Are your thoughts changed Because of the original lion issue and Zim wanting extradition ? What about naming a suspect and providing his home address?

Is this all intentional?

If they continue this circus and follow through with extradition then I am done. Sorry for all the fine Zim operators. But how many actually have silent partners under BEE?

Jeff

Certainly has become a scary prospect-

The fluidity of the land seizure situation-
The vagaries of permits-- and subsequent enforcements-
The SDN issues-
etc
etc

I am going soon. However , depending on what happens, it might be my last trip to my favorite country.

I have spoken to several operators all of which think the client is innocent. If he is innocent and has had to endure all of this , well..........

This debacle is clearly a very well orchestrated effort by the anti-hunting crowd to show hunters in bad light and ultimately shut down lion hunting followed by all hunting. Whether the hunt was illegally conducted or not I do not care to speculate, and of course that is the BIG question. What seems to be coming across is that a lion called "Cecil" was not that well known in Zimbabwe.

A very clever angle by the anti-hunters to humanize a lion and play it up no end. I just read that Cecil's brother is looking after his children today, has anyone ever heard of such bull shit.


This mass hysteria is sort of similar of the Ebola scare we saw last year. An "American" / Western media story. Even many on AR who should have known better got sucked in to the BS at the time. I had all my clients ask me if it was safe to go which was perfectly natural and after checking with my outfitters in Burkina and Cameroon who assured me that the sun was shining and the birds were singing I told them it was totally safe to go. All of them went and came home without any issue whatsoever.

Just more BS from our lousy media and rabid anti hunting crowd and ill informed population. Its a sad situation.........

No.

My favorite country as well. Wonderful people, all! Been going the last 10 consecutive years. Guess I picked a good year for Australia. I am optimistically looking forward to many future trips. My sincere condolences to all of the Rhodesians for this most unfortunate hardship.

I am done with Zim
Can anyone provide an email address to express our outrage. To ruin hunters careers and trial by Internet is really outrageous.

Until they find a new target for their angst.

Does mean that operators need to keep things dead quite (not connected to this business, but some play it lose with the photos and names during the conventions and such... wouldn't put it past the crazies to start sending in "spies" to SCI and/ or DSC).

Zim is a great country, and this will be a mega blow to a big part of their $$$ inflows

I think it will be a very hard season for the safari companies, their dependents, and the Parks dept.

I wonder whether some in Govt are not looking at this as an oppy to get rid of the remaining whites. Without a livelihood a lot of them will have to make the leap. The fact that they are shooting themselves in the foot does not matter. In Africa, idealogy trumps material well-being. If so then it could be the end.

However it could go the other way if fate finally plays the trump card. But then again, look at Haiti. The place never recovered from the loss of colonial influence and probably never will, no matter how many times the Clintons do a fly-over.

I have one trip to go to Zim either this year or next.

If personal information and other stuff on a hunting license is disclosed or if a US hunter extradition is sought I am done.

Zim govt has already been predatory in charging hunters $5K for a buff in govt fees. They have tried to squeeze dg hunting to the financial max and then to try to do this whole legal liability crap - its just not worth it.

There is a lot of stuff that goes on in Zim behind the scenes - its something a lot of us turn a blind eye too knowing good people are operating in Uncle Bob paradise. But if the Zim government thinks they can have it both ways - squeeze hunters financially and them screw them legally - they can go pound sand.

Lets not make zim hunting politics the make all of hunting globally. What Uncle Bob goes with elephants or lions or USFW and anti hunting reaction to them is irrelevant to 99.99% of hunters. Its going to be a long time before PETA comes and stops hunting deer hunting in TX or ducks in LA. Nothing really major happen to anyone when India stop hunting - Zim is about that important to me.

The bigger issues is anti hunting guys have gotten really smart at playing social media. They have figured out that doctors and dentist pictured with dead african animals does not work well professionally.


