The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Why not push feeds?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Why not push feeds? | Login/Join |
| one of us |
Controlled feeding was designed to compensate for operator deficeincy. The original operators being 18 year old boys who would receive most of their rifle training en route to the front lines. The situation at the time required the shooter to fire repeatedly up, down, upside-down, sidewise, etc. in rain, snow, mud, sand.... Under these conditions the CRF is not such a bad idea. If you have to fire 5 rounds in 5 seconds while simultaneously doing about a dozen other things (including wetting ones britches), then the odds of short or double stroking the bolt are pretty high. But, in a hunting environment where a second shot is only a possibility, use the action with which you have the most proficeincy and confidence. Even the Army has proven that proper training is the best guarantee and today uses a push-feed to hunt the most dangerous game of all. Push feed rifle actions are not unreliable, it is the actions of the shooter under stress that are unreliable, myself included. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
I see more pushfeeds fail than I do control feed every year without fail...I will use only control feed rifles...I let GAHunter and his coharts use the pushfeeds and the Remington Rifles.. I will continue to use the Mausers and the Win. M-70...Try running 30 or 40 yards and keeping your eye on a disapearing Buff while opening and closing the action and very often the round will simply fall out of the pushfeed rifle and you will close on an empty chamber, then hear the loudest snap that you have ever heard when the shot presents itself.. Sorry but I am extremely anti pushfeed, but I don't require anyone else to agree with me...Use whatever you want, its your personal choice and like most decisions we must all live with them, or die with them. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
My personal choice is a Mauser or Mannlicher-Schoenauer, both controlled feeds. However, I would not feel doomed with a quality push feed, such as a Sako or Heym. I would just have to spend more time rifle-proofing the idiot instead of idiot-proofing the rifle. ------------------ | |||
|
| <GAHUNTER> |
Ray, I was just asking why, and you told me. Now, what about my situation where I have an Ultra Mag action crying to be customized into a nice rifle? Remember, I will hunt DG once, maybe twice in my life. I'm not a PH, and would never expect one to carry a push-feed rifle. | ||
|
one of us |
Actually, a pushfeed Model 700 will feed upside down. Try it and you might be surprised. One of the other features that I like though about CRF is that you can have a coned-breech that just guides those babies right up there. ~Jeff | |||
|
| one of us |
quote: Question... how many of these failures have you wittnessed resulted in deaths? ~~~Suluuq | |||
|
one of us |
quote: :d ------------------ | |||
|
| <hsp223> |
In partial answer to your second question. The RUM cartridge is based on the 404 Jeffery case with some minor differences. The rim is turned down to allow the RUM cartridges to fit the bolt face of the 700. The shoulder angle is different as well. I forget the OAL of the cartridge as well as the length of the large 700 action and don't know if they are compatable with the 404 (if not then it is not worth messing with). At the very least you will have to open up the bolt face and toy with the extractor. Get a new barrel or have your factory barrel set back if possible. I don't know, it just doesnt seem worth the trouble, at least for me. | ||
|
| <buffalo_buster> |
I think I read somewhere that Reminton actions don't have enough metal in the bolt rim to accomodate the original .404 J cartridge. My suggestion would be to get a CZ or a Mark X mauser action and build the rifle on that. Magnum length Mark X action sells for around $300 and even if you are getting a remington for less money, by the time you will get done with the rifle the difference in price will only buy you 10 factory loaded .404 J rounds. BB | ||
|
| one of us |
