The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Would you own land in South Africa?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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This is part hypothetical / part real-world scenario.... Would you, as a foreign individual (likely an American), feel comfortable owning a game farm property in South Africa? And why (or why not)? More specifically, would you consider owning a property that adjoined a property owned by someone you knew and trusted....who was willing to manage/maintain the property and partner with you in an already-established hunting business? I am asking because the folks I recently hunted with have a neighbor who apparently has financial troubles, and is being forced to sell his property significantly under market value (I believe the bank is actually ordering the sale). I do not have the ability to purchase something like this, but given my history in real estate, they have asked me to help them find someone. I just don't know enough about the laws/restrictions/rights of an American owning land in RSA to speak knowledgably about it. So I would really appreciate any input you guys may have. It sounds great in theory, but I suspect it may be difficult to have a good contract that spells out all the necessary details of a partnership in a hunting business....which would also be enforceable for an American absentee owner. Thoughts? _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | ||
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My biggest concern would be in south africa, the continual push for land expropriation. If the government decides to confiscate the land and turn it over to local indigenous people, while you might get money back it court, it would kill any profit. I’d consider it if I was going to snowbird there and be physically present a part of a year, but as an investment it would be… dubious. If you want to get in to the hunting business, that might make sense, in order to put your foot in the water, but while I thought about it, cooler heads prevailed. To me the risk is the unacceptable part; per my accountant this would also create a bunch of additional reporting with the IRS, which will likely increase audit risk. Not the exact legalities but my opinion, as of about 6-7 years ago. | |||
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I hadn't thought about this....very valid concern. _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
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Garry Kelly told me years ago to never invest any money in Africa that you could not afford to loose. It was sage advise. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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When discussing RSA there are several things to consider 1) They’re Communists 2) They’re corrupt 3) They’re incompetent 4) They’re racists (Anti white) Not unlike the Biden administration Jesus saves, but Moses invests | |||
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Thanks for chiming in guys....all your points are well taken, and confirm my suspicions about it being a risky undertaking. _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
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No chance! Why? The current and I am sure, the future government. | |||
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Reporting foreign bank accounts is a nightmare. | |||
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If your an American with property in RSA, no matter how much coin you put in the SA bank, you'll see very little of it sent or brought to the USA. Sooner than later you will be forced into partnership with an indigenous "partner" who as history has proven, knows well how to skin the white man. There are ways to invest, but I would avoid ownership like the plague. Our kinship struggle with enough problems already. LDK Gray Ghost Hunting Safaris http://grayghostsafaris.com Phone: 615-860-4333 Email: hunts@grayghostsafaris.com NRA Benefactor DSC Professional Member SCI Member RMEF Life Member NWTF Guardian Life Sponsor NAHC Life Member Rowland Ward - SCI Scorer Took the wife the Eastern Cape for her first hunt: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6881000262 Hunting in the Stormberg, Winterberg and Hankey Mountains of the Eastern Cape 2018 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4801073142 Hunting the Eastern Cape, RSA May 22nd - June 15th 2007 http://forums.accuratereloadin...=810104007#810104007 16 Days in Zimbabwe: Leopard, plains game, fowl and more: http://forums.accuratereloadin...=212108409#212108409 Natal: Rhino, Croc, Nyala, Bushbuck and more http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6341092311 Recent hunt in the Eastern Cape, August 2010: Pics added http://forums.accuratereloadin...261039941#9261039941 10 days in the Stormberg Mountains http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7781081322 Back in the Stormberg Mountains with friends: May-June 2017 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6001078232 "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading" - Thomas Jefferson Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running...... "If you're being chased by a Lion, you don't have to be faster than the Lion, you just have to be faster than the person next to you." | |||
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 USMC Retired DSC Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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I think it was 2012 I was flying into Zimbabwe for a hunt. Sitting next to me on the flight was a banker from the world bank. His advise was, if you have money that you did not need, it would be an investment that you would see no return on and after a bit you would lose it all. He suggested that you take that money and continue to hunt different locations. The other was there were safer countries around the world to invest money in. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "You've got the strongest hand in the world. That's right. Your hand. The hand that marks the ballot. The hand that pulls the voting lever. Use it, will you" John Wayne | |||
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Not sure how true this. But I was told as a foreigner you almost put a target on your back if you own a farm there. | |||