Mike

Mike,

Unfortunately the danger is within our shores. In Maine HSUS funded referendum almost shut down bear baiting in Maine this year which would have effectively killed the outfitters business. Second time they tried it and only a stiff defense countered it with a shaky outcome. Lawsuits are next in their effort I've heard

I avoid Zimbabwe and this recent debacle supports my position.

quote:

Originally posted by vvreddy:
Mike,

Unfortunately the danger is within our shores. In Maine HSUS funded referendum almost shut down bear baiting in Maine this year which would have effectively killed the outfitters business. Second time they tried it and only a stiff defense countered it with a shaky outcome. Lawsuits are next in their effort I've heard

I rather go spend hunter political capital and political $$ fighting in the US than on a wasted country and a criminal politician like Uncle Bob.

So on the elephant hunting ban we had everyone go to DC to say please trust National Parks and Uncle Bob government make believe data and lets us import elephant trophies. Now you have the same government wanting to extradite a US citizen for violating Zim laws. We are dealing with a criminal government - I make a tough decision in hunting there of supporting good people and wildlife over a criminal system that at the end of the day collects some of my hunting dollars. But do I think it is a joke to spend political $$ and political capital that can be used in the US instead of trying to defend and support Zim.

Every time you help Uncle Bob he will figure a way to f@ck you over. The whole ZIm government approach to hunting is a joke. They f*ck good people in the Save, they have rampant corruption and wildlife gets decimated. Same time they view hunters as walking dollar signs. Its just depressing cause I really like to go to Zim and hunt or more than that just hang out in the Save. But I can go to Botswana or Namibia or Zambia or West Africa instead.

Mike

Nah, it's not done. Too much money at stake for the regime over there. Bob's folks see a short term payday now for this bleeding heart money, and they'll turn their attention right back to us hunters when that's over.

Anybody want to wager a friendly beer bet with me that this whole extradition nonsense never materializes? If I'm wrong we can settle up at DSC in January.

That being said, I don't care what animal they light up the Empire State Building with - I will still hunt Zim and I will still support my good friends and PH's.

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
This debacle is clearly a very well orchestrated effort by the anti-hunting crowd to show hunters in bad light and ultimately shut down lion hunting followed by all hunting. Whether the hunt was illegally conducted or not I do not care to speculate, and of course that is the BIG question. What seems to be coming across is that a lion called "Cecil" was not that well known in Zimbabwe.

A very clever angle by the anti-hunters to humanize a lion and play it up no end. I just read that Cecil's brother is looking after his children today, has anyone ever heard of such bull shit.


This mass hysteria is sort of similar of the Ebola scare we saw last year. An "American" / Western media story. Even many on AR who should have known better got sucked in to the BS at the time. I had all my clients ask me if it was safe to go which was perfectly natural and after checking with my outfitters in Burkina and Cameroon who assured me that the sun was shining and the birds were singing I told them it was totally safe to go. All of them went and came home without any issue whatsoever.

Just more BS from our lousy media and rabid anti hunting crowd and ill informed population. Its a sad situation.........

https://www.facebook.com/group...93360091693/?fref=nf

The largest source of pro Cecil information I get. In not the anti hunting crowd as much as the people in the photo safari business.

Now there are hunting guys having photo safari business - its Zim nothing is clear cut.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by T.J.:
Nah, it's not done. Too much money at stake for the regime over there. Bob's folks see a short term payday now for this bleeding heart money, and they'll turn their attention right back to us hunters when that's over.

Anybody want to wager a friendly beer bet with me that this whole extradition nonsense never materializes? If I'm wrong we can settle up at DSC in January.

That being said, I don't care what animal they light up the Empire State Building with - I will still hunt Zim and I will still support my good friends and PH's.

True but it shows you are dealing with Uncle Bob who has zero time consistency in any policy.

He will sell hunters down stream to pick up a quick $10 mil in donations.

And we as Zim hunters are like some people in abusive relationship who keep going back for a beating.

Mike

Bob's dead in few years.....someone like him, in his inner circle will take over. Money brings in too much sanctuary for his cronies with hunting. More challenges for PH's, but at the end of the day..Zim will be around for a long time.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

And we as Zim hunters are like some people in abusive relationship who keep going back for a beating.

Truer words never spoken. I can't stop!

Zim is officially off my list.

I like Zim.I hope to go back.Zim is a hunting country and therefore a friend of mine.

This whole fiasco has been orchestrated by the antis, and I hope it does not affected anyone making a negative decision to go and hunt in Zimbabwe, or anywhere else.


And why would the US extradite the hunter to Zimbabwe, while they have refused to extradite others who have committed much worse crimes??

