I just got finished watching Boddington on Buffalo and was amazed by how many .375 Swift A-Frames those soaked up. One appeared to require 4 or 5 and another needed quite a bit as well. I currently own a Ruger M77 RSM in .375 H&H and I was alarmed when they explained that they've seen a Buff take as many as 21 shots to put down. I think I might start looking at a Heavier rifle such as a .458 Lott or .450 Rigby, perhaps a .470 NE>

Guy 458, what you saw is a real world example of what CAN happen. This is especially true if the first shot is not perfectly placed and/or the buff has gotten his adrenalin up. I, as have many on this forum, dropped buff in their tracks with a single shot. That said, neither of these situations can be counted on. That is what makes hunting buffalo such a kick!

Considering your statement about a larger caliber, it is my opinion that when hit with the .40+ calibers there is a noticeable difference in reaction in how the animal(buffalo) reacts upon receiving the bullet. The conventional wisdom, based on many well known authors and their publications as well as the opinions of many PHs is: one should use the largest caliber that one can shoot ACCURATELY. I would like to reiterate the usual admonition that bullet placement is more important than all of the above.

Geronimo

Guy458

Geronimo has it right. You should fully expect your buffalo to take multiple shots. The first buffalo I shot I hit in mid flight going away in the right rear hip. In a couple of minutes we heard a death bellow and found the buff dead 80 yards away. Easy as pie! The 500 gr solid had travelled the whole length of his body. Next buffalo now that I was a seasoned Bwana really surprised me when it took 5 and yes the first was a killing shot and the 3rd took 7 with the first bullet centering the shoulder. I've shot a a handful of buffalo since but I never expect that first bullet to do the whole job. It could but don't expect it.

Your 375 is plenty of gun. Just put a big soft point in the boiler room to start with and you'll be in great shape.

Mark

Thanks - for the response - I guess thats why his other Rifle was a .470 NE Double. By the way does anyone hear have any experience with the Heym Square Bride Mauser Rifle as featured on their website and shown for Sale in Gunsamerica? They now appear to chamber the .450 Rigby and the .458 Lott.

quote:

Originally posted by Guy458:
Thanks - for the response - I guess thats why his other Rifle was a .470 NE Double. By the way does anyone hear have any experience with the Heym Square Bride Mauser Rifle as featured on their website and shown for Sale in Gunsamerica? They now appear to chamber the .450 Rigby and the .458 Lott.

There is a member here called New Guy; he is a Heym distributer and should be able to answer any questions.

Alf wrote:

"Way before all of this new age AR ballistics we all used standard off the shelf Softs and RN FMJ's and you know what? if you go with what is posted here on AR you would swear we never dropped and killed a single animal ?

"It amazes me even more that anyone before AR actually got anything killed at all with their puny choices in rifle and caliber?"

Alf,

There is nothing "New Age" about bonded soft points.

They have been available to handloaders since 1965. I have been using them since 1978.

Andy

PS An "autopsy" is conducted on a human being, a necropsy on an animal.

ALF
can I safely conclude from what you´ve said,that woodleigh softs would be ok for follow-up shots on buff? I´ve traded my 375 for a 35 whelen for the lighter stuff,and traded my 458 lott for a 425 westley richards (I got double vision with the lott and could´nt practice enough) I have´nt used the 425 on buff yet. Reading this thread,I dont know if I should ask GS to make up something or stick with woodleigh softs or go the one soft the rest solid route.Make it easy for me,I´m used to Barnes x in 375 and 458.Maybe I should´nt have changed,but I´m a sentimental prick. Thanks....whimper....whine...

Just bonding the lead core to a 95-5 (gilding metal) or 90-10 (Woodleigh) jacket is no guarantee of success.

Pictured is disapointing performance from the 458 caliber A-Square Dead Tough, 500 grain Woodleigh Protected Point, and Hornady Interbond.



The Woodleigh PP is the best of this poor lot but clearly over expanded.

Andy

I have to agree with 500gns-the 570 gn Woodleigh's out of a 500 Nitro are on the soft side for anything other than a side on chest shot.They will work perfectly in that setting but if you hit shoulder they flatten out and stop penetrating.The solids of that diameter and weight seem to work extremely well-serious penetration-but watch for overpenetration

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:
Just bonding the lead core to a 95-5 (gilding metal) or 90-10 (Woodleigh) jacket is no guarantee of success.

Pictured is disapointing performance from the 458 caliber A-Square Dead Tough, 500 grain Woodleigh Protected Point, and Hornady Interbond.



The Woodleigh PP is the best of this poor lot but clearly over expanded.

Andy

Looks likr the 458 Woodleigh PP would make an excellent lion load in the 458 Win.

465H&H

I must be missing something. I'd be happy with any of those bullets on lion.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
I must be missing something. I'd be happy with any of those bullets on lion.

But the thread is about buffalo!

Lion is a different thread.

As I said, I must be missing something. But I sure would use them on lion.

Gentlemen,

The 450 grain North Fork retains as much weight as the 500 grain Woodleigh.

The 400 grain North Fork retains 100 grains more than the 465 grain A-Square or 500 grain Hornady Interbond.

The A-Square barely expanded. It fractured actually.

The Protected Point Woodleigh is a decent bullet but controls expansion by reducing the diameter of the meplat rather than by using a tapered jacket or soft pure copper jacket.

It had substantially delayed expansion compared to the RN Woodleigh, or North Forks. I dont know if this is a good thing for lion or not.

If for some reason I could not buy 400 or 450 grain North Forks, 450 or 500 grain Kodiaks, or 500 grain Swifts, I would certainly use this bullet in my 450 Dakota.

Andy

/

Alf,

You write English so well, I did not know you were of Afrikaans rather than English extraction.

In US English Medical Doctors perform autopsies while Doctors of Veterinary medicine perform necropsy.

It is a common mistake even among native English speakers.

I define a "premium" bullet as, "One which withstands higher than normal impact velocity with less than normal Sectional Density."

The Woodleigh would benefit from at least a 5 degree taper inside the jacket like the Alaska Bullet Works Kodiak uses. A bit more taper would be better still, as would a copper alloy with less zinc.

Andy