I am going to hunt buffalo and tuskless this summer and I can not decide which rifle to take: 375 H&H or 416 Rigby?

I have hunted a lot with 375 in Russia and once in Tanzania. And I was completely satisfied. But it was PG hunting (except 2 buffs which took more than 3 bullets each). Now it is going to be a dangerous game hunting.

Should I take more powerful 416 or old good 375 will be enough?

What do you think?

375 is plenty good enough and has been for over 100 years.

However, the difference between a 375 and a 416 is considerable.

If you shoot the 416 as well as the 375, I'd take the bigger gun every time.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
375 is plenty good enough and has been for over 100 years.

However, the difference between a 375 and a 416 is considerable.

If you shoot the 416 as well as the 375, I'd take the bigger gun every time.

+1

What has been stated here is true, there is a considerable difference between the two. However, if you want to split the difference somewhat, go with the heavier than caliber 350 grain bullets for the .375. I used 350 Woodleighs for both elephant and buffalo and that work very well. I think Northfork may make 350's as well. Good luck.

I feel OK to shoot big bores. I even used to use DR in .500 NE for few years. But other things being equal of course 375 is more comfortable.

We've got "Norma African PH" cartridges with 350 gr (2300 f/s) Woodleigh SN and FMJ. They should be a good choice.

Take the 416. If something goes wrong on your elephant, you'll be glad you have it.

What safari-lawyer said.

I'd say whatever youRe more comfy with, with consideration of other comments

My 375 in spite of being a custom built rifle just didn't shoot the best. But I hesitated to go to the 416 until I saw a still new in box Winchester Model 70 Safari Express that was the older New Haven built M70s . I also hesitated as the recoil of the Sako 338 I had was beating on me pretty good too.

I got the 416 and took it out and fired it . What happened here ? It wasn't bad at all . It was darn good in fact. Better than the 338 in recoil and more accurate than the 375 . I am sure that the stock fit had something to do with the recoil but it just works.

Both of those rifles are gone and the 416 takes care of any heavy chores I need with the 400 grain bullets . With the new and lighter Barnes bullets that I have never tried yet it can reach out there some too . I am quite well pleased at how the 416 worked out for me .

Above all, whichever you shoot best.
That being said, anything you are carrying in a cow elephant herd will feel like a matchstick. If you shoot it well, it's a no-brainer. The 416.
I love my 375, but on ele, well, it's adequate.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
375 is plenty good enough and has been for over 100 years.

However, the difference between a 375 and a 416 is considerable.

If you shoot the 416 as well as the 375, I'd take the bigger gun every time.

In my experience, the difference between the two comes to exactly ZERO!

That is why I have stopped hunting with the 416, or any bigger caliber.

And I have not looked back.

I have both, and usually take both of them with me.

If you have an elephant on the menu, granted its not a big bull, the extra penetration the .416 gives might be comforting.

However, you will have to both carry and shoot your choice.

If you can hit a softball every time with the .416 at 50 yards, I would choose that. Otherwise, take the .375

Similarly, if you can't carry the .416 for a couple miles/5km and you can the .375, take the .375.

I don't have the personal experience to justify an opinion, just a couple observations

The 30/06 w/220 grain, the 375 w/300 grain and the 416 w/400 grain ballistically are not a whole bunch different out to about 200 yards.
If sighted in at 100 yards they all drop about 5 to 6 inches at 200 yards

The 375 and 416 have nearly the same velocity at the muzzle in factory loadings, the 375 being only about 200 feet per second faster. The 416 carries the speed better out to about 150 yards. After that the 375 zooms past

The ballistic coefficient of the 375 is significantly better than the 416, which only matters at longer range targets. In equal rifles, a 416 could never be as accurate as a 375. At short range, it don't matter

The extra hundred grains of bullet weight from the 416 are definatly more impressive and provide a little "fudge " factor. Because of the round cross section area the 416 is larger in surface area by nearly 1/3 over the 375

The recoil energy of a 416 Rigby is higher than that of a 458 Win Mag

For large mediums (9.3, 375 etc) to large bore bullets (404 and above), the 416 out penetrates all of the others

Most PH's if asked the question would give the same answer as most of the above, which do you feel more comfortable with. If you are comfortable with both they would probably advise the 416 for heavy animals like elephant and buffalo

If recoil is a problem, just put one of those muzzle brake thingy's on it. PH's love those

Take both! I've brought both a .416 and a .375 on two safaris, but the only shots taken with the .375 were on the range when we sighted in.

My .416 is my favorite rifle and I don't regard it as any disadvantage on any game, no matter how small -- just use a solid.