People hunting in Zimbabwe should be very careful who they do hunt with - that goes to other countries too.

Far too many cowboys are jumping into this business.

I went to Zim in 2008, with CM Safaris. I would be okay to go again with them. Not sure about anybody I did not know as well...

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
This whole fiasco has been orchestrated by the antis, and I hope it does not affected anyone making a negative decision to go and hunt in Zimbabwe, or anywhere else.


And why would the US extradite the hunter to Zimbabwe, while they have refused to extradite others who have committed much worse crimes??

People hunting in Zimbabwe should be very careful who they do hunt with - that goes to other countries too.

Far too many cowboys are jumping into this business.

I don't think the us even under president obama extradite the dentist to Zim.

The troubling issues become

(1) zim playing the extradite card and fanning the flames of cecil

(2) zim disclosing hunter information to the public - this is info on hunting license ect.

(3) fear that zim hunting industry which has been very client friendly - get us professionally around the mess that is zim - cannot do so going forward. Hunters gets cocooned from Zim legal police gov't - what happens if we are not.

Mike

So are we throwing in all the proven operators over the cliff due to this. Good plan?! Of course Zim is not done as a hunting destination. Hunting is the hope for the game, and hunting dollars are the reason.
Please remember, the honest operators are outraged as well, and in the best position to make a statement AND a difference!

I have hunted Zim several times and agree with supporting the PH/Outfitters there. However I don't think the honest operators being outraged are in much of a position to express and make a difference with Uncle Bob's group. They are at the mercy of the next plan he has up his sleeve. He pays attention or listens to no one but his corrupt cronies and there ideas of stealing money from any and everybody they can. Plain and simple, has been that way for years. To think differently is a pie in the sky pipe dream.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
R8 Blaser

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
So are we throwing in all the proven operators over the cliff due to this. Good plan?! Of course Zim is not done as a hunting destination. Hunting is the hope for the game, and hunting dollars are the reason.
Please remember, the honest operators are outraged as well, and in the best position to make a statement AND a difference!

This is not the only illegal incident in Zimbabwe wherein the American hunter is put in serious jeopardy...please read.

HARARE, Zimbabwe — Zimbabwe has accused a 2nd hunter - a Pennsylvania doctor - of illegally killing a lion in April, as it seeks to extradite a Minnesota dentist who killed a well-known lion named Cecil in July.

Jan Casimir Seski of Murrysville, Pennsylvania, shot the lion with a bow and arrow near Hwange National Park, without approval and on land where it was not allowed, said Zimbabwe's National Parks and Wildlife Management Authority.

Landowner Headman Sibanda was arrested and is assisting police, it said.

Seski, a gynecological oncologist who directs the Center for Bloodless Medicine and Surgery at Allegheny General Hospital in Pittsburgh, is a big-game hunter according to safari outfitters and bow-hunting sites. Kill shots on the sites identify "Dr. Jan Seski" as the man standing next to slain animals including elephants, a hippo, an ostrich and antelopes such as an impala, a kudu, and a nyala.

Seski did not respond to messages left by The Associated Press at his home and with an answering service for his medical practice. The AP also called and knocked on the door at Seski's house, which is set back among some woods outside Pittsburgh.

Zimbabwe's wildlife minister says extradition is being sought for Walter Palmer, the American dentist who killed a Cecil. (Paula French via AP)

Road signs are placed on the edge of the road leading to the home of Dr. Jan Casimir Seski in Murrysville, Pa., on Sunday, Aug. 2, 2015.

Zimbabwe's National Parks and Wildlife Management Authority accused Seski of illegally killing a lion with a bow and arrow in April near Zimbabwe's Hwange National Park, without approval, on land where it was not allowed.

Zimbabwe's wildlife authority has suspended the hunting of lions, leopards and elephants in the Hwange area, and said Saturday that bow and arrow hunts can be approved only by the head of the wildlife authority.

Two other illegal lion hunts also were recorded last year in Zimbabwe, said Geoffrey Matipano, conservation director for the wildlife authority. He did not provide details on those cases.

Zimbabwe National Parks spokeswoman Caroline Washaya Moyo said Seski provided his name and other identifying information for a government database when he came for the hunt.