As an interesting side note to this, during the PH marksmanship testing all sorts of Rifles were used by aspiring PH's with every level of experience. One of the instructors kept note of the stress fire performance of the various types of rifles used. The test required 3 shots under ten seconds into a 4" square at distances from 10 yards to 50 yards, three different targets, with a crowd of people watching you! Nothing under 30 caliber could be used. The interesting part of this test to the instructor was the amount of failures, not from the accuracy potential of the shooter, but of the failure of the rifles. It was his conclusion that the operator error of the rifle was the main factor in not completing the marksmanship requirement. Not the shooting skill itself( which is difficult enough without the gun troubles). These operator errors were in a large part due to the short stroking of the action under the stress of the crowd watching and the time constraint of the drill itself. His opinion was that even a CRF could be short stroked but it would not jam the rifle up. Allowing the shooter (with some composure)enough time to complete the test and pass. He was a strong spokeman against the use of the push feed design (as backup)for this reason. During my Examination period I did not witness a single failure of a rifles action to cycle but did see a rifle fail to fire on two occasions. It was a Push feed rifle by coincidence. Anybody can sit and load dummy rounds through a push feed at every angle and cycle them all day long without a failure. The problem seems to arise when the stress of shooting accurately under a time constraint comes into play. For some reason the brain can only multiprocess so many things at one time. The act of cycling the bolt back the correct distance before shoving it forward is the one part that breaks down. I suppose the Mauser folks figured this out a long time ago. Why else would they have put so much effort into developing the CRF rifle? The Push Feed rifle was at the time cheap to manufacture by comparision. It's why the Pre64 was dropped by Winchester, way to costly to manufacture without the current CNC technology. To have the added expense of the CRF when done by Mauser was due in a large part to the problems people have with stress fire situations in Military or with Dangerous game. I have sat and tried to make a Push feed jam and fail at silly angles, I could not. I don't think I can replicate the "stress fire" while testing the action at home or on the range. There are things that happen in a human brain that cannot be replicated in a simple field exercise with out the stress. Yet I have seen it happen several times to clients when hunting. Once the dust settled they would say to me later. "I have never had this rifle do that before". It's an almost scripted reply to the problem from every one of them. None have ever seen it happen, none could make it happen. Yet under the stress of the moment the action feeds two shells into the chamber at one time and they get so jammed the bolt cannot be pulled back without complete loss of control or the situation. Another huge benifit to the CRF design is the safety. The Mauser and Winchester design actually locks the firing pin from moving. Carrying a loaded and chambered rifle is a whole lot safer with that design then the simple "trigger block" of the push feed design. The trigger block makes me nervous to be honest with you. Having had clients guns fire with an "AD" and them being so shook up over it for days(not to mention I was as well) stays with you for a long time. I fully understand everyone of you guys who write that the Push feed will never jam on you and has never jammed you in plenty of years, and is just as good as any CRF. However the proof shows otherwise when the chips are down and the stress of the moment is upon you. Mauser solved a human deficiency in bolt rifles. I doubt it was because he thought it was a "nice looking design". He did it because humans have trouble under real stress! Anyhow that's my thoughts on the whole CRF VS PF debate. You should use what your happy with, I have no personal gain from any choice you make. I however own all Model 70 CRF rifles, and will likely always own them for the reasons stated above. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
GA, Personally I would trade the Ultra Mag action for a Mod 70 or 98 Mauser or sell it to one of these consenters on this board, they seem to like them very much...but thats just my call.. Sullugg, Silly me, I have never had an opertunity to fire either a pushfeed or a control feed gun upside down..I suppose one could hang by his knees from a limb and shoot Buffalo if he was so inclined, but its not really very practical, I can jam a pushfeed easily enough shooting stright up. As I said I am not a pushfeed fan, I consider them an abortion of the bean counters economics and of poor design, with weak extractors..again I do not enforce my will on others, I merely state MY opinnion. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
