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I am going to Tanzania next year with two Buff on license and have a question especilly for you experienced hands or PH's. I am left with the impression that the old proceedure of a soft point first followed by solids is now replaced by just using quality soft points-any comments will be helpful!! Bob Clark | ||
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samwise: That is what the PH I hunt with, John Sharp, recommends. Strictly quality soft points. In my case I used 400gr Swift Aframes. I don't nessesarily agree with him, so I had and used a solid as the coup de grace. Saeed, the Head Honcho here, strictly uses Barnes Xs and they seem to traverse the buff from stem to stern. I think it boils down to a matter of preference with no right and wrong. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Samwise, I can tell you first hand a Barnes X will devistate a buff...Mine did not make 11 yds after a shoulder hit...Didn't have time to bellow before he died... Mike Selous in 23 days | |||
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With the best softs such as Barnes or Fail Safes you have to watch for through and through penetration. That means you may have to pass up some shots when a pass through could mean another wounded buff. Of course it will vary depending on caliber and velocity. 465H&H | |||
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The soft/ solid question is old fashioned thinking for buffalo. Almost all PH's today will tell you to stick with a good premium bonded core or X bullet and just load them alone. The only reason for the soft solid was long ago cup and core bullets would breakup and not get the job done. Today a premium bullet will hold together just fine and they work much better then any solid can. | |||
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PH opinion on this issue remains very divided. A small minority prefer all solids. A majority prefers a premium soft or two followed by solids. Another minority prefers all premium softs. You should follow the advice of your PH. My experience is three buff, all with solids, as requested by the PH. The .458" solids kill very quickly when the shot is good. Much quicker than I would have guessed prior to using them. I will shoot a buff this fall with a soft, just to see if they can die any faster with a .458" soft. I have a very healthy respect for elephants so if I am hunting in elephant country even my light rifle is elephant capable and loaded with solids after one or two softs. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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The perfect compromise:  North Fork cup nose solids that expand. The best of both worlds! And they go a lot deeper than Barnes X. www.northforkbullets.com | |||
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The Woodleigh 570 grain soft nose bullet on the right was fired into the head of a live buff out of a .500 NE. Based on the amount of deformation, I would not recommend it for head shots on bufffalo.  | |||
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Use softs. That's why they were developed about a hundred years ago. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Two Buff will meet their Waterloo at the hands of Barnes X Softs-enough said --thanks to all!!! Bob Clark | |||
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One top quality soft on top followed by a magazine full of solids is the best recipe. Not even the best soft can be counted upon to penetrate an entire buff when the chips are down. Sure, it might, but a solid is more trustworthy. Of course, if one puts the first soft through the top of the heart, the solids won't be needed.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Soft first, then solid. A good technique. When using a soft on buff, use one that is tough. Personally I favor Swift A-frame. I have used Bearclaw, but with these I observe fast expansion and destruction of the lead compartment. With the A-frame the expansion is more controlled and bullet maintains it's weight better. This assures better penetration unless you hit spine. With buff spine, all bets are off on the outcome of a soft point. Definitely use the full metal jacket as the second shot. The reason is that you are going to have a departing shot after you do as much damage as you can with the first shot. That second shot is going to be from some crazy angle, chosen by the bull himself. You have to be able to penetrate him from any angle and still carry on through his entire carcass, taking out all his vitals along the way. You will need maximum penetration. I used A-frame in my .416 for my first shot (broadside). He took it with little response other than his departure. The Barnes solid was next. It entered the left rump and carried through the entire animal, lodging in the right neck. He was down within 50 yards. That solid is the only sure way to handle a difficult second chance. I have no trouble with using Barnes-X as my first round. Do it all the time. It's tougher than the A-frame. These new Triple-shock bullets are even more accurate than A-frame in my gun. I was surprised by that, so I'm taking them to Africa this year for the first time. My gun also likes trophy bonded sledge-hammer. That gives you a real good solid too, with accuracy. One of those penetrated my elephant: Abdominal cavity, diaphragm,Lung, mediastinum, heart, chest wall, and finally lodged in the far shoulder. Now that's penetration. He went 50 yards and fell dead with just one shot. You can see that I am a strong advocate for solids. I never go on hunts without them. That which is not impossible is compulsory | |||
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For Buff I generally use a SWIFT A FRAME first up then WOODLEIGH Solids. Some times in the thick stuff where Jumbo are found at close quarters it is wise to just use Solids. ozhunter | |||