"When hunters come into the country they fill a document stating their personal details, the amount they have paid for the hunt, the number of animals to be hunted, the species to be hunted and the area and period where that hunt is supposed to take place," she said. "The American conducted his hunt in an area where lion hunting is outlawed. The landowner who helped him with the hunt also did not have a have a quota for lion hunting."

Meanwhile, Zimbabwean authorities have said they will seek the extradition of Minnesota dentist Walter James Palmer, alleging he lacked authorization to kill "Cecil." The lion was lured out of Hwange park, wounded with a bow and arrow and then tracked down and shot, conservationists said.

Palmer said he relied on professional guides to ensure his hunt was legal. Two Zimbabwean citizens were arrested and face charges.

An image on the Melorani Safaris Facebook page, since taken down, showed Seski posing with the body of a small antelope in 2012, with a caption saying it was killed two days after he shot it with an arrow. Other captions described how his arrows penetrated organs and split bones.

"This Zimbabwe elephant is the sixth African elephant shot by Dr. Jan Seski," Alaska Bowhunting Supply claims in a caption dated September 2014, below a picture of the doctor posing above the dead beast's trunk and tusks.

"The arrow was shot quartering into the elephant, penetrated a rib and one lung, lacerated the heart and liver, and was recovered in the gut. The elephant went a short distance and died. With results like this, no wonder Jan is a firm supporter of our Ultra-Magnum Arrow System."

Alaska Bowhunting Supply didn't immediately respond Sunday to a request for comment, and it wasn't clear how the hunting supply company learned such details about the hunt.

Images of the doctor wearing camouflage and holding high-powered bows match those on Seski's website, where he wears a suit or hospital scrubs. His address and other identifying information given by authorities in Zimbabwe matches those of U.S. medical authorities.

A handful of Seski's neighbors said he mostly keeps to himself and that he'd been buying up the land around his property. Ernest Hahn said Seski put up no-trespassing signs, breaking the rural area's tradition of people feeling free to cross property lines to hunt.

Hahn said Seski can be "quirky," walking around wearing a low-slung pistol "like a gunslinger," for example, but he appreciates that his neighbor is protecting land from development.

"It seemed to me everything he does is aboveboard," Hahn said. "I've never seen him done anything illegal or unsportsmanlike at all."

Seski seemed like a "perfect gentleman" to Stewart Dorrington, who operates Melorani Safaris and owns a game reserve in neighboring South Africa where Seski hunted in 2012.

"He was a great guy," Dorrington said. "Everything he did was perfectly legal and aboveboard and a great help to our conservation efforts."

Dorrington said he converted his cattle ranch into a game reserve in the 1980s. He said funds from trophy hunting of antelope are essential to conserving wildlife.

Dorrington said he received an abusive phone call Sunday; his Facebook page was later closed from view after people began posting threatening comments.

NOTE THIS!!

In Washington, U.S. Sen. Robert Menendez, D-N.J., announced the "Conserving Ecosystems by Ceasing the Importation of Large (CECIL) Animal Trophies Act," which would expand import bans to species proposed for listing as threatened or endangered, as well as those already listed as endangered.

"The logic is that if you keep killing them, they will become endangered," Menendez spokesman Steven Sandberg said Sunday.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
So are we throwing in all the proven operators over the cliff due to this. Good plan?! Of course Zim is not done as a hunting destination. Hunting is the hope for the game, and hunting dollars are the reason.
Please remember, the honest operators are outraged as well, and in the best position to make a statement AND a difference!

Agree but we as hunters have supported zim as uncle bob has made a disaster of the country. Now it looks like govt of zim turning on hunters. Zim politicians and uncle bob are just irrational criminal short term opportunistic actors.

It's time the good guys in zim who have access to uncle bob and his cronies convey the reality - can't threaten high dollar price hunters with at introduction to Zim legal system. The access comes from Uncle bob and his cronies having his fat fingers in all financial aspects of the hunt.

The message needs to be can't have it both ways - can't take money from hunters at the same time threaten them.

Also if they look at global commodities they should have a good idea we are in a world of natural resource pain for next 5 years. It's time to stop beating up on hunters.

