I followed the Rigby thread on this forum and the double rifle forum and I have to say I can't understand the Amercicans and the Royal Warrant.

Given what America was about in the 1700s one would think the Searcy or similar would be the desired double.

I am quite fascinated by the attraction the English rifle has to Americans and also the English bolt gun based on a German action.

I am equally fascinated by American rejection of Weatherby which is Chev Corvette and Saturn V...

What triggered this post was I was called today by someone who has a small interest in guns and he phoned to say....I have emailed you a link of some guns the Americans will hate...it was the H&H site. This bloke is a drag racer in Australia and very pro America and big V8s etc.

When I told him about the rifle situation he could not believe it.

Not trying to start an argument...just fascinated. If we transferred this to cars then Americans would be fighting over who gets a ride in a Riley or Austin Shearline (spelling?)

If we take the car analogy one step further and a 427 Cobra then we would have the English gun in 460 Wby.


Is it all related to Africa having been part of the British empire etc. and connecttion with African hunting.

quote:

427 Cobra

Now that is a fine vintage sportscar...

Royal warrants only matter to "queens."

And Kings and Princes and Princesses. . . .

Perhaps the concern of Royal Warrants and Rigby is only academic.

Has anyone on AR ever purchased a new English double rifle?

For

quote:

And Kings and Princes and Princesses. . . .

only??

Rightly or wrongly, the fact is that if a company has the right to display a Royal Warrant it's worth a fortune to them in additional business.

Many here fancy themselves English aristocrats born 100 years too late and in the wrong country.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
And Kings and Princes and Princesses. . . .

Princess Madelene of Sweden (she is also a keen hunter)

I figure The Queen of England finally got all "wee-weed-up" (to borrow some Obama speak) over John Rigby's name having absconded to Kalifornistan, USA.

Hence she issued a Royal Warrant for his arrest and extradition to London.

Rigby has always been a good Irish gun.
It would be better made in Australia, than Kalifornistan.

Those British have always been messing with the Irish.
My royalist ancestors (Endymion Porter's line on my Mom's side) had to flee England for Ireland when the British beheaded their king.
From thence they were harrassed over to America, and freedom.

About getting "wee-weed-up" over Royal Warrants:
Not many of us on this side of the pond give a squat.

Yours Truly,
"Rip"
Just another "worthless person," 31/32 Irish and 1/32 Cherokee,
who gets erections in another part of his body besides his pinky fingers.

Rip,

The problem with you lot of damn philistine colonials is that you never learned to like tea.......

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Rightly or wrongly, the fact is that if a company has the right to display a Royal Warrant it's worth a fortune to them in additional business.

Agree. But why?

And again, what relevance does it have with Rigby when about no one here is buying new English double rifles. Perhaps it is important to get the name /rifle right so it is the correct rifle in years to come when it is bought used???

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
Many here fancy themselves English aristocrats born 100 years too late and in the wrong country.

Too funny.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

Agree. But why?

And again, what relevance does it have with Rigby when about no one here is buying new English double rifles. Perhaps it is important to get the name /rifle right so it is the correct rifle in years to come when it is bought used???

Snobbery mostly....... there's a lot of people there who for some reason like to be able to say they buy their knickers (or whatever) from the same place as the Queen or whoever.

As to Rigby, neither company claims to hold a Royal Warrant although the Cal one has them on their website for 'historical interest' (presumably)

The difference between an English or Scottish bespoke double is better build quality AND style. Sure, other nations make fine doubles but they're not the same.

The best way to see that is to look at a fine quality English or Scottish double and at those from other nations and compare them one against the other.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

Snobbery mostly....... there's a lot of people there who for some reason like to be able to say they buy their knickers (or whatever) from the same place as the Queen or whoever.

But wouldn't that only apply to buyers of new English double rifles?

A question I asked on one of the other threads but did not get an answer so will try here...

At its peak was Rigby up there with H&H and Purdey or more at the Westley Richards level?

And if it was previously up at the top end then does the promise of low price doubles even with Royal Warrant undo everything?

No mate, it applies to everything any company holds a Royal Warrant for...... and that includes a corset supplier called Rigby and Peller. Check here http://www.royalwarrant.org/

Yes, at it's peak, Rigby were right up there with H&H & Purdey etc...... but I hope you won't mind me correcting you about Westley Richards. They're also right up there with the others and of the three, I'd choose a WR droplock over the other two any day of the week.

Actually, I'd probably choose a WR droplock over one each of the other two.