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Are you going to live there? There are all kinds of laws you need to look into. Do your homework on the people you are investing with as well as the neighboring land owners. Remember that all Dutchmen think that Americans and rich and stupid. I considered it back in 2014. Two things that made we walk away where land acquisitions and crime. You have to be one step ahead of the government and small enough to where they do not recognize your operation. If the government wants your land they will come up with a scheme to get it unless you are politically connected or willing to consistently give bribes. Crime. Natives will rob you blind and will steal anything but that is least of your concern. Farm murders happen and when they do you get tortured. I also would never feel comfortable with my wife and daughter living over there due to the amount of rape. If you have 250K to risk it would be fun. Make sure you budget your operation cost. I would love to have the labor force over here that they have. I met a tobacco farmer in Zimbabwe and he told me that he farms ten 25 acre plots as far as 100 miles away from one another to stay off the government radar. You also will need someone you trust to manage everything that also speaks Ndebele, Afrakans or Tswana depending on your location. I was looking at the North West Province. Here is another way to look at it! My family has been ranching and farming here in the US since the early 1700's. We had to fight many wars to keep everything and the future is uncertain. There are members of Congress that do not want individual Americans to own more than 15 acres of land. My ancestors went through hell to get over here and built something out of where we are living today. They are the ones that really had courage and did all the work. I will fight to the death to keep it. If I was single, did not own land here and did not have a family. I would take the risk. Some additional advice is to be certain to have a nice nest egg invested somewhere that would never get used on your RSA investment. | |||
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One of my partners in my old firm was South African. In 1990 he wanted to buy some land. He skipped South Africa bought 2200 acres high fenced in Nebraska with a elk snd buffalo hunting operation. The land in South Africa is up 5x and he has been struggling to sell the lsnd in Nebraska and the hunting opp makes little money. I personally would stay from South Africa hunting as it Is low margin high volume business. The land needs to be real cheap as it is up a lot since the historic lows. I know friends in Dubai snd Europe who own vacatIon home in SA. For me it if easier to just so spend money on hunting that getting involved in the hunting business to get a deal on hunting. Mike | |||
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Regarding the specific opportunity, half the 'game farms' in RSA are financially troubled and hundreds are for sale or up for auction. So this situation is not unique. And relying on the neighbor to manage your property is a special situation. The neighbor, at some level, is a competitor. If a client shows up to shoot a kudu, which farm do you think he will hunt most? And if he shoots a kudu, which farm did he actually shoot it on? And how exactly will the road and fence maintenance costs be split? Did that diesel fuel go into the farm Cruiser, or was the brother-in-law visiting and needed to "top off" his tank before heading back to town? More generally, as a South African native who has lived in the USA since 1982, I have given the idea of owning a hunting operation in Africa a lot of thought on and off over the years. Not only in South Africa, but in Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe and even Angola. I have friends on the ground in those countries so I am up to speed on the reality to the extent that an expat can be. Where I am today on this: South Africa is a no because of the worsening political outlook, rising crime and chaos, and plenty of competition; plus there is now no way to avoid paying a bunch of tax on the purchase, they have closed the loopholes. There are some areas eg the Karoo and Western Cape that are supposedly less risky, but even there the power goes out and the local municipality is run by a bunch of thieves. The ruling ANC is losing its grip on power and will do anything to hang on in the 2024 elections. At the same time the country is entering a food crisis. They have to pull something out of the hat. And that will be more promises of land and more taxes on those who have anything left to tax. Namibia has been a no for a long time because the government does not permit freehold ownership agricultural land by foreigners. "Absentee landlords" are not welcome in Namibia. You can get around this with various schemes eg minority ownership, but they have drawbacks that add to the risk. In addition, property crime is off the charts now in Namibia. Zimbabwe is a lost cause as far as property rights, that's already been proven. Can you spell "suicide"? It's not a functioning country and there is no favorable trend that I can discern. At one time I thought it might turn the corner when Bob left but no such deliverance. Angola is the wild west and the risks are off the chart. Seductive but rabidly communist. Botswana is the only one that I would consider. Foreigners can now own land there but you pay a stiff "transfer duty" that only applies to foreigners, and you never get that back. And then you still have the risk of trying to run an operation by email; at least it's a functioning country and it appears it will remain that way. I have looked at many opportunities in Botswana over the years and continue to do so, even if I am getting a bit long in the tooth for new ventures that will take decades to pay off. It's on my bucket list though and if some financial balls bounce in the right direction for me I may still take a shot. The problem is finding a reliable local partner who is willing to put real skin in the game. In one recent instance, a well known local character known to many on this forum promoted a hunting property aggressively, but when I offered him the opportunity to co-invest he disappeared in a cloud of dust. He also tried to sell me a property that "just came up" for 1.5x what it was listed at, locally. Two years later, it's still listed and the price has been dropped. There is a saying in Afrikaans that comes to mind: "Hoe ver van jou goed, hoe naby jou skade". The further away from your possessions you are, the closer you are to your losses. Never been more true than now. There is another saying, in English to keep in mind: "A fool and his money are soon parted". Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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Zimbabwe, I know 2 individuals who were guaranteed ownership. Both were Germans. They bought farms, and they got confiscated. | |||