JJHACK, you just threw a monkey wrench into the works! In your previous message concerning the RSA PH exam, you said that it was three shots at ranges from 10 to 30 yards, now it's 10 to 50 yards? I need a longer range! I made my own "PH exam" range. Instead of black square on white backing, I cut 4" squares out of 1" plywood, and painted them black. I set them on posts (sawed-off trees) from 15 to 30 yards. Tried it for the first time Saturday evening with my Mod 70 Classic Stainless 375H&H, but it was getting dark (I could not see one of the squares in the shadows, just held the crosshairs above the post). Got two out of three in 11.X seconds both times, but my girlfriend was not familiar with the stopwatch - "It was ABOUT 11.2 seconds...."???? I think that I lost most of my time on the first target. GREAT practice, Thanks! Bill | |||
|
| one of us |
Bill, your correct it was 30 yards for the timed test event. There are several marksmanship tests to get a passing grade, this was only one of them. The Timed test was 30,20, and 10 yards, in under 10 seconds. One shot each into the 4" square. The targets are right and left side requiring you to swing the rifle back and forth to hit them. They are not always in the same sequence of Right, left, right, either. Sometimes you have to look for them. Quite an interesting event. If you have not tried it, it makes for a very humbling experience. I have never seen anyone do it with a rifle bigger then 375HH. Recoil recovery takes way to long on guns bigger then that in my opinion. With my Lott I could probably do it in under 15 seconds but I doubt three shots that well placed in under 10 seconds. The fastest time I know of with hundreds of people and attempts was 6.9 seconds with a .308 rifle. If you add in the additional recoil effect from guns bigger then a 375HH and realize you have only 3 more seconds. I would like to meet the guy who could pull it off. He would forever have my respect!jj ------------------ | |||
|
| One of Us |
Push feed? No class. | |||
|
one of us |
I will plainly state I do not like Remington rifles. This is only an opinion. Out of all of our clients the push feed guns I have never seen fail are: Blaser r 93 I do not believe in playing with ones life shooting dangerous game with a push feed gun. On plains game they are fine, take a proper rifle to shoot dangerous animals. I have heard too often that some of these Mausers and doubles are too expensive. This may be true, however think of the price and all other variables you have to conquer. Do not take chances with your hardware | |||
|
| one of us |
Thanks JJHACK, That would be real tough to hit 4" square at 50 yards in the timed event, it's hard enough at 10, 20, 30! I've had my girlfriend "practice" with the stopwatch, and I hope to try it again this evening with better light. You're right, it is humbling. I WILL practice this until I can do it on a regular basis, but that could take a while. I had assumed that this timed event was the only shooting test. What were the other "practical" tests? Any moving targets? I'd bet that they are all challenging! Bill | |||
|
| one of us |
My concern with Remington is that all of their rifles were designed to be inexpensive. I would consider this to be a flaw even if they made a controlled feed. If a hunter is willing to spend several thousand dollars on a hunt, why would he not spend an equal amount on a foolproof rifle. At least the rifle can be sold afterwards, the trip cannot. Economy should not be a factor in the design of Firearms, Parachutes or Contraceptives. | |||
|
one of us |
I have a Sako 375, Remington 30.06 and Winchester 70 300 win all push feeds. All have been used to take game and all have never failed. I have a Mauser 30.06 that failed in the field and it is a CRF. The Mauser failed because the gunsmith that made it did a poor job not because of the design. I guess any design can have problems if not done right and any design can break. If you are comfortable with a rifle and have had enough time shooting it in various conditions why not use a pushfeed. By the way when it came time to buy a dangerous game rifle I read all the CRF versus push feed stuff and thought the best way to go was CRF so I ordered a Winchester in 416. Then I read some more and cancelled the Model 70 and bought a 470 double. No feed problems for that second shot. BigB | |||
|
| one of us |
/ | |||
|
| <GAHUNTER> |