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:
I don't have the personal experience to justify an opinion, just a couple observations

The 30/06 w/220 grain, the 375 w/300 grain and the 416 w/400 grain ballistically are not a whole bunch different out to about 200 yards.
If sighted in at 100 yards they all drop about 5 to 6 inches at 200 yards

The 375 and 416 have nearly the same velocity at the muzzle in factory loadings, the 375 being only about 200 feet per second faster. The 416 carries the speed better out to about 150 yards. After that the 375 zooms past

The ballistic coefficient of the 375 is significantly better than the 416, which only matters at longer range targets. In equal rifles, a 416 could never be as accurate as a 375. At short range, it don't matter

The extra hundred grains of bullet weight from the 416 are definatly more impressive and provide a little "fudge " factor. Because of the round cross section area the 416 is larger in surface area by nearly 1/3 over the 375

The recoil energy of a 416 Rigby is higher than that of a 458 Win Mag

For large mediums (9.3, 375 etc) to large bore bullets (404 and above), the 416 out penetrates all of the others

Most PH's if asked the question would give the same answer as most of the above, which do you feel more comfortable with. If you are comfortable with both they would probably advise the 416 for heavy animals like elephant and buffalo

If recoil is a problem, just put one of those muzzle brake thingy's on it. PH's love those

Hold on. Back up a bit. The BC is significantly better in 375 than 416? Well, at least not in the TSX, which is the bullet I shoot in both of these calibers. From the Barnes website, the 300gr., .375 TSX has a BC of .357, while the 400gr., .416 TSX has a BC of .392. Significantly better in the .416 than .375! The .416 holds its speed better at range than the .375 which is one of the reasons, combined with the MUCH better performance in close, I believe the .416 is a much better all-round DG rifle than the .375.

Just another example, in the lighter bullet weights, the .375 in 270gr has a BC of .326 while the .416 in 350gr has a BC of .345. Again, BC advantage to the .416.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:
I don't have the personal experience to justify an opinion, just a couple observations

The 30/06 w/220 grain, the 375 w/300 grain and the 416 w/400 grain ballistically are not a whole bunch different out to about 200 yards.
If sighted in at 100 yards they all drop about 5 to 6 inches at 200 yards

The 375 and 416 have nearly the same velocity at the muzzle in factory loadings, the 375 being only about 200 feet per second faster. The 416 carries the speed better out to about 150 yards. After that the 375 zooms past

The ballistic coefficient of the 375 is significantly better than the 416, which only matters at longer range targets. In equal rifles, a 416 could never be as accurate as a 375. At short range, it don't matter

The extra hundred grains of bullet weight from the 416 are definatly more impressive and provide a little "fudge " factor. Because of the round cross section area the 416 is larger in surface area by nearly 1/3 over the 375

The recoil energy of a 416 Rigby is higher than that of a 458 Win Mag

For large mediums (9.3, 375 etc) to large bore bullets (404 and above), the 416 out penetrates all of the others

Most PH's if asked the question would give the same answer as most of the above, which do you feel more comfortable with. If you are comfortable with both they would probably advise the 416 for heavy animals like elephant and buffalo

If recoil is a problem, just put one of those muzzle brake thingy's on it. PH's love those

Hold on. Back up a bit. The BC is significantly better in 375 than 416? Well, at least not in the TSX, which is the bullet I shoot in both of these calibers. From the Barnes website, the 300gr., .375 TSX has a BC of .357, while the 400gr., .416 TSX has a BC of .392. Significantly better in the .416 than .375! The .416 holds its speed better at range than the .375 which is one of the reasons, combined with the MUCH better performance in close, I believe the .416 is a much better all-round DG rifle than the .375.

Just another example, in the lighter bullet weights, the .375 in 270gr has a BC of .326 while the .416 in 350gr has a BC of .345. Again, BC advantage to the .416.

Todd, ballistic coefficient, I guess that depends on which manufacturer you are using to some degree, and which rifle. The 416 Barrett was developed for a reason, although it is markedly different rifle than a short barreled DG rifle
You will get no argument from me as I do agree that the 416 is better all around for DG, and that is comparing it to all DG chambering's IMHO. Someone else said that they take both, and the only shots from the 375 have been at the range. I also take both, although I have used the 375 for more precise shooting situations
Nope, I am not taking a delicate placed shot or 300 yard shot with my 416 over my 375

I am flabbergasted as to why no one has made any nasty's over my muzzle brake comment
Shit, whats the use of stirring the pot if no one pays attention. Bunch of ingrates anyway's

split the difference.
dont take either.
this is a perfect excuse to buy a new rifle, a 404 J. Recoils not much different from the 375, and hits only slightly less hard than the 416

Hey, I put muzzle brake on my 404 and 375 Browning has factory Boss brake on it

A 375 Weatherby (can also shoot 375 H&H factory) with a good 350g bullet at 2550 fps is a nice middle ground. A simple rechambering job and you can fireform brass shooting 375 H&H factory or reloads.

