Overall booking (%) for PG due to the economy?

Just CURIOUS...

What has been seen for 2009?

What are most people speculating for 2010?

What have Safari Operators and PH's been saying?

I hope my finances will allow for one soon, but it doesn't look to promising as of today...

well for interest sake, luis sier in argentina says his books were about 2/3 full this year and he was happy with that

I would be ECSTATIC with that, too!!!

Thanks for sharing!

Not plains game but related. I talked to a couple of Rocky Mountain outfitters and a couple of guys who book in Canada and they say that their 2009 booking were down about 30% but their 2010 bookings are down over 60%!

Hey Frank,

Thanks for the eye-opener ...

I had been speculating these type of numbers across the board...and decided to post just to find out, just what is so...namely Africa PG, but of course Big Game Hunting in general as well...Thanks, I'll be watching for what others got to say here too...

My usual PH says that business seems to be better than ever for both PG & DG -- and, based on how busy he and his crew seem to be, I believe him.

I don't know about anyone else, but even with the economy suffering, I'm hunting more than ever, while I can, and in anticipation that our wrong-headed government will inevitably ensure that things get worse and worse for as long as they have the power to do so. I'm too old to wait for the public to wake up, elect more rational government and give them time to undo the damage. That could take decades -- I'm hunting now, while the opportinity still exists.

quote:

Originally posted by OldHandgunHunter:
My usual PH says that business seems to be better than ever for both PG & DG -- and, based on how busy he and his crew seem to be, I believe him.

Better than ever!...Wow!
That PH must be doing something right...GOOD on Him...

quote:

I'm too old to wait...I'm hunting now, while the opportinity still exists.

No doubt I would be doing the same if I had the $$$$$'s too...GOOD on you!

Congrats to you BOTH!!!

Sounds like whistling past the grave yard to me.

Wonder if the same guys that said there will be no deals and book now, will be saying the same thing at the show?

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:
Sounds like whistling past the grave yard to me.

Hmmm....Now that you mention it...I'll revise my statement and say, I, too, do AGREE... CONGRATS!

My apologies OGH if you didn't understand the meaning of my original statement! My choice of words weren't all too great I reckon...

quote:

Originally posted by jeff h:
Wonder if the same guys that said there will be no deals and book now, will be saying the same thing at the show?

I'm wondering quite the same myself...I don't know and thought to post this discussion just this morning...

Maybe some others will chime in...

I'll believe the US part when prices drop a bit.

Rich

I am afraid a lot of people are going to be shocked in 2010, and not in a good way. I hope I am wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
I am afraid a lot of people are going to be shocked in 2010, and not in a good way. I hope I am wrong.

Shocked in what way?

quote:

Originally posted by cmfic1:

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
I am afraid a lot of people are going to be shocked in 2010, and not in a good way. I hope I am wrong.

Shocked in what way?

The Lack of bookings and/or canceled hunts

Guys,

You guys have taken pot shots at me everytime a discounted hunt showed up because I said the last convention season was great for us and I didn't see all the predicted discounts coming down the pike. Also I said to get a great hunt you need to book ahead. Well the '09 season is winding down in southern Africa and there have been some discounts and I've offered some but no long established safari companies gave anything away on their prime areas. In fact I was a little surprised at the lack of willingness to negotiate. Of the companies we regularly represent only one offered across the board reductions in daily rates and not on their prime area. One other company did discount a specific hunt that was not selling but that was it.

I guess what I'm saying is if you are a hunter who has to plan his vacations ahead and wants a good safari with good dates for the game he wants to hunt waiting around for a "Deal" is silly. A "deal" is only a "deal" if you can take advantage of it. If you have an open schedule and can go at a moment's notice that's terrific and regardless of the economy you will be able to do a lot at less money. unfortunately there just are not that many folks that can do that.

With the stock market rebounding significantly '10 may very well offer less bargains than '09. If you want a good safari for '10 book it now and get what you want. A lot of '10 quota is gone already.

Mark

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
I am afraid a lot of people are going to be shocked in 2010, and not in a good way. I hope I am wrong.


Shocked in what way?