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I have owned two properties in South Africa, a small 280 hectar farm not far from Kruger plus a wine estate in the Western Cape. No problems whatsoever. I‘m German. | |||
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I went through this some time ago and to start witih the land and facilites were great, the cost was fantastic..Had a lawyer look into it and found that I could buy it but if I sold it I could not take the money out of RSA...the other thing is they can and will confiscate your purchase because they just want it or don't want you to have it,,How do they do this, well a two bit general told me "because I can" I told him "Ill let you know if I buy any" He replied something to the effect that would be wise..Very disappointing...A PH and I considered a partnership and I would trust him on his word, but decided thats not good business so I passed..It had a nice home, a complete butchering barn, pens and chutes, stocked with lots of game and completely high fenced on beautiful rolling hills and canyons on a large acreage for $120,000 cash..about 1990ish..I can't tell you how much I wanted to buy it, but in the end I came to my senses,, Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I looked into buying a house in Arusha a few years back. It was a bargain by U.S. standards. After looking into it, I decided against it. I'll just pay the freight to hunt there. | |||
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There’s plenty of game ranches owned by foreigners or have a percentage owned by foreigners from royalty to government officials to the common man. As a hobby or if you had unlimited wealth, it’s fun to own a piece of a land.However, as an investment it’s a bad idea as the returns are minimal if not zero. Most of the replies on this thread are complete nonsense. The only person you should fear screwing you will be the outfitter/photographic guide you choose to make your partner. | |||
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How about owning a Flat or House on the Beach in South Africa. Are there risks involved for Foreigners ? Nec Timor Nec Temeritas | |||
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I was told that a foreigner is entitled to purchase immovable property much in the same manner as a South African citizen though it would be advisable to get a better insight from a legal source. The market is and has been for quite a while in firm favour of the buyer, which to me raises red flags as an investment from a resale or renting perspective. If on the other hand one is looking at a "hidey-hole" for the occasional dirty weekend then it might be cheaper to find something closer to home.  | |||
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Countless foreigners own flats and houses in SA, no risks involved. | |||
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You mean other than theft, murder, torture, and rape??  Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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The elephant in the room, in RSA, is "land reform". It does not go away and has a habit of showing up around election time. The last attempt to reform the constitution failed. So technically, the govt is still required to pay fair market value if a land claim is approved. However, one should keep in mind that it was not constitutional in Zim but they did it anyway. The govt has said they would take "unproductive" land first. But at the same time, they don't view game farming as particularly productive, they view it as a white man's dalliance. And the masses are "hungry" for land. It is an affront to the powers that be that 30 years after apartheid ended, most of the best land is still owned by the "invaders" who "stole" the land that is rightfully theirs. Residential property is another matter. Even in Zim, they didn't take that. I think you would be AOK buying a holiday home in RSA. There are of course the normal risks of property crime, perhaps higher if you are not there all the time. But as someone pointd out, they can't torture you if you are not there. Best of both worlds: There are many "share block" and condominium schemes where you get to own a home on a large game farm, you own the house and the 1 hectare that it sits on and you have joint ownership of the rest of the land and the game along with a bunch of other owners, but these schemes have lots of rules: generally no hunting allowed in those situations; no pets either. And there is of course a monthly assessment to pay for the upkeep which seems to run in the range of $250-750 a month. These houses are quite cheap to buy, circa R5 million ($330K) will buy a grand place on a large farm. But there is a reason there are a lot of these on the market. One should bear in mind that firearm ownership and hunting are tricky. If you are a non-resident, you will have to take your firearms along on each trip and bring them out when you leave. I don't think you can get a license as a part-year resident. Also, you are required to get a "letter of invitation" from a PH/outfitter to get the firearms permit if the stated purpose is hunting. Hunting is a gray area. Non-residents are not supposed to hunt without a PH. In practice, nobody is going to stop you hunting on your own land but you won't be able to export any trophies without a PH signing the paperwork. Finally note RSA taxes you on worldwide income, just like the USA, so don't think you retire down there and get away from the tax man. If you spend more than 91 days a year there, you are considered a resident for tax purposes. This is very aggressive by international standards. RSA also has a work permit requirement. You cannot have a job without a work permit. So if you set up a company to own your farm, and you think you can make some money off the hunting, don't plan to pay yourself a salary unless you get that work permit. You can pay yourself a dividend but that's subject to tax as well. In short, it's a minefield. Despite all this, yes, there are a many foreign-owned game farms in RSA so it can be done. Some of the biggest are foreign-owned. And there are a lot of foreign-owned holiday homes, mostly by Europeans for whom travel is a little easier. I am pretty sure you can get your money out when you sell, but you have to prove that you brought it in under the exchange control rules so you must document these transactions. And those rules could change. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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Yeah, they have to pay you "fair value" but they get to decide what the value is. | |||