North Fork bonded 350g bullet?

http://www.northforkbullets.co...ets/375-350-ss.html/

Oh my God, now we are starting to delve into the sacrilege of muzzle brakes. By all means, drop down to a .375 before you go to the dark side.

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:
I don't have the personal experience to justify an opinion, just a couple observations

The 30/06 w/220 grain, the 375 w/300 grain and the 416 w/400 grain ballistically are not a whole bunch different out to about 200 yards.
If sighted in at 100 yards they all drop about 5 to 6 inches at 200 yards

The 375 and 416 have nearly the same velocity at the muzzle in factory loadings, the 375 being only about 200 feet per second faster. The 416 carries the speed better out to about 150 yards. After that the 375 zooms past

The ballistic coefficient of the 375 is significantly better than the 416, which only matters at longer range targets. In equal rifles, a 416 could never be as accurate as a 375. At short range, it don't matter

The extra hundred grains of bullet weight from the 416 are definatly more impressive and provide a little "fudge " factor. Because of the round cross section area the 416 is larger in surface area by nearly 1/3 over the 375

The recoil energy of a 416 Rigby is higher than that of a 458 Win Mag

For large mediums (9.3, 375 etc) to large bore bullets (404 and above), the 416 out penetrates all of the others

Most PH's if asked the question would give the same answer as most of the above, which do you feel more comfortable with. If you are comfortable with both they would probably advise the 416 for heavy animals like elephant and buffalo

If recoil is a problem, just put one of those muzzle brake thingy's on it. PH's love those

Hold on. Back up a bit. The BC is significantly better in 375 than 416? Well, at least not in the TSX, which is the bullet I shoot in both of these calibers. From the Barnes website, the 300gr., .375 TSX has a BC of .357, while the 400gr., .416 TSX has a BC of .392. Significantly better in the .416 than .375! The .416 holds its speed better at range than the .375 which is one of the reasons, combined with the MUCH better performance in close, I believe the .416 is a much better all-round DG rifle than the .375.

Just another example, in the lighter bullet weights, the .375 in 270gr has a BC of .326 while the .416 in 350gr has a BC of .345. Again, BC advantage to the .416.

Todd, ballistic coefficient, I guess that depends on which manufacturer you are using to some degree, and which rifle. The 416 Barrett was developed for a reason, although it is markedly different rifle than a short barreled DG rifle
You will get no argument from me as I do agree that the 416 is better all around for DG, and that is comparing it to all DG chambering's IMHO. Someone else said that they take both, and the only shots from the 375 have been at the range. I also take both, although I have used the 375 for more precise shooting situations
Nope, I am not taking a delicate placed shot or 300 yard shot with my 416 over my 375

I am flabbergasted as to why no one has made any nasty's over my muzzle brake comment
Shit, whats the use of stirring the pot if no one pays attention. Bunch of ingrates anyway's

Yeah, for sure, somewhat dependent on which bullet manufacturer. I'm just familiar with the TSX because that's all I shoot in those calibers. After posting, I checked the Nosler website for reference and with the Partitions, the two calibers BCs are within .001 of each other. I just haven't seen the "significantly better BC with the .375" anywhere, although I'll take your word for it that it exists with certain bullet makes.

I really wouldn't have an issue with using the .416 for any range I'd use the .375 for however. Ballistically, I think the .416 is superior, although marginally so. And in the case of the Rigby, one really can, with judicious work up, achieve the same velocity or better than the .375 by going over the "published" data which was developed for the old less temp stable propellants of the past.

IMO, the long range performance of these two calibers simply comes down to recoil tolerance. As you stated, the muzzle brake would negate that, but again IMO, that is best applied to the range practice sessions as you'll not notice the recoil when shooting in the field.

Anyway, no big deal. Your comment just caught my attention as it's a point I've always made reference to as another reason the .416 is the better choice. Yet again, for the third time in this post, that's simply my opinion.

Cheers.

quote:

Originally posted by emron:
split the difference.
dont take either.
this is a perfect excuse to buy a new rifle, a 404 J. Recoils not much different from the 375, and hits only slightly less hard than the 416

Split the difference? The .404 Jeffery is bigger than both the .375 and the .416, but I get your point on recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
A 375 Weatherby (can also shoot 375 H&H factory) with a good 350g bullet at 2550 fps is a nice middle ground. A simple rechambering job and you can fireform brass shooting 375 H&H factory or reloads.

