Todd,

Even Saeed admits he can't hit the brain of an elephant every time, and he also managed to drop the elephant while missing the brain. Here, a quote from Saeed from the "Criteria" thread in Big Bores: "I personally missed the brain on an elephant bull, he dropped to the ground struggling and I added another shot to the top of his head, killing him."

We should add Ron Thomson to the list of old wives telling old wives' tales. He used a big bore too, and killed a mere couple of thousand eles.

As I mentioned in the "Criteria" thread, every one of those elephant greats relates stories of both missed brain shots and lives saved with their big bores. Other than their advocacy of big bores, the one thing those old geezers have in common is that none of them was killed by an elephant despite their combined decades of elephant hunting with tens of thousands of elephants killed between them.

JPK

.505 Gibbs + .577NE
Enough for all game

I think a lot of things were changed since those famous hunters hunted. Cartridges are not the same, bullets are different, etc. That's why experience of modern hunters, PHs is so important. I would not listen for hunter who hunted only with 375. But if hunter or PH have hunted with 375, 416, 458, 470, 500, 577 and tell me that the difference between 375 and 416 is not too much, I am going to believe him.

And don't forget, we are talking about 375 and 416, not about all big bores. I think I will buy DR in .500 NE again later, but this summer I will hunt with 1 rifle.

I am new to Big bores & have not been to Africa yet.

Planning for my safari this year, i have been doing a LOT of reading and discussing.

I have shot the 375H&H but do not own one. But i do own a 9.3X62 & a 416 Rigby. The 9.3X62 is very close to the 375 H&H in recoil and paper stats. 286 gr bullet is close enough to the 375 in performance according to many who have actually used both extensively.

I find the 416 Rigby significantly mor powerful - in recoil & in paper stats.

I am taking the 9.3 7 the 416. the 416 will be my primary rifle for Buffalo. I might use the 9.3 on PG for a change - as I do want to use that 100+ year old Mauser in Africa.

The 375 H&H is one of the best all around chamberings ever invented and I’ve almost never been without one in my vault, and most times along with my larger rifle in Africa.

Still though I would take on elephant with a 375 H&H if that was what was available, I would rather have something larger. My big bore at present is a 470NE double rifle, but if it went south on safari, the 375 H&H would get a work out rather than go home empty.

Like Todd if I had my choice for a dedicated elephant rifle it would be a 500NE double rifle, but as it stands now the 470NE would do almost as well. I have never warmed up to any of the .416 chamberings! IMO they don’t offer much over any of the .375s and are far below the 470NE/500NE range of rifles for a dedicated elephant/buffalo rifle.

There are two chamberings that I would like to try in a good CRF bolt rifle and they are the 404/375 like Saeed’s, and a classic 404 Jeffery in a Mauser sporter.

In Rolland’s case I would take both his rifles, and shoot which was in my hands when the trophy was encountered.


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quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Like Todd if I had my choice for a dedicated elephant rifle it would be a 500NE double rifle, but as it stands now the 470NE would do almost as well.

I had DR in .500, but according to some circumstances I could not go to safari. That's why I presented it to my friend. Now I am looking for good new DR in .500

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
I have never warmed up to any of the .416 chamberings! IMO they don’t offer much over any of the .375s and are far below the 470NE/500NE range of rifles for a dedicated elephant/buffalo rifle.

That's what I am talking about. You are not the only one who see no big difference between 375 and 416 meaning elephant hunt.

The .416 Rigby or Remington is substanially more gun than a .375 H&H and is a wonderful buffalo gun and also a great elephant cartridge do to its ability to penetrate (perhaps better than a .470 Nitro with the right bullets). If you can handle the recoil, I don't think there is any question what gun you should choose to hunt DG. Ask your PH which he would rather have you carry.

I like math, numbers, gives me definitive answers or at least directions, most of the time. Lets look at numbers shall we?

Muzzle energy in Ft#

416 Rigby - 5115
470 Nitro - 5132
500 Nitro - 5581
375 H&H - 4064
9.3x62 Mauser - 3537

See where I am going with this? The Rigby has almost the equal ME of the accepted "stoppers", and quite a bit more than the 375 or the 9.3. It also has a higher sectional density, it ought to penetrate better as well. Truth is, the first three on this list aren't noted for lack of penetration, are they?

I think the post earlier hit the nail on the head, shoot the one that you can most reliably hit the softball/beercan/whatever at 50 yards. If you can serve up 400 grains on target, under stress, you shouldn't have any issues. Bullet placement is much more important, than whether it is 5000 or 5500 ft# energy being delivered.

I can also carry a 416 a lot further than a 577, somewhere around mile 10, ounces become pounds, and pounds are heartbreakers.

One good thing about either the 375 or 416, if you need more ammo, or to replace lost ammo in Africa, you should be able to borrow or buy it there. Not a small piece of comfort, it isn't like ordering more from the store over there.

FWIW, I have shot 300gr Woodleighs into dead elephant heads to test penetration. The 375H&H doesn't come up short in penetration for a frontal or side brain shot. I suspect it is more than fine for a heart/lung shot too.

Where it is lacking is in stopping power, and trusting your PH, his gun, his ammo, with your life is foolish, imo.

[But if a 375H&H was all I had, I would be on elephant tracks rather than sitting in camp. On the other hand, I have the remains of a 375 bullet that was taken out of a tusk of one bull I shot. It's jacket only, and God knows how long it was in the tusk. I wonder what happened to the fellow who shot it. Strawberry Jam?]

JPK

Here is a photo of some of the bullets I have recovered from elephant I have shot. The 375 bullet recovered from the tusk is in the bottom row, third from left. (The lead bullet fourth from the left, bottom row is an unfired 500gr .458" gas checked hard cast I shot similar to several I shot into elephant heads for an AR member at ~1500fps, 45/70 velocity. Those bullets chipped and broke, but the penetrated the brain, barely.)



JPK

I haven't recovered any of the 416 Rigby's I have put into elephant, all three side brain shots, one slightly quartering away. They all exited the other side, all Barnes Banded solids. All DRT too.

Here is a picture of 4 416 TSX recovered from a cape buffalo, the two most distorted are from the finishing shots about 3 feet away, from rear spine into brisket. All recovered under the off side hide.



In both cases, these did what they were supposed to do - the solids, penetrate, the TSX, expand and expend all the energy inside the animal.

you can't kill something too dead! shoot the biggest gun you can handle well. Shot placement is the main key to success, knock down power always helps.