A royal Warrant implies that said product is what the queen would buy herself should she be in the market for said item...ie, it is the best available, at any price.

That is the theory...being Scots and seeing that the royal Warrant for Whisky is held by an italian and a scot (justini & brooks) and that there is a nasty hangover in every bottle...compared to some of the other blends (like haig or Chivas) makes me wonder sometimes...Still it does mean that their guarantee is VERY GOOD!

My best way of explaining would be that back in yesteryear, a royal Warrant could be compared to an honest and good write up by one of the semi celebrity journalists of today, it were a mark of quality and brought both trade and goodwill to the company who earned those warrants/write ups.

John Rigby & Co. (gunmakers) Ltd. Made both high end shotguns/rifles and lower end products as well as the other houses did, the rising bite were recognised for being a very special and exclusive action, as it consist of more parts than the other actions and required a lot more skill and hand fitting, both then and now, it is a test of the gunmakers skill and knowledge.
I hope this explains this a bit better.

Best Regards

Peter A. Nerving

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Yes, at it's peak, Rigby were right up there with H&H & Purdey etc...... but I hope you won't mind me correcting you about Westley Richards. They're also right up there with the others and of the three, I'd choose a WR droplock over the other two any day of the week.

I was under the impression that WR was much cheaper than H&H and Purdey but obviously I got the wrong the impression.

But with Rigby, surely if the new ones are at a promised low price that degrades them. Put it another way, could the new Rigbys with name fixed Royal Warrants etc in place sell at the same price as H&H, Purdey and WR.

In other words will the new Rigby be the English double you buy when you can't afford H&H, Purdey or WR.

As a side note, one of the things that interests me about the Rigby deal is some of these modern marketing people and that is....doing Rigby in California and being near Weatherby Just reading the two threads would let anyone know that being in England is a key point and especially London. But anyone who knows even a little about double rifles would not need to read the threads to learn that.

I should have added that the only double I'd choose over a Westley Richards droplock is a good round action double and as they're usually sooooooo expensive, I'm looking forward to seeing the new English round action double......

I'm sure glad that the elephant and buff that I have shot with my double rifle didn't ask to first see the Royal Warrant! How dare I to have shot them without one of those fine English doubles and a Royal Warrant! You have all shamed me into uncontrolled laughter! By the way, her majesty, the Princess of Sweden is certainly welcome to hunt with me anytime, with or without a Royal Warrant!

Well, let's look at it this way, if you were given a choice of a fine English double with a Royal Warrant, or one of those Teutonic, or "Colonial" doubles which would you choose? jorge

jorge

I'd choose a POS bolt rifle and spend the extra cash on trophy fees. I can just feel the cyber eggs, bottles and rocks coming my way. I'm ducking now!!!

Mark

I would like to read a good book on the history of english and german sporting rifles.I got a brief history on the integral quarter rib over the phone with my gunsmith the other day.Anyone know of a good book on the subject?

It seems to me that you seem to be under the impression that Americans have some animosity towards the British dating back to the Revolutionary War. That couldn't be further from the truth. After all, we won.

At the beginning of last month I told the guys from Air New Zealand that I work with that we would not be in the office on Friday because of the national holiday. They asked "Which one?" And I said that they wouldn't understand it, it's called "Independence Day"

jorge: Very good point. However, in reality, I don't believe that too many of us will ever be given that choice. It seems to fall into that realm of various fantasies that deals with very fine and expensive cars, famous beautiful women, winning the lottery, etc. etc.

EUG: :::SIGH::: I know, but man I've handled quite a few doubles and there's just no comparison! jorge

Mike and some others might find this http://www.shakariconnection.com/double-rifles.html link interesting.

Shootaway and some others might find what you're looking for here: http://www.shakariconnection.com/bookshelf.html

Gotta love the Brits! Personally not infatuated with pomp and circumstance myself, although I often dream of the day when I walk into the gun room at H&H London, with enough cash in my pocket to get a double rifle of my dreams and have the staff give me a pedicure while the measure me up!

John

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Rip,

The problem with you lot of damn philistine colonials is that you never learned to like tea.......

Steve, Many of us like tea. We have even gone so far as to develop a taste for the fresh green tea. Totally different from the "fermented" stuff that sat in the boats for months the Brits taught us to drink.

Ps: A royal warrant only matters to someone who for whatever reason thinks these types of things are important. Still, it looks impressive on a resume I guess. Now the quality of the product? That matters.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Smith:
Ps: A royal warrant only matters to someone who for whatever reason thinks these types of things are important. Still, it looks impressive on a resume I guess. Now the quality of the product? That matters.