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Thanks for your proper clarification Nec Timor Nec Temeritas | |||
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As a South African I can say that sadly I would not recommend buying a game farm here. As mentioned by other contributors, the risk to property rights is real and the Government uses the "land issue" to generate votes and to flog the (declining) white population every election. A game farm would be more risky than an apartment (condo) or similar dwelling. If you had spare cash that didn't matter then go for it but recognise that it cannot be managed from afar unless you have "boots on the ground". Your fencing, animals and any infrastructure would soon be stolen/poached/vandalised in short order if an active physical presence was not maintained. Other posters have good advice when they recommend spending the money on hunts rather than putting it into a game farm. I still miss the farm I owned but we were not resident on it and it was a two hour drive away. Eventually common sense dictated a sale even though the heart said otherwise. JB | |||
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When I read in South African newspapers the total dismemberment of the South African railway system, to scrap thieves, that tells me that is a country to stay away from. I don't have a direct link to the article I read, but railway tracks ripped out, including the cross ties, and sold for scrap. Worse apparently are the copper electrical cables for electric trains. Extensive cable thefts and looting halts South African rail services https://www.railjournal.com/in...rican-rail-services/ South Africa's railways: How thieves have destroyed the network https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-60202570 The train stops here https://www.news24.com/news24/...-stops-here-20220518 I talked to a former South African this March, she said until black take over, South Africa was well run. But now, corruption, tribalism has ruined the place. And she made an comparison to the same process that the liberal Democrats are doing to America! | |||
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That lady is in desperate need of a psychiatrist. | |||
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Perfectly said and all true Victor Watson Karoo Wild Safaris Email: info@karoowildsafaris.co.za Cell: (+27) 721894588 www.karoowildsafaris.co.za | |||
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You do know that the main financial supporters of the ANC government are whites and indians? Agriculture, mining, textiles banking, media etc are still controlled by the whites/indians. The two biggest corruption cases in the last 5 years was orchestrated by the whites and Indians. RSA is definitely NOT the land of milk and honey but it sure is far off from what most posters say. | |||
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In the right areas ( Clifton Beach, Camps bay etc to name a few) theres no issue. I would say majority of those properties are foreign owned or foreigners have a stake. Property prices are similar to rest of the world in those areas. I doubt that even 0.01% of the population can afford to live there. | |||
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I am sure she would say the same to anyone who suggested moving back to South Africa. | |||
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When I was growing up, we had a place on the beach at Plettenberg Bay. Didn't realize it at the time but this was heaven on earth. Far away from any big cities and no population of indigenes to speak of. Biggest worry was getting a sunburn. Today, not so much. It's a bit of a political hotspot. There have been cases of arson, rioting, and general antisocial behavior. Mobs have shut down the main highway more than once with burning tyres etc. So buying a place on the beach is not without its problems. Even in the Cape. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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To answer the original question: No. Almost did, however, about 17 years back. | |||
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21 years ago I was in escrow to buy a 2500 acre high fence game set up and running as a bow hunting farm. Nice accommodations and 2 fully stocked dams. 2 weeks before closing I was diagnosed with stage 4 non Hodgkin’s lymphoma Told I had 8-9 years to live. I contacted the landowner and backed out of the deal. He kindly refunded my deposit and wished me well.Today I’m cured and doing well. Never thought I would be glad about cancer but it was a blessing in disguise! Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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There are many other countries in the world with better beaches and less crime than South Africa. RSA would not be my go to place for a beach home. | |||
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This is a little case study in the failure of democracy. For when nobody wants to invest in your country, even from a pretty risk-tolerant audience, then you have elected the wrong government. And this is the blind spot of socialists all around the world. They take investors for granted. And why no socialist society will prosper, ever. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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