right testicle to have lived 1/10th of the adventure life Craig has.

It is very difficult to make Colonel in any branch of service, especially the Marines.

It is very difficult to take all of the Big Five, let alone more than one of each.

It is very difficult to host a long running TV show, let alone one about hunting Africa. We can all see what has happened to TAA since he was undercut there while recovering from the heart attack.

It just is not easy being Craig, with all of the pressures of his very full and complicated life.

Rich

Were under attack by the anti-hunters like never before...

United we stand, divided we fall.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
99.99% of the people here would give their right testicle to have lived 1/10th of the adventure life Craig has.

It is very difficult to make Colonel in any branch of service, especially the Marines.

It is very difficult to take all of the Big Five, let alone more than one of each.

It is very difficult to host a long running TV show, let alone one about hunting Africa. We can all see what has happened to TAA since he was undercut there while recovering from the heart attack.

It just is not easy being Craig, with all of the pressures of his very full and complicated life.

Rich

Uh....The above is better than being a ditch digger I suppose...

I appreciate being able to come to accuratereloading.com and get the lowdown on outfitters and hunting experiences. I would much rather read about it here than pay money and get burned.

Outfitters should know by now that if they rip someone off many are going to find out about it. If they don't want their dirty laundry aired, then they need to run an honest business.

Outfitters should know by now that if they rip someone off many are going to find out about it. If they don't want their dirty laundry aired, then they need to run an honest business.[/QUOTE]


Or go Bankrupt, screw your creditors, then fly off to the Zambezi Valley??

To be sure it is not missed. Ingwe623 = box of rocks!

[quote]daho Sharpshooter
one of us

posted 26 January 2015 21:45 Hide Post
99.99% of the people here would give their right testicle to have lived 1/10th of the adventure life Craig has.

It is very difficult to make Colonel in any branch of service, especially the Marines.

It is very difficult to take all of the Big Five, let alone more than one of each.

It is very difficult to host a long running TV show, let alone one about hunting Africa. We can all see what has happened to TAA since he was undercut there while recovering from the heart attack.

It just is not easy being Craig, with all of the pressures of his very full and complicated life.

I love hunting as much or more than anyone but God only gave me three testicles and I think I'll hang onto them.

Dutch

I think some are missing the point Neil is making. Certainly the point I was making. And that is that it's fine to air out negatives when appropriate. If someone has a problem on a hunt, with an outfitter, or client, etc., let's hear about it! What gets old is the fact that EVERY thread eventually GETS HIJACKED and spins off the track into a pissing match.

This is certainly not a new concept here but a little bit of consideration for manners would be of great benefit to this forum. For example, Frostbit has raised the point now, several times, that when a hunter posts a hunt report, we should realize that he / she is doing so most likely because they have just had the time of their lives. If it happened to involve an RSA lion hunt and the hunter enjoyed the hunt, spending HIS money, why do some feel the need to denigrate the guy just because his hunt isn't your idea of how you'd like to enjoy YOUR safari on YOUR dime? There are plenty of guys who object to shooting a wild lion over BAIT!! If one feels so inclined to rail against RSA lion hunting, why not just start an Anti RSA Lion Thread and go for it there without alienating the guy who just posted his hunt report.

The same with Boddington (see the hunt report Charl of Infinito Safaris posted relaying his enjoyment of hunting with the Col. and how that turned sour in about 24 hours), Sullivan, SCI, etc. The objection many have is not that negative info is aired out but rather how a thread is started on one topic, only to be hijacked and the following commentary begins circling the drain. Furthermore, that ensuing pissing match almost always contains the same old comments by the same old forum members. It's predictable not only in how long it will take to turn a positive thread negative, but by whom, and about what, who all will join into the bashfest, and the content of their remarks. PREDICTABLE!

THAT ... is what gets old. It's not about interference by the moderators. It's about being considerate to our fellow hunters / forum members and keeping a thread on topic without pissing on someone else's contributions to the discussion just to drive the topic into the gutter. Of course some topics lend themselves to spirited debate, such as when someone asks for an opinion. All bets of off there. But when a guys starts a thread with something to the effect of "Hey guys, I just hunted with XYZ outfit and had a great time in Zim", why respond with "Yea, well I'll never hunt Zim because of Mugabe" or "Yea, well the guy you hunted with screwed me"? Either of those two follow ons would be best suited for a thread of their own instead of pissing on the OP's report.

But then that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Sullivan, SCI

Great way to take this thread to ten pages quick.


Concerning the reason for the thread, Thanks for again bringing the same topic up.

I think when someone is new to this forum, as I was 7 or so years ago, they see an endless stream of information and opinions, have no clue who the posters are or their "cyber personality" or personal wars.

It's the personal wars that become tiresome, when the same posters gang on a particular member for example when he asks a legit question about bugs in the Zambezi Valley in March. We get it!! You don;t like the guy. Why not ignore him?

I'm fairly certain I know who is going to line up where on SCI, Sullivan, And the latest piñata - Lion death in RSA. Notice I did't say "hunting" or "shooting" because simply doing that would have further derailed this thread, as the subject of Boddington, for a moment, already did.