Mike

So now we go from $50 extortion at the airport because you cannot account for your ammunition expended, to $50,000 extortion when there is some real or manufactured discrepancy on your TR2? Hey, that's just like the good old days when they added a zero to the currency with the passage of every week.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I have one trip to go to Zim either this year or next.

If personal information and other stuff on a hunting license is disclosed or if a US hunter extradition is sought I am done.

Zim govt has already been predatory in charging hunters $5K for a buff in govt fees. They have tried to squeeze dg hunting to the financial max and then to try to do this whole legal liability crap - its just not worth it.

There is a lot of stuff that goes on in Zim behind the scenes - its something a lot of us turn a blind eye too knowing good people are operating in Uncle Bob paradise. But if the Zim government thinks they can have it both ways - squeeze hunters financially and them screw them legally - they can go pound sand.

Lets not make zim hunting politics the make all of hunting globally. What Uncle Bob goes with elephants or lions or USFW and anti hunting reaction to them is irrelevant to 99.99% of hunters. Its going to be a long time before PETA comes and stops hunting deer hunting in TX or ducks in LA. Nothing really major happen to anyone when India stop hunting - Zim is about that important to me.

The bigger issues is anti hunting guys have gotten really smart at playing social media. They have figured out that doctors and dentist pictured with dead african animals does not work well professionally.

***

Mike, with all due respect, are you going to hunt Zimbabwe either this year or next? If so, aren't you inadvertently supporting Uncle Bob's regime despite your ongoing anti-Zimbabwe diatribe? Just curious.

Cecil has been a topic in our house since the news broke.

Between Church and three get-togethers with friends this weekend, I have explained the situation surrounding Cecil, as I understand it, ad nauseam.

Last night while watching the local news and seeing the photograph and address of the second Dr. posted on the TV screen, my wife said, "I think you are through hunting in Zimbabwe". I couldn't argue her point.

You don't have to do anything illegal to have people protesting outside your business and home in these days of internet witch trials.

While my business is not as sensitive to an internet jury as these two doctors, I still don't care to subject my employees and customers to harassment.

My family certainly means too much to me to want them to be harassed for having a husband and father who has hunted in Zimbabwe.

The Dr. Palmer situation is one thing. The Zim government coming out and publishing a name and address of the second doctor that hunted in April is completely different. If he poached and knew it, then have a trial and throw the book at him. If his PH and the landowner did something wrong that he had no knowledge of then why "out" him to the media. Will the next American outed have hunted in 2014? What about 2011? How far are they going to go back.

I probably won't be hunting Zimbabwe in 2016. In fact, another PG hunt is looking better and better as I type this.


My heart goes out to the "good guys" in Zimbabwe who are doing everything right. Since April 4, 2014 it has been a difficult time for them. I don't see it getting any better until 2017 at a minimum. Their government is doing their industry, economy and wildlife no favors.

quote:

Originally posted by Cajun1956:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I have one trip to go to Zim either this year or next.

If personal information and other stuff on a hunting license is disclosed or if a US hunter extradition is sought I am done.

Zim govt has already been predatory in charging hunters $5K for a buff in govt fees. They have tried to squeeze dg hunting to the financial max and then to try to do this whole legal liability crap - its just not worth it.

There is a lot of stuff that goes on in Zim behind the scenes - its something a lot of us turn a blind eye too knowing good people are operating in Uncle Bob paradise. But if the Zim government thinks they can have it both ways - squeeze hunters financially and them screw them legally - they can go pound sand.

Lets not make zim hunting politics the make all of hunting globally. What Uncle Bob goes with elephants or lions or USFW and anti hunting reaction to them is irrelevant to 99.99% of hunters. Its going to be a long time before PETA comes and stops hunting deer hunting in TX or ducks in LA. Nothing really major happen to anyone when India stop hunting - Zim is about that important to me.

The bigger issues is anti hunting guys have gotten really smart at playing social media. They have figured out that doctors and dentist pictured with dead african animals does not work well professionally.

***

Mike, with all due respect, are you going to hunt Zimbabwe either this year or next? If so, aren't you inadvertently supporting Uncle Bob's regime despite your ongoing anti-Zimbabwe diatribe? Just curious.

I support the people I hunt with in Zimbabwe - I admit there is a trade off between some money eventually ending up in uncle bob pocket. The devils tax the way I look at it.