Rod

I watch the liberal media talking about "the recession ended in July/August". I personally feel that the hardest part of the recession lies ahead, especially for Americans. I feel the dollar will continue to drop which will force foreign service companies (safari operators) to refigure their rates which will have a negative effect on bookings. I feel after 2009 that hunting companies will tighten their "deposit policies" and understandably so. I feel their is a whole sector of this economy who have been holding their breath financially and are starting to turn blue, and these people are convincing themselves and others that it is almost over, and for them it is, just not the way they think. It is going to be very interesting to see what happens at the shows and I am not an expert, but I am counting on more anemia. I think the ph's that I know anything about have done an excellent job of mitigating the damage in 2009, however, I think that you would be hard pressed to find one (who has a grasp of his companies numbers) that could honestly say that they have not been effected by this economy. Just my $.02

Mark, your right some of us including me have been poking a little fun of you and your stern warning of "Book now or miss out". I remember telling you I would remind you of this if I was right, and you could do the same for me.
I booked a last min. leopard hunt in Zambia in Aug. Took a leopard and Roan trophy fee included
under $15,000. Hunted with Alister Norton. Roan scored No.19 green score with a rifle.
I will agree with you on one point. You have to be able to take advantage and travel on short notice. Some can some can't.

I don't know what the new year will bring but I am betting since last year booking was off for most, and lots DG hunt book a year or two in advance.
By my thinking, their may be more discounts if booking are not off the carts at the shows.

Safari prices are like anything else, supply has to meet demand, and when 21 day hunt reach 100 grand, the bubble may have burst.

quote:

Originally posted by jeff h:
I will agree with you on one point. You have to be able to take advantage and travel on short notice. Some can some can't

Unfortunately, I'm one of the ones that can't. I'm always envious of those that scoop up those last minute specials.

On the 100,000 plus market- As this breaks down it may actually provide opportunity for the "masses". I'm one of the guys Mark is talking about: who HAS to arrange trips at least a year out. I long for the day to book on the moment...

Well guys, this is how I see it, and I've spoken with many outiftters here in the US and Africa. Prices are coming down, I get emails everyday from outfitters/booking agents of prices that have just been slashed on hunts, especially mid-west hunts, mule deer/bears/deer are all down. African stuff is down too...during my last trip in August-Sept 09 speaking with my outfitter, there have been quite a few farms that closed up because of lack of revenue. To quote someone from earlier, the Bubble has burst... the last 20 yrs have been the golden yrs for the super wealthy to hunt. And guess what, they have!!! I'm fortunate to know some of the biggest hunters in the world, and one of them, doesn't give a shit about africa anymore. Why? Because he's got a pride of lions mounted, and a wall of buffs, and everything else.

Concerning the current age of most people who can afford to hunt africa, if the african prices don't come down, they will effectively price out generations of hunters to come. I'm a member of SCI and HSC and the scariest thing about it, I'm the youngest in the room. I'm 25. The same goes for hunting here in the states. We are going to see a serious change in the tides, because the young people of this world don't hunt anymore. 1 reason, dad can't afford to take them!

I know this might start a fire blow of replies, and I'm sure you guys have kids and grandkids that hunt, but we are not the majority anymore. More kids know how to get the magic whistle to lead to the dragon cave on a video game than what a deer is these days.

Well Mark, you have also told me that I am always looking to get a great deal at the lowest price. I elk hunt with a guy who charges me 5K for a 7 day hunt, packstring and all in Idaho. Last year I shot a 330 class bull. He doesn't use booking agents, because his repeat business is steady (incl me). I went on a great hunt two years ago in BC. I almost booked at the last minute, but instead I negotiated a deal for the next year. Shot a 60 inch moose. This year I bought a 21 day hunt at the last minute for 29K. Shot the big four in 8 days. That was with Luke Samaras. Fantastic hunt, fantastic deal. I met a guy in the industry on the that hunt who told me you can ALWAYS cut a deal with operators (he is an outfitter in Africa, BTW).

Here is what I have learned about hunting in Africa: your success most importantly hinges on the talents of your PH (obviously there has to be game in the area). The cost of the hunt has very little to do with it.