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Gentlemen, The last time I used solids on buffalo was in 1982 - because the only softs I had were Winchester Silver Tips. Ever since, I have used Trophy Bonded Bear Claws, Barnes X and our own Walterhog bullets. And at no time did I feel that I need to use a solid. The Barnes X and the Walterhogs will reach the vitals in a buffalo from any angle. On a number of occasions, I have shot buffalo in the rear end, and the bullets were recovered either from the shoulders or neck.     | |||
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Saaed-thank you Sir--that is good enough advice for me_I think I will take it-330 Gr Barnes X Bullets from my 375 H&H Sako will be just the right medicine!!! Bob Clark | |||
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The recovered Walterhog bullets Saeed displays look alot like the recovered North Fork cup points, as shown in 500 Grains post. For that matter they don't look too different from spent GS Custom or North Fork solids shown in 500 Grains post in other threads. Either way their expanded diameter is minimally over calibre. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Well if anybody here knows what works on bufflao it's Saeed. How many have you killed now? It must be over 100. I've not killed nearly as many. I've always used the soft solid combo. But I must say that I ve had occasion to notice that a 500gr Barnes X pentrates just as deep as most 500gr solids I've used. I've seent the Barnes give full length wise penetration on a buffalo. I think I'll stick with Barnes X (TSX) or North Forks on buffalo in the furture. | |||
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Gentlemen, The last two bullets were recovered from the same buffalo. The one on the left was fired at about 250-280 yards, hitting him in the chest as he was facing us at an agle. The one on the right was fired into him as he was lying down - already dead - from about 5 yards. | |||
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I would go up against buff with a magazine full of Walterhogs any day. From the photos, they appear to be even stouter than the Xs. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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L-R: 570/.505 Gibbs - 570/.505 Gibbs - 450/.458 Lott - .375 H&H  | |||
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Nick, How fast were you driving those 570s from your .505? That is perfect performance. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I would not recommend a Woodleigh soft for head shots on buffalo because with the amount of deformation the bullet suffered, there is a pretty good chance that it would veer off course and not hit the organ which was aimed at. A solid has a better chance of penetrating straight and true.
This is all great stuff, if indeed the soft bullet reaches the brain. But even better is a flat nose (or cup nose) solid that creates a very large wound channel, but also penetrates straight and deep.
Alf, the great gift that the creator gave us all is the ability to learn. Please use your gift.
True, but that action is only useful if it happens inside the brain.
1. See the pics of the cup nose solids above. They do expand. 2. See the pics of FN solids on GS Customs website. They expand when pushed fast enough. 3. Even when flat nose solids do not expand, they create a wide wound channel, which I have seen to tear lung tissue 4 inches to the sides of the actual bullet path. This is caused by the supercavitation bubble which a FN solid forms in tissue. The supercavitation bubble creates nearly as much damage as a sturdy soft, such as a Barnes X. | |||
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That is why I like doubles for the work. One soft and one solid ready to go either way and a solid ready for the elephant if he gets in the way. | |||
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Mike, I found 2,325 fps to be about the limit from both a field shooting and a bullet performance perspective, with those particular Barnes X bullets. The newer Triple shocks may alter that but I have my doubts. The .505 on the left impacted at 50-60 yards and the other at 100 or so yards. I suspect that 2,250 fps may be preferable, all things considered. My gun weighs in at 9.25 lbs. dry. We must keep in mind which bullets were designed for double rifle velocities when using them in our bolt action rifles. The bullet on the left was "taxed" IMHO, considering the range. Same two .505 bullets - Top View:  | |||
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Saeed: I really don't want to argue with very experienced buff shooters like you and others on this thread (and I hasten to say that isn't sarcasm but simply a statement of fact) On my one and only buff hunt I arrived with a 375 H&H "sighted in" with SPs. I learned immediately that my PH wanted me to use solids for a first shot. (Hasty readjustments made across the hood of the Toyota Land Cruiser) My one and only time to shoot at a buff was at about 35 yards (or maybe a little less) as he was starting to turn towards me. A 300 gr. Federal solid (this was 1993) tagged him exactly on the point of the shoulder as he was turning. I can't claim a "one shot" kill because while he staggered off and collapsed about 100 feet away I did use two more shots. Yes, at the PH's suggestion , I did use SPs for those shots. I heard from my PH that the idea in shooting at buff was "Break bones!" -and it always has seemed to me that his idea of using a solid for a first shot must have been based on just how close he planned to let me be to a buff that I would shoot at. Just my thoughts and no argument intended! | |||