Well, this is all accademic anyway, since I have just found our from my gunsmith (who loves all things Remington) that opening up the bolt face on a 700 to accomodate the Jeffery round would be unwise. That's why Remington rebated the rim on the Jeffery case when they created the Ultra Mags. Since I have an Ultra mag action, He thinks I shoud just go ahead and make it into a 375 Ultra Mag, which about equals the Jeffery in terminal energy. (This was the reason I acquired the action in the first place.) This I may do, but it still will not stop my yearning for a 404 Jeffery! But for all you Remington haters out there, I'll leave you with this quote from Jarrett Rifles, a well known and respected custom manufactuer. (Their standard caliber rifles go from three to five grand and are guaranteed 1/2 MOA accuracy.): "Remington is our first choice in a factory receiver and here's why! It's round so it is structurally the strongest and lends itself best to the machine work to make it mechanically correct. It also has the fastest across the counter lock time which is a necessity for accuracy. It also has the greatest selection of after-market parts to make it better, such as triggers, mounts, etc. "On receivers we don't use, there are good reasons, believe me. They are Mausers, Springfields or any other old military receivers. We also don't use Sako, Browning or Ruger receivers." Similar comments can be found on just about any custom maker's web site. They may be cheap, but Damn they shoot good! | ||
|
| one of us |
Interesting there is no mention of Winchester in there "we don't use" catagory. Those folks have likely forgotten more about accuracy then I will ever know. So who am I to argue that issue! I would however like to comment on the CRF-DG aspect. A 2" group at 100 yards is pin point accuracy for that duty. No matter how accurate a custom gun maker can produce a rifle, once two shells are fighting for the single available hole in the chamber, accuracy is not gonna matter. When you consider the size of the game we are after and the typical distances (regarding Afrcia) prairie dog rifle accuracy is not a concern for me, function of the feed and eject in a panic is! I have in the past owned a push feed Winchester and I have hunted with many Remington owners who have never had any trouble. One of my favorite rifles in the world was an old Sako Push feed in 375HH. So I understand the lure of the push feed and the debate from both sides. Having used them both and worked with countless clients using both, I'll stick with the CRF rifles for my remaining days afield.jj | |||
|
| one of us |
quote: GAHunter, Jarrett is highly respected among beanfield, and target shooters,hell, I have an old Mannlicher-Shoenauer MCA 61, that has over 5000 rounds of HOT handloads fired through it, and it will shoot i/2" groups all day, and it is as it came from the factory, and didn't need to be emproved. I can guarentee you, you will not find one Jerrett's rifles in the heavy bush carried by a PH or a client hunter of Cape Buffalo. Additionally you can read his brochures and draw any meaning you want, about the quality of Rimington actions. But if you will look at what he said, instead of what you wanted to think he said, you will see, something different. The reason they use them is they are cheap, they are nothing but a piece of 4140 waterpipe, and it takes no skill the turn something, that is already round, on a lathe. his claim that the 700 is the strongest of the bolt actions available to him, is bunk, plain, and simple. Why wouldn't Jerrett claim his choices in componants are the best, he is SELLING them, for goodness sake! The reason he doesn't use the Mod 70, Mauser, or Ruger, has absolutely nothing to do with srength, but his profit margin. He knows his rifles will never be in a life or death sittuation, because paper targets or an occasional whitetail, isn't going to test his product for anything other than accuracy! If you want the real story on what makes a real DGR, ask the poeple who use them on a regular basis, not someone who is trying to sell you something! To gain anything from that question, however, you must be willing to listen! So far this hasn't been the case! A cape buffalo cares nothing for the difference in a 1/2" group, and a 1" group, all he cares about is that you shot him with it. Now if you are in DGR range, it will make little difference if the rifle is capable of 1/2" groups, he is going to come over, and talk to you about it, Now ask yourself if you have the balls to stay calm enough to work that push feed 1/2" beanfield rifle, and not jam it before a Buffalo sticks a horn up your butt! The CRF is the insuance policy against a case of "DUMB ASS", getting you killed. It isn't the rifle that fails, it is the shooter, and as someone said above, CRF simply shooter proofs the rifle, rather than rifle proofing the shooter. It is human error that causes the jam in the pushfeed, and the CRF feature simply negates that possibility. ------------------ | |||
|
| One of Us |
Remingtons are surely accurate. But they are push feed. | |||
|
| one of us |