You are right about going at the minute: every year there are great deals, good economy or poor.

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
...during my last trip in August-Sept 09 speaking with my outfitter, there have been quite a few farms that closed up because of lack of revenue. To quote someone from earlier, the Bubble has burst...

I've heard things mentioned by several global economist that this is only the beginning of THE BEGINNING despite what most in the private sector might say...

Its very unfortunate to hear that some farms have already shut down operations...

I think we're all headed for TOUGH TIMES ahead of us, bar-none...

AAZ

I congratulate your great success but you are by far not the average guy. You do have flexibility in your schedule and obviously some cash that you can dip into when the need arises. You are the guy that can jump on a short notice opportunity and more power to you. The average guy has to plan his vacations ahead and often times cannot put his hands on all the cash necessary at one time let alone pay top dollar for airline fares.

Your friend in the business does not deal with the same people we do or we are doing something very wrong.

Here's what I've learned. A great PH is only as good as the area he has to hunt. A great area can make a mediocre PH look like a hero.

BTW Congrats on a great safari in Tanzania. Great bag!

Mark

Mark:

I hunted once with a PH would had never hunted the area. Showed up the night before I did. Couldn't estimate trophies worth a hoot. I will take a good PH in an OK area long before a good area and a poor PH.

The guy I mentioned is pretty famous; I am sworn to secrecy, so I can't say who it is.

Unlike the airline industry, the discounts don't come when you book way out; they come at the last minute.

Jeff Blair told me at the NRA show he stopped trying to sell some lion hunts (famous Zambian operator; we all know who that is) at fabulous prices because he just couldn't sell them.

The problem with having cash now is that everything is on sale. Real estate, stocks (although maybe not so much now), even new employees can all be had for unheard of prices. And so are hunts. But hunts are now competing for other deals that say "buy me!"

I will say there is one disadvantage to a discount hunt: half the fun is the planning and anticipation. But the solution to that problem is getting your brain wrapped around certain hunts and being prepared to go.

And like I said: once you pay the TFs, your percent savings is not 50%, although in our case it did keep the hunt from going over 100k. To me there is a huge phsychological barrier for 100K hunts. Call it "fear of conspicous consumption."

Thanks for the congrats. I got lucky too. Never underestimate the value of luck. But hey, you haven't been doing too bad yourself lately. I will give you this: you hunt the areas you book. Not a bad thing at all.

I believe oryx hunter is right. The people we have hunted with in africa say the average hunter on a safari not paid for by his parents is probably 55 or older. This includes european and south american clients.

If this is anywhere near correct, it would be catastrophic to lose this generation by pricing them out of the market since by definition you will lose many of the next generation. Most of us had mentors that we followed or accompanied to the hunting fields of africa.

Adrian,

Anyone know the stats of European hunters vs US hunters in the last 5 years to African hunting destinations like Namibia or South Africa by any chance?

I would think US influx had been really high for the past few years...

It may better reflect some changes after this year is out to get a better handle on the actual numbers for that matter...

Thanks in advance!

Bookings are up 114% this year and next year, even better!!!

Book now so as not to be disappointed.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
and one of them, doesn't give a shit about africa anymore. Why? Because he's got a pride of lions mounted, and a wall of buffs, and everything else.

QUOTE]

IMHO, he missed the point. I've never enjoyed being in a camp with a "collector".

The overall numbers of hunters in the US has been on a steady decline for decades. At the same time the spending on hunting has RISEN.

This seems to be out of line until you really think about it. The baby boomers are in their peak earning years and have been willing to spend money on hunts.

The problem for the hunting industry is that the health of these aging hunters as well as their finacial ability to pay for these hunts is at the tail end. We have seen the peak and will continue to see decreases going forward.

So who is on deck to replace these boomers? Nobody, and that is the problem. There simply are not nearly as many hunters in the generation behind them. I should know, I'm not a baby boomer or an echo boomer.

On the bright side I do believe the popularity of bow hunting and the wide spread distribution of hunting programs will be the hunting industries savior. There will be a 10-20 year down period between the end of the baby boomers hunting and the start of these "new" bow hunters getting the itch and the finacial ability to hunt big game around the world.