The diatribe is a statement of reality

I am not seeking a us hunter be extradited, I am not disclosing us hunter information of a hunting license and I am not fanning the flames of dead cecil. That is all being done by the government of zimbabwe. Those are the facts. Is it anti Zimbabwe and anti hunting - yes but you should bring that up with uncle bob. I am just going to go hang out with friends in the Save if that involves using a borrowed gun or not bringing back trophies - its fine with me. And turning my hunting into a chill in Save trip for same dollars is also fine with me. So I will try and do the best to help my friends in zim and try and give as little money to uncle bob.

Mike

Zimbabwe has been off my list for awhile. The last straw was when I was issued an illegal permit for elephant. When you can hold your permit in your hand and its still not worth the paper it was written on what chance do you have? I'm just glad that after giving our statements, none of the heads that rolled was my own. Going back now just to see how long their memories are would be dumb.

quote:

NOTE THIS!!

In Washington, U.S. Sen. Robert Menendez, D-N.J., announced the "Conserving Ecosystems by Ceasing the Importation of Large (CECIL) Animal Trophies Act," which would expand import bans to species proposed for listing as threatened or endangered, as well as those already listed as endangered.

"The logic is that if you keep killing them, they will become endangered," Menendez spokesman Steven Sandberg said Sunday.

Guys,

This CRAP from Mugabe and his anti-white racist and corrupt government will not only affect Zimbabwe hunting, but all hunting in Africa.

We should send a very strong message that American hunters do not appreciate this treatment and boycott Zimbabwe.

If we succeed, other African countries will get the message and not throw us under the bus, if it's politically expedient should something go wrong.

This is some serious shit go'in on in Zimbabwe.

Here's evidence that it's not the American hunter's fault, but rather an over zealous corrupt government...please read.

"HARARE, Zimbabwe — A Zimbabwean safari operator accused of facilitating an illegal lion hunt for an American citizen in April denies the bow and arrow kill was unlawful and says his client acted in "good faith."

Landowner Headman Sibanda said Monday in a telephone interview with The Associated Press that his client, Jan Casimir Seski of Murrysville, Pennsylvania, didn't break any law during his Zimbabwean hunt.

Sibanda says the relevant paperwork was in place for Seski's hunt.

The Zimbabwe National Parks and Wildlife Management Authority alleged Sunday that Seski was involved in an illegal hunt.

Zimbabwean officials say they are seeking the extradition of another American, James Walter Palmer, for killing a well-known lion named Cecil in an early July hunt that was allegedly illegal."

It is hard to understand what is going on. First off , these two landowners are well connected in ZANU-PF. How is it that this is happening ?

If we boycott Zim, all quality operators will be finished.

What do they gain by seeking extradition?

What do they gain by publishing addresses?

What do they gain by attacking these clients?

What is the end plan?


Is it to get rid of the remaining whites in the country? Is it to get rid of foreign clients so the Chinese can run wild? Or is it something else ?

Larry,

Good questions, but are you giving them too much credit to think of a big picture.

Could the questions be:

Are they publicity whores too?

Are they to ignorant to understand the consequences of their actions?


TIA

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
It is hard to understand what is going on. First off , these two landowners are well connected in ZANU-PF. How is it that this is happening ?

If we boycott Zim, all quality operators will be finished.

What do they gain by seeking extradition?

What do they gain by publishing addresses?

What do they gain by attacking these clients?

What is the end plan?


Is it to get rid of the remaining whites in the country? Is it to get rid of foreign clients so the Chinese can run wild? Or is it something else ?

Larry busting your butt to help those that want help is one thing, but this is something else. If the Zimbo's don't want us, I am not going to fight to be there. If it were a woman it would be called stalking. Just sayin...

Maybe this is a push to attract the Euro-trash bunny hugger money that flowed into Kenya and Botswana with all of this publicity and throwing hunters under the bus. Regardless if extradition happens, I am through as a matter of principle.

Jeff

If they extradite, that is different.

We would have issues with our government as well.

The line for me is when they start publishing the names and addresses of hunters they "think" might have done something wrong. That should be kept private until the investigation is over at the very least. I'll take my money to other places that don't put on public witch hunts for sportsman that pay good money helping fund their wildlife.