North Fork bonded 350g bullet?

http://www.northforkbullets.co...ets/375-350-ss.html/

If we start talking about shooting the 350gr bullets however, I still make the argument for the .416 being better in that with the Rigby, one can easily get 2700fps or a bit better with the 350gr bullet, while at the same time allowing for loading down to the .375 Weatherby's performance level. Another argument for the superior versatility of the 416. Yes, BC in the .375 with a 350gr bullet would be better, but as already stated, you can start the same weight bullet faster with the Rigby if desired all the while getting the benefits of better frontal area with the larger caliber.

quote:

I am flabbergasted as to why no one has made any nasty's over my muzzle brake comment
Shit, whats the use of stirring the pot if no one pays attention. Bunch of ingrates anyway's

You can't take a hint. Let me be clear. Anyone who would consider a muzzle brake is in the same category of those who voted for BoBo, well not quite. Those folks are beyond redemption.

^^^^^

I had a 378 Weatherby in my Weatherby days . Let me say that if I was today going to get a 416 Weatherby , I would put the muzzle brake on it and never leave home without it or put a round in it without the brake on it . LOL .

Take both since it would suck if your one rifle went down for any reason, but use the 416, especially on the elephant. The chances of facing a charge are much higher when tuskless cow hunting than bull hunting and according to Zim Parks data a hell of a lot higher than when buff hunting. You will want the greatest chance to stop a charge yourself in the event the PH misses or doesn't have the opportunity and the 416 does a better job if your shot isn't perfect than the 375.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:

quote:

I am flabbergasted as to why no one has made any nasty's over my muzzle brake comment
Shit, whats the use of stirring the pot if no one pays attention. Bunch of ingrates anyway's

You can't take a hint. Let me be clear. Anyone who would consider a muzzle brake is in the same category of those who voted for BoBo, well not quite. Those folks are beyond redemption.

well sir, I will remove you from my ingrate list. Happy day to you! Todd, look at swifts line of ammo for comparisons. Once again I reiterate, at short distances the BC means absolutely nothing
As I stated prior, I do not possess what I would call enough experience to justify an opinion on DG. The 375 is an outstanding middle ground cartridge, extremely adapt at elk and such bigger normally non-thethal critters. I would say it is the finest elk cartridge ever developed. However this discussion is about elephant and buffalo. As another poster said "it is adequate" for big hairy man stompers, and I am of the same opinion, just as I am of the opinion that anything larger than a 300 is to much gun for a leopard. However, the 375 is my go to rifle in almost every other occasion, I have learned to trust it completely. A lot of that comes with consistent usage and practice, knowing exactly where it hits at yardage and the overall fit and feel of the rifle
My elephant hunt this year I am taking a 450 3 1/4 Double. Ballistically inferior to a 416 Rigby IMO. The 375 will be tagging along in case of a few plains game or a precise shot on a hippo or croc
fyi for all muzzle brake haters. I have brakes on both my 416 and 375. man do they shoot sweet, the 375 recoil is similar to a 270, the 416 maybe 300 win mag. Hell, my 72 year old mother is able to shoot them. I just hand out extra ear protection at the start. No one has bitched (at least out loud)
the 450, well I am just going to have to take the punishment, which is not bad compared to the 416 prior to the Viaa muzzle brake. Bad shoulders suck, but I will wear one of those sissy pads

Thanks all! As usual, opinions are vary ))) I also thought about advantages of 416 in case of charge. But my PH told that real difference begins from . 500 NE

404 J is an attractive caliber, but it is not certified in Russia.

quote:

Originally posted by Roman BGH:
Thanks all! As usual, opinions are vary ))) I also thought about advantages of 416 in case of charge. But my PH told that real difference begins from . 500 NE

404 J is an attractive caliber, but it is not certified in Russia.

The only way you can guarantee to stop a charge is to hit the brain, regardless of caliber.

Anything else is just old wives tales

Thank you, Saeed! Your experience is a very strong argument.

Perhaps I am wrong but have I not read that there is merit for long range assessment of BC to look at the G7 BC at least as an accompaniment to the G1 BC of a projectile which we all quote so happily? I don't have a program in front of me just thinking off the top of the noggin so perhaps someone can shed some light on this matter further.

Beyond that the obvious answer has already been stated; the caliber you can shoot better.