.02$

Good discussion Ro,
Most, if not all foreign outfitters have definitely been negatively affected by the economy, especially from the American hunting sectors. Bookings this year were significantly lower. Fortunately for many foreign outfitters, the Europeans have helped fill in the gaps.

Some of my foreign outfitters have started to discount hunts for next year, some have not.

Geoff

quote:

Originally posted by geoff:
Good discussion Ro,
Most, if not all foreign outfitters have definitely been negatively affected by the economy, especially from the American hunting sectors. Bookings this year were significantly lower. Fortunately for many foreign outfitters, the Europeans have helped fill in the gaps.

Some of my foreign outfitters have started to discount hunts for next year, some have not.

Geoff

Thanks Uncle,

I was hoping you would chime in soon and share your experiences for 2009/2010...I've seen you offering a few DEALS here from your African outfitters and been wondering if they've been selling...

Lots of purported deals in the Discounted Hunt Forum here, but it doesn't seem most are being taken advantaged of...in other words, many views, but NO responses.

Thought I'd start a disussion as I was curious of the climate of the industry in general and what others were experiencing.

Yes Ro,
Lots of lookers but very few inquiries and only a couple of takers. This is the sign of the times. It's sad to see from earlier posts that some farms have actually closed down their hunting operations due to the lack of clients.

I have heard that there are up to 5,000 game farms in Namibia. How many are actively hunting, I don't know. With that large number, the fallout should be substantial if the 5,000 number is even close.

Next year and 2011 Namibia should present some very attractive offerings to hunters. On the other hand, the base reference currency is the Euro there. The U.S.D. vs. Euro exchange rate is becoming worse for us. Even if the hunts are discounted, we will have to pay more $ for a good bargain. I would not want to speculate what our dollar will be worth next year and 2011.

However, if the Namibian outfitter seeks American business, he will lock in his prices in U.S.D. when offering hunts to Americans and speculate on the future currency exchange.

Geoff

Well my brother then lets just go to Niihau, camp out on the beach, and bust pigs for a few days.

Mike,

If there's room in your folks camp I'd like to get over there next season, too!!!...

Its on my HIGH list for sure...

Can't provide the stats you are looking for my friend, but in South Africa the number of visitors hunting from foreign shores have doubled in the last 4 years.

I believe Namibia is even better off.

I have given up to make predictions about the global economy. People still drive nice cars and
and live well. Not nearly as bad as the 30's.

We have taken a knock this year, and bookings were down about 30%. Next year however, with CONFIRMED bookings, looks a lot more rosier with us.

We hunt mostly with Swedish, British and of course, American clients.

quote:

If there's room in your folks camp I'd like to get over there next season, too!!!...

Its on my HIGH list for sure...

A wise Decision, You will enjoy it "For Sure"

quote:

Originally posted by larrys01:

quote:

If there's room in your folks camp I'd like to get over there next season, too!!!...

Its on my HIGH list for sure...

A wise Decision, You will enjoy it "For Sure"

Larry,

I've heard soo much about it from Uncle that I've been wanting to go real bad, but had to cancel last year as my 19 y.o. son and I went to Namibia with him to hunt PG instead...Paying for two has been tough on me and the wife, however its been extremely rewarding!

However, now that he's older and has a good paying job I have more $$$$'s to spare...

I'll definitely get the most WHACK for my $$$$'s there...

And Opihis on the fire....

As a "Late-Bloomer" to sport hunting I would love to spend some quality time around the kiawe fire with you seasoned veterans.

It would be an honor...

Uncle's coming over this week with some pupus and we'll seriously talk about it for sure!

Aloha!

Ro



.

LB
I can relate to what you are saying. I took my 14 year old grandson to Namibia last year on a Trophy/Plains Game Hunt. Some of the best money I ever spent.
Larry

Aloha Mike and Ro,
Whacking pigs on Niihau is always a good option and still available. Pick the dates from June thru Sept. and we can start firming up the group.

Don't want to hijack this thread so we can communicate by PM or direct email.

Geoff