I agree. A large part of it is nothing more than snobbery and certainly not my cup of tea.

To me it's the quality of the product that's important not who else buys it. That said, a company doesn't get a Royal Warrant by producing an inferior product.

However, purely from a business point of view, that snobbery means that a Royal Warrant is worth a fortune to those who hold it.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Mike and some others might find this http://www.shakariconnection.com/double-rifles.html link interesting.

Some good reading there.

I had the Weatherby custom shop open and did the right thing and closed it before opening yours

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
Gotta love the Brits! Personally not infatuated with pomp and circumstance myself, although I often dream of the day when I walk into the gun room at H&H London, with enough cash in my pocket to get a double rifle of my dreams and have the staff give me a pedicure while the measure me up!

John

The Weatherby custom shop should be next door so after your pedicure they could organise some big titted wonder girls for you.

Mike,

The guy who wrote the double rifle article is the most knowledgeable rifle (esp double rifle) man I've ever met.

You give him a makers name and he reels off the entire company history, background of their work and anything else you'd ever need to know.

He's also one of the funniest men you'll ever come across in your life........ ask Judge G!

Steve,

There is a bloke in Australia that has the H&H doubles in all the "ends with Nitro" calibres up to and including the 700. He has matching number plates on his cars as in 500 Nitro etc.

Mike,

Very nice too! I guess he's a man who likes to be noticed!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Rip,

The problem with you lot of damn philistine colonials is that you never learned to like tea.......

Steve, the national drink of Texas is TEA! However it is iced tea!

As far as the double rifle goes the reason the Americans or people from any country like the British double rifles is because that is where the first successful ones were made, and is basically an English concept. Many think that any double rifle made by a company that carries the royal warrant, was the best of the best, and is worth far more money than one made by a company that doesn't have the warrant. This is a collector thing, not a shooter/hunter concept!

This is like the mint mark on coins, a deciding factor of the worth because of it's rarity. This is not necessarily so, but that is the thinking behind the collector of double rifles and shotguns. However when you get down to facts, it is all based in snobbery, nothing more.

The S/S double rifle was more a rifle design for use in India than Africa, so even though the English holdings in Africa, does have some impact, India was home to most of the makers output of double rifles in their hey-day.


In my opinion, as someone above has already said, the idea the Britt’s built the best double rifle is not a fact, but an opinion. In fact, I find many of the German, and Austrian double rifles to better made, but are passed over because of the fact that they look so funny, to the so-called classic eye.

The Britt "best rifles" in the bolt-action system are simply pimped up German Mausers, with a few British proof marks stamped on them, and are not really British at all.

People think the outsourcing of work or parts is something new, but the Britts did that way back in the 1800s with Krupp steel barrels, and Mauser actions, and rifles actually made in Ireland or Germany but proofed in Birmingham, England.

The suggestion someone made above The Americans want to be British aristocrats, is nonsense. The year 1776 should have dispelled any thinking of that nature!

Royal Warrants are easy to understand. It is simply a marketing ploy. The queen or duke endorses a product and people think that is cool so they buy it.

Now how many H&H royals did it take to get the warrant? Or how many biscuit tins? or whatever.

Would be interesting to see someday.

Now I have the "American Patriot John Hunt" warrant available for any company that wants to give me a double.

Keep in mind that the royal warrants were not just issued by the king & Queen of England but also by many many Maharajas in India who bought and used some of the finest double rifles ever made.

Here is a link to some of these warrants earned by Westley Richards for example http://www.westleyrichards.co....E-COMPANY/Chronology

In recent years 70s and 80s after hunting closed in India, many of these firms especially H&H and Westley Richards came back to India and bought up many of these fine double rifles. In those days ammo was no longer available and double rifles were worthless! My uncle did a wonderful deal and swapped my grandfathers 500 H&H double for an air rifle!

I'll take one of Peter Hofer's double's, the one he sells for $1.6 million (yes, million) dollars. I'm sure that one would certainly kill Elephants quicker than the "other brands"

quote:

Originally posted by L. David Keith:
I'll take one of Peter Hofer's double's, the one he sells for $1.6 million (yes, million) dollars. I'm sure that one would certainly kill Elephants quicker than the "other brands"

Double

http://www.hoferwaffen.com/hof...2s.php?id=13&lang=en

Bolt action

http://www.hoferwaffen.com/hofer_52s.php?id=1&lang=en

Makes the Wby custom shop that has received the big cheque, look conservative