At the ranges we hunt, BC is not really that relevant.

and that, Saeed, is quite actually the point isn't it??

If your shot placement is perfect there will be no difference...... if the shot is very poor, there will be no difference.....if the shot is marginal then personally I think the 416 has a significant edge. And all things being equal the difference in recoil between a 416 and 375 is negligible

Forget about BC on this one, at Dangerous Game ranges it is totally irrelevant

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Roman BGH:
Thanks all! As usual, opinions are vary ))) I also thought about advantages of 416 in case of charge. But my PH told that real difference begins from . 500 NE

404 J is an attractive caliber, but it is not certified in Russia.

The only way you can guarantee to stop a charge is to hit the brain, regardless of caliber.

Anything else is just old wives tales

Yes, there are a lot of those old wives and those old wives have names like Pondoro Taylor, Ian Nyschens, Richard Harland, Barry Duckworth, Roger Whittall, Frank Groebler....

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Roman BGH:
Thanks all! As usual, opinions are vary ))) I also thought about advantages of 416 in case of charge. But my PH told that real difference begins from . 500 NE

404 J is an attractive caliber, but it is not certified in Russia.

The only way you can guarantee to stop a charge is to hit the brain, regardless of caliber.

Anything else is just old wives tales

Yes, there are a lot of those old wives and those old wives have names like Pondoro Taylor, Ian Nyschens, Richard Harland, Barry Duckworth, Roger Whittall, Frank Groebler....

JPK

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would advocate hunting elephant with any weapon smaller than the largest caliber rifle that you can handle and shoot accurately. The laws of physics are simply incontrovertible. Can it be done? Sure. Should it be done? Why?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would advocate hunting elephant with any weapon smaller than the largest caliber rifle that you can handle and shoot accurately. The laws of physics are simply incontrovertible. Can it be done? Sure. Should it be done? Why?

Mike, I think some guys are looking for the one size fits most sort of thing. Reminds me of the old saying beware of the guy who only shoots one gun, cause he probably knows how to shoot it.
A one size to fit all in DG country should probably be something around the 416 Rigby, especially with elephant on the menu. The cover is thick, distances are short and you don't know what you are going to bounce into around the next impenetrable jess thicket
I for one would not go all the way to Africa with one rifle or one caliber. To many wrong things can happen. It costs a helluva lot to go hunt ele and buff, why take the chance? An extra rifle in a different caliber is cheap insurance. Regardless of choice of 375 or 416, there is a significant amount of backup in the form of the PH, usually with a large diameter bullet and a high amount of skill.

With all due respect to those old geezers, some of the things they have written are a load of plain BS.

Taylor's Knockout is at the top of that heap.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
With all due respect to those old geezers, some of the things they have written are a load of plain BS.

Taylor's Knockout is at the top of that heap.

With all due respect Saeed, I am much more inclined to listen to Richard Harland, Barry Duckworth and Roger Whittail when it comes to recommendations on calibers for hunting elephant than present company. Those "old geezers" have forgotten more about elephant hunting than you or I will ever know. No disrespect intended, but that is just a fact.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Roman BGH:
Thanks all! As usual, opinions are vary ))) I also thought about advantages of 416 in case of charge. But my PH told that real difference begins from . 500 NE

404 J is an attractive caliber, but it is not certified in Russia.

The only way you can guarantee to stop a charge is to hit the brain, regardless of caliber.

Anything else is just old wives tales

All evidence to the contrary!

Good grief Saeed. Do you really expect that every shot at elephant in close quarters under stress will hit the brain, 100% of the time? And do you deny that a close miss to the brain with a big bore rifle will routinely stop or drop, at least temporarily, an elephant in it's tracks? Why you insist on this fallacy, I have no idea, especially in light of the fact that you surely have enough experience in these matters to know differently.

I certainly have limited experience with eles to date. Of the 5 I've shot, 4 were missed brain shots. 3 of those were close enough to drop the animal in it's tracks, thereby "stopping" them. The 4th was missed too far to have this effect, but the follow up fired from an acute angle behind the ear, also missed the brain but had the same effect of dropping it in it's tracks. None of these 4 regained their feet although 3 tried. Point being that with the 500 and 577, these elephant were most certainly dropped and stopped, but not killed out right because the brain was missed, but missed closely. I've posted video of three of these, with the first occurring prior to my hiring a cameraman. Most certainly NOT an old wives tale. In fact, if there is an Old Wives Tale being told here, it's that a man, any man, can guarantee a perfect brain shot on elephant every time. Ivan can't do it. Buzz can't do it. Are you claiming you can? Can you leap tall buildings with a single bound as well? Just curious.