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Nick, many thanks for the info. However, I have often wondered whether it's even possible to overstress an X-bullet. It seems to me that they ought to be "velocity proof." I agree that the bullet on the left has been expanded to its limit. How far did it penetrate, do you know? I have driven the 570 grain, .510" diameter X-bullets to 2,500 fps in my .500 A-Square, but only at the target range and I have never been able to recover one from the sand berm behind the target butts. I wonder if, at such a velocity, when fired into a buff, the "worst" that might happen is that the petals might tear off. I say "worst," in quotation marks, because I don't think that would be so bad in any case. It seems to me that the petals would become secondary projectiles and the shank of the bullet would keep on penetrating like a solid. From Saeed's photos, it would seem that his Walterhogs behave that way. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Mike - The 50 yard pill entered the chest just forward of the onside shoulder, shattering the offside shoulder and lodging under the skin but almost through (the bullet was visable). This was the first time I could not discern the bottom of the expansion hole while retaining all 4 petals, which makes me wonder what may have resulted had the range been less. While I've had success with X bullets, even with the loss of all 4 petals, I feel that .50 caliber introduces other variables, in that individual petals are extra heavy and strong ... far less likely to break off at usable velocities. This, along with the fact that the bullets used were .510"/.500 N.E. bullets (drawn down to .506) leads me to conclude that the velocity was borderline high for these particular bullets. In other words, I'd rather the 100 yard result at 50, feeling the bullet would be better suited for close in work. Did I explain that right? I do wonder if even 2,500 MV would produce the secondary projectiles we so often see with lesser caliber X bullets on squarely struck bone. In any case, having a few hundred 570 XLC's to shoot up before I get into newer developments, I plan to try 2,250 fps next time out.  | |||
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-- Saeed, our moderator and host. Saeed, I think you shoot wadcutter "solids" all the time!  Only 9 of the 42 copper HP bullets retained one or more X petals. (20%). Alf, Dans point is that if the relatively "soft" woodleigh which usually retains about 70% weight and does loose alot of frontal area, misses the brain, it is unlikely to penetrate deeply enough to hit spine, large vessels over heart or do any other damage. That is why Saeed likes the Barnes X and monolithic HP's. Also, even a barely supersonic 123 grain FMJ 9mm pistol or submachinegun bullet will burst the calvarium on man or even up to a horse. Very common to get explosive type wounds with any supersonic FMJ. . . if it actually hits the brain and is not a near miss on a head (face, cheek, or eye) shot. As you know, I do prefer bonded soft points, but ones with a thick ductile pure copper jacket. (Bitterroot, North Fork, original TBBC, Kodiak, Swift, TB Speer, Rhino, Woodleigh, Hornady Interbond, Nosler Accubond, in that order). About the time you get past the Swift I would certainly consider one of Saeed's wadcutter solids, or a NF CP or FN instead of one of the bonded varmit bullets (with gilding metal jacket)for a buffalo!  Pictured L to RT; 458 caliber 450 grain Barnes X, 450 grain North Fork, 450 grain Swift, 450 grain Kodiak. I do agree w Alf that a near miss w a premium soft is going to do alot more damage than a FMJ, and you may throw some bone splinters into the brain. But I would much rather have a FN or CP solid than the Woodleigh Dan recovered! For what its worth, my PH Myles McCallum said the Barnes X did not penetrate any further than a Swift or TBBC. He's seen alot of them all every season. He shoots Woodleigh solids in his Rigby but is not anti premium bullet and liked TBBC and Swift. The only Woodleigh soft he would recommend was that for the 416. Andy | |||
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I found it interesting that Ian Nyshens in his book "Months of the Sun" stated that he never felt comfortable when facing a charging buffalo. Never that is until he switched to soft nose instaed of solids for head shots on charging buff. Comments? 465H&H | |||
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Gentlemen, Our Walterhog bullets have a hollo point, The bullet on the left in the first photo is an unfired bullet. On a charging buffalo one MUST hit the brain or spine, anywhere else is not good enough. If you don't do that old mbogo is going to have enough life left in him to even the score. The best part, of course, is to make sure your first shot is lethal, so he won't have the energy to come after you. | |||
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I shot a buff two weeks ago with a Hornady Interbond from the .458 Lott. Right on the point of the shoulder as he quartered toward me. He only went about 80 yards, but the bullet was not recovered except for the fragments of the jacket. For me, I'm sticking with the Barnes X as a soft followed by the Barnes solids. | |||
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On hard structures, like a head shot, I would expect a Walterhog bullet to shed its petals on the bone and proceed as a cylindrical solid. Thus the damage that the expansion does is on soft flesh and is largely immaterial (with regard to a head shot). The damage it does to the brain would thus be very similar to the damage done to the brain by a FN solid. Don't get me wrong - I think the Walterhog bullet is an excellent design because it achieves what I am seeking: a wide and deep wound channel formed by a supercavitation bubble. And of course on a broadside lung shot, the expansion will cause excellent tissue disruption and blood loss. So Alf, you praise the Walterhog bullet for buff brain shots, but you diss FN solids, yet they will do the same thing to a brain.  | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Top Quality Soft Points vrs Solids for Buffalo
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