GA, Jarrets statement has little value where I hunt. It is an opinnion only on his part and quite argueable. As to assesories avalable there are more triggers, Safties, bottom metals,sights, etc. available for the Mod 98 Mauser than any other action on the market. Mausers are the best from a standpoint of a DGR, they feed better, the round is not loose in the case of a double working of the bolt, and they extract bad loads when things go south. Accuracy is really academic, within reason, on DGRs.... Pushfeeds are fine for target, varmints and even plainsgame, deer, elk and antelope if you like'm...I have one pushfeed, a Rem 722 in 222 cal. and yes it jams once in a while, but who cares. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
GAhunter, Someone above stated that the issue wasn't getting the rounds to feed into the chamber. The issue was getting the fired cartridge out which was the most important issue. That's where the CRF receiver can rip the spent shell out. I've never been to Africa, but I have had numerous discussions with a friend who has been there dozens of times (Doug La Pasta - if anyone has hunted with him) + the guys from Griffin & Howe in Bernardsville, NJ. They both say the same thing - you want to make certain the spent shell is extracted and not stuck in the chamber. That being said, I own many factory 700s and 2 custom 700s (416 Rem Mag Sendaro, 338 WSM Sendaro). I wouldn't dare to take any of them after DG - I don't consider the black bears in Pennsylvania to be DG, although some are rather large. If you are interested in using the 700 for moderately DG or for DG, I would suggest at a minimum having a Sako extractor installed. It's about $150.00 USD. It can make a world of difference. In the past, on several of my 700s prior to having the Sako extractor installed, brass would build up on the boltface. I'd be firing at game, open the bolt, and the bolt would fail to extract the spent cartridge. The Sako extractor almost eliminates this. If I had a cape or something else bearing down on me the Sako extractor could make a difference. It's a worthwhile investment for a 700. Even if the gun is only being used for whitetails over peanut, sorghum, and cotton fields. My $.02 Best of luck you you. ------------------ Regards, Mark | |||
|
| one of us |
Folks I just recieved my volume 7, No 6 copy of "AFRICAN HUNTER" magazine, and there is an article by Don Heath, the Editor of this magazine, and a citizen of Zimbabwe. The name of the article is "AFRICAN PERSPECTIVE" LESSONS LEARNED! This is a study of the problems encountered with rifles used in the PROFESSIONAL HUNTER'S PROFICIENCY EXAM. I suggest the respondants here read this very carefully, and see what the people who make their liveing hunting very large, and dangerous game have to say. If that doesn't make a difference in the way you regard things like Mod 700 Remingtons, nothing will!
------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
Mac the instructor I eluded to in my previous post was a contributor to that data base! ------------------ | |||
|
one of us |
GAHunter, I went through the same thing you did with my rifle. I was going to have it rechambered into a .416 or .458 and build my own DGR. After talking to my friends who know, and the people here, I decided to build mine on a Mauser action. It's coming along nicely. I'm taking my push-feed and building a varmint rifle out of it. | |||
|
| one of us |
JJ, Make sure you bring 3 extra rounds for that Lott, I'm going to give it a go in May when you arrive! Cheers Pete ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
You guys are funny. Either a CRF or push feed will not put a round in the chamber if it has been short stroked. CRF actions are also more sensitive to ammo overall length. If your push feed is clean and fed good ammo it will be as reliable as any CRF. | |||
|
| one of us |
Not that I'm sticking up for either one, I like them both, but if you short stroke a CRF the cartridge will stay with the bolt and allow you to eject it before feeding another. With the push feed you will have to clear the first one by hand or risk a double feed. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
quote: <<<<<<<< SMILE >>>>>>> Rickt300, stop, and think about what you just wrote! ------------------ [This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 04-03-2002).] | |||
|
| one of us |
A few notes... A CRF with no round in the chamber, when short stroked, picks up nothing. "Click!" A mis-adjusted Mauser, when "short" stroked dang near the extractor, but not ejected, may pick up another (due to rounds in the magazine moved forward), and cause a jam. The extractor must be made long enough to toss before another is picked up(and/or the rounds must be kept at the rear of the magazine). There is enough "play" for this to happen. My Mauser used to do this, but I changed out the extractor. ~~~Suluuq | |||