As Todd mentioned concerning Hunt Reports, everyone knows how I and pretty much everyone else feels about that and how they will probably act in future Reports.

This was three years ago.

Anyway, I'm not immune to falling into the trap of arguing for arguments sake. I will do my best to not be that person here on out.


Cheers
Jim

I get Neil.
He is right, but we can't change human nature either.
Some of us bitch more then others because it is our nature and some of us like more informative parts.
And Nature cannot be controlled
In the end, AR is the best there is, especially, because it doesn't try to censor us like other sites.
Ultimately it is up to us individually.

THANKS SAEED FOR ALL THE HARD WORK YOU ARE DOING FOR US ALL

Idaho Sharpshooter
You have zero knowledge of CB's relationship with my company, the reasons for his exit, or any relevant info. I stayed out of the CB discussion, although NO ONE ON AR could shed light on it as well as I. I had my little war, but have moved on and past it. Worship as you will who you want. But Tracks Across Africa will have a great 2015, following a great 13 and 14. I value ratings as much as the next producer, but to be very honest , I have a big smile each week knowing YOU are not tuning in. Our average viewer IQ skyrockets! Please limit your comments to something you know about sir...there has to be something out there that fits that bill, but Africa, and this CB situation ain't it!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
We can all see what has happened to TAA since he was undercut there while recovering from the heart attack.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Idaho Sharpshooter
You have zero knowledge of CB's relationship with my company, the reasons for his exit, or any relevant info. I stayed out of the CB discussion, although NO ONE ON AR could shed light on it as well as I. I had my little war, but have moved on and past it. Worship as you will who you want. But Tracks Across Africa will have a great 2015, following a great 13 and 14. I value ratings as much as the next producer, but to be very honest , I have a big smile each week knowing YOU are not tuning in. Our average viewer IQ skyrockets! Please limit your comments to something you know about sir...there has to be something out there that fits that bill, but Africa, and this CB situation ain't it!

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:

The trend I am referring is how a post is "hijacked" and almost turned into a vitriol of hatred and slander against a member…...

So, Neil, is that an example of what you describe?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Idaho Sharpshooter
You have zero knowledge of CB's relationship with my company, the reasons for his exit, or any relevant info. I stayed out of the CB discussion, although NO ONE ON AR could shed light on it as well as I. I had my little war, but have moved on and past it. Worship as you will who you want. But Tracks Across Africa will have a great 2015, following a great 13 and 14. I value ratings as much as the next producer, but to be very honest , I have a big smile each week knowing YOU are not tuning in. Our average viewer IQ skyrockets! Please limit your comments to something you know about sir...there has to be something out there that fits that bill, but Africa, and this CB situation ain't it!

Wow!!

Appears to be getting closer to the issue at hand by that post

I have been fortunate to never be without employment or close to a bankruptcy however I have hurt a lot of people financially because I live in a capitalistic society where my success was at the expense of my competitors. Sometimes a very significant expense.
Do not think any of us are successful not leaving some spilled blood in our path. We just revel in our wins not really reflecting on how it affects our competition or the people they employ or have to lay off.
Just a way of life. Some people loose their jobs due to our success.
Most attorneys make their living off the perils of others.
Just a different twist. I doubt CB had intentions of not paying his debts.
I can assure that I have every intention of beating my competition in a ethical manner even at the expense of their livelihood!
Does that make me a bad person?
Sometimes we all hurt people even financially but we do recognize these faceless individuals.

Good attorneys repair the perils of others while great attorneys make 'em disappear.

Dutch

Sorry, Neil, will try to focus on the topic next time.

Dutch

As long as it lines their pockets.

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
Good attorneys repair the perils of others while great attorneys make 'em disappear.

Dutch

Above post was rude! My apologies Dutch 44.
To my point someone wins someone loses.

EZ

I like it, eez, no problems. Although w don't live on charity, (unless you're a lazy attorney, which is more common than not) Gotta earn a living!

Any detoured hijacking on this thread has an element of humour attached to it, and that's just fine.......right up until the word LAWYER was mentioned, that's when it turned ugly !!

I just hope the LAWYERS out there don't blast me to kingdom come now !!!

You may be interested to know, I received a few PM's from members (long standing members at that), backing what I had said. They stated that although they still follow our discussions and debates, they will never again add to it, having been the victims of previous slander.

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:
They stated that although they still follow our discussions and debates, they will never again add to it, having been the victims of previous slander.

Woosies.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Idaho Sharpshooter
You have zero knowledge of CB's relationship with my company, the reasons for his exit, or any relevant info. I stayed out of the CB discussion, although NO ONE ON AR could shed light on it as well as I. I had my little war, but have moved on and past it. Worship as you will who you want. But Tracks Across Africa will have a great 2015, following a great 13 and 14. I value ratings as much as the next producer, but to be very honest , I have a big smile each week knowing YOU are not tuning in. Our average viewer IQ skyrockets! Please limit your comments to something you know about sir...there has to be something out there that fits that bill, but Africa, and this CB situation ain't it!

Dave,

I wish you all the best in producing something real hunters can appreciate.