|
| <richard10x> |
quote: there are many in this forum with experience levels much greater than mine concerning DGRs, but some thoughts come to mind. 1. | ||
|
| Moderator |
In Jarrett's defense, he does indeed use the crf M70 for his line of DGRs. I believe he calls them Pro Hunters or something to that effect. He also will use a M70 for one of his "beanfield" rifles, I know because he built one for me! That said, I totally agree with the others regarding the M700s, they're fine for plains game use but build the "serious" gun on a Mauser or M70 crf action. | |||
|
| <Don Martin29> |
For hunting rifles I am influenced by what I read here and elsewhere I admit. Plus what I see. I really like the action of a pre-64 M-70 and a 99 Savage for that matter. I have broken the extractor on a push feed M-70. I chambered a too tight reload, forced the bolt closed and fired it. When I opened it the parts fell into the raceways. The thickness of that extractor where it goes into the dovetails in the bolt face are .050" thick. But so is the rim on a 30/06! The metal on the pushfeed broke. Not done right. On the other hand I never saw a Garand jam. But autoloaders have the benefit of the spring that gives positive forward moton except of course the M-16. I have jammed a 98/95 Mauser! I have fed a round in by dropping it into the chamber and had the non beveled extractor jam it into the chamber. My dad always beveled them. I just got his M-51 JC Higgins out as it has a commercial FN action. The extractor looks beveled by the "factory". I use Remington 40X's for target shooting. This is very important to me. A failure would really be bad. A Remington 7XX type or 40-X has never failed for me. I shot a 722/.222 for about 8000 shots and it never failed. Once when the Hodgdon Ball C came out the data was really wrong. I recall taking the bolt out of the action to hammer cases loose from the recessed bolt face from overloads. The extractor was never dammaged they always worked. The bottom line is that the Remington action looks cheap to me, a M-70 does not. But they all work for me. | ||
|
| Moderator |
quote: GaHunter, ------------------ | |||
|
| <hd352802> |
Push feed rifles are not nearly as foolproof as are CRF rifles, whatever PF fans say. I don't understand the controverse around that. Hugh. | ||
|
| one of us |
quote: Rusty Gun, your points are well made for what you CALL short stroaking, but what you describe is not short stroking! and in a CRF in working order cannot happen in the way you describe anyway. I think a better name for what we are talking about is an INCOMPLETE bolt stroke. The short strokeing we refere to here is always on the second shot, or at least after the initial shot. The bolt is slammed to the rear ejecting the fired round, this applies to both push feed, and CRF. The so-called short strokeing problem comes when a round is picked up off the top of the magazine, is shoved forward toward the chamber, but because of a case of nerves the bolt handle is not turned down, but is with drawn again. With a CRF the round is kicked out of the rifle, before a new round is picked up off the top of the magazine, but in the case of the push feed the first round is still in the tray,because the extractor is only engaged when the bolt handle is turned down, on a push feed rifle, and is then joined by the second round, JAMMMMMM. As you describe your rifles habit of picking up a second round before the first one is ejected is impossible,in a rifle that is in working order, because the first round is still inclosed in the front of the bolt, and the next round has no place to go, and cannot be picked up by the bolt, because it is already FULL, and the next shell cannot push the first round out of the way. If the bolt of a CRF, at this point is shoved forward again it simply chambers the first round. Additionally the ejector is hit by the rearward traveling first round, before it gets far enough back for the bolt to pick up the next round. Anything can be damaged and made to jam, and if your rifle did this it was damaged, by someone who didn't know sick-um, from come here! A damaged CRF jamming, in my mind, is a far cry from a rifle that will jam under the same cercumstances when NEW, and as DESIGNED! ------------------ | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
| View $GS_USERNAME's Public Profile |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Buddies |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Ignore List |
| Invite $GS_USERNAME to a Private Topic |
| View Recent Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
| Notify me of New Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