Frankly, I have not been very impressed by some of the shows seen on TV about hunting.

They seem to be produced by a bunch of idiots who have no concept of what hunting is.

I wish you and Aaron all the best in what you are doing.


Outfitters and PH are avoiding AR because they have been slandered??

Why have they been slandered?

Why can't they come out and tell their side of the story, and leave their clients decide what is acceptable or not.


Sounds like the message I got from Zahir Mulla a while back when he was being roasted here.

He asked me why AR allowed all these negative posts to be posted??

I suppose some wants AR to "protect" those who advertise on their sites.

The simple fact is AR does not accept adverts, never receives a penny, from anyone.

Members, who are in the business are freely allowed to post their offers and advertise their services, without having to pay for it.

THEY can stand by their business ethics, or THEY fail by not meeting their obligations to their clients.

Clients are free to choose whoever THEY think will provide them with the best service they are asking.

We have had occasions when a crooked outfit has taken advantage of their clients, and they were exposed here.

Future clients avoid them, and go to those who are honest in their dealings.

We have had clients who have behaved in a manner non of us wishes to see, and outfitters and PH have avoided dealing with them.

Anyone who thinks they have been slandered are free to say so here and clear their reputation.

Saying "I will not post on AR because I am afraid being slandered" is a chicken's way out.

We have many honest outfitters and PHs here who are more than happy to provide the services members wish for.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
This is certainly not a new concept here but a little bit of consideration for manners would be of great benefit to this forum. For example, Frostbit has raised the point now, several times, that when a hunter posts a hunt report, we should realize that he / she is doing so most likely because they have just had the time of their lives. If it happened to involve an RSA lion hunt and the hunter enjoyed the hunt, spending HIS money, why do some feel the need to denigrate the guy just because his hunt isn't your idea of how you'd like to enjoy YOUR safari on YOUR dime? There are plenty of guys who object to shooting a wild lion over BAIT!! If one feels so inclined to rail against RSA lion hunting, why not just start an Anti RSA Lion Thread and go for it there without alienating the guy who just posted his hunt report.

Todd I don't disagree with what you have said in the entirety of your post and in Frostbits following post but I don't think it is always going to be quite so easy to expect fellow members to not so much comment directly on a subject either positively or negatively such as you post above - a hunt report - but to not veer off on a related tangent to the OP.

I take for instance your report on your 2012 tahr, chamois and deer hunt in my country. As usual for your reports, it was an excellent and honest narrative of your hunt backed up with magnificent photos and included appraisal of the country and people you became acquainted with. You were even apologetic that in the end, because of deep snow preventing access, you had to use a chopper against your natural instincts for hunting to get up high enough on the mountain to enable your guide and yourself to carry on and foot hunt for tahr.
Yes it was YOUR hunt, YOUR dime and you enjoyed it (not the damaged finger bit though).

Then we have another of your countryman who also posted a report on his tahr hunt (not sure if on this forum or 'the other') where his chopper chased a bull to the point of exhaustion and cowering in the snow grass and then said hunter jumped out ran over and shot it with a 12G shotgun, then posed happily with his trophy with the chopper hovering in the background of the photo. I recall there were a few very restrained posts and the hunter obviously realised he may have been misled by his guide and the thread quickly went quiet.

Now do we all get great enjoyment from your report and take pleasure that you as the hunter has had a great and productive hunt and been generous enough to share it with us, then out of "consideration of manners" we are also expected to treat the hunter's chopper shoot with the same respect and interest as yours. I think not, and to start another thread to discuss chopper hunting so as not to piss on that hunters parade becomes quite irrelevant. The relevancy is the use made of a chopper on that hunters report, not the use of helicopters in general for hunting therefore any negativity rightfully belongs in the original OP.

That said it should all be civil.

quote:

Sounds like the message I got from Zahir Mulla a while back when he was being roasted here.He asked me why AR allowed all these negative posts to be posted??I suppose some wants AR to "protect" those who advertise on their sites.The simple fact is AR does not accept adverts, never receives a penny, from anyone.Members, who are in the business are freely allowed to post their offers and advertise their services, without having to pay for it.THEY can stand by their business ethics, or THEY fail by not meeting their obligations to their clients.Clients are free to choose whoever THEY think will provide them with the best service they are asking.We have had occasions when a crooked outfit has taken advantage of their clients, and they were exposed here.Future clients avoid them, and go to those who are honest in their dealings.We have had clients who have behaved in a manner non of us wishes to see, and outfitters and PH have avoided dealing with them.Anyone who thinks they have been slandered are free to say so here and clear their reputation.Saying "I will not post on AR because I am afraid being slandered" is a chicken's way out.We have many honest outfitters and PHs here who are more than happy to provide the services members wish for.

They have their reasons and have made their choices, so be it, we move forward. The fact they still follow the site is indicative of the respect they have toward the information posted here, which in 99% of cases is informative and worth being shared.

If an outfit deserves the roasting, as in a particular Tanzanian mentioned above, then by all means turn up the heat, it's fully justifiable and certainly prevents a lot of "would be" clients from being unceremoniously screwed.