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One of Us |
There is current discussion with a bunch of PH's pertaining to a photograph depicting two buffalo bulls at a watering hole. The picture itself doesn't need posting, but the question has been asked whether a PH would allow a client to harvest any of the animals as a trophy. Happily the majority of guys said they would not, as both bulls have been aged at 5 years and too young. That said, it is not uncommon for buffalo in this age category to be shot; my belief being that the SCI scoring method as well as Rowland Ward, allow for younger animals to be shot as they score more highly for record book purposes. Eland fall into this category as well, to an extent. We would be interested to hear from clients on a possible alternative scoring method, which would allow more dagga boys to be actively hunted and less of the younger, wider bulls. | ||
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Neil........ this should be interesting because it has been a concern for some time. How does one arrive at a method to score horns that promotes LESS due to age and the resulting wear? I think the inability to date of devising an acceptable method is what has resulted in the shift towards trying to change the mindset of individual hunters on what constitutes a trophy. This has worked somewhat, but all you have to do is read the posts when this comes up for discussion on AR and you will still see quite a few who basically say "I paid for the hunt and I will bloody well shoot it if I like it." It would be great if such a revised measuring system for buff could be established because then the people that play the awards, trinkets and bobbles programs could continue to do so. Over time this would go a long ways towards getting hunters to realize that sometimes less is more. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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There should never have been a record book for game hunted, it is about the hunt not the size, just my two cents worth .... Phillip du Plessis www.intrepidsafaris.com info@intrepidsafaris.co.za +27 83 633 5197 US cell 817 793 5168 | |||
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I really do not know how buff are scored. What if the deducted points for a soft boss. | |||
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You are right. Hunting has been turned into a competitive sport, to the extent that if you have enough money, you can pretty well win all the silly "trophies" on offer. Just look at all the "Inner Circles" SCI offers. | |||
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Surely they are just assessing the buff and not contemplating shooting at a water hole.... Regards | |||
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I find the record books useful only to give me a benchmark as to what an exceptional trophy might be for a given species. | |||
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In my opinion I don't think it should matter. If you hunt mature animals who cares what the score is? I have a water Buff on my wall that I've never measured. When I look at it I think of the hunt, the caping and fleshing of the cape which I did by myself, they are all memory's that I have of that animal . I don't think how big are the horns, are they representative/outstanding.
 ------------------------------ A mate of mine has just told me he's shagging his girlfriend and her twin. I said "How can you tell them apart?" He said "Her brother's got a moustache!" | |||
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One of Us |
As I understand it (Shakari can correct me) Rowland Ward measures the maximum outside width of a buffalo's horns with no concern for size of the bosses. Also as I understand it, (again, someone please correct me if I'm mistaken) SCI measures from one tip of a buffalo's horns, following along the outside curve and across the gap (if any) between the bosses and along the outside curve of the other horn to its tip. The widths of the two bosses, measured from the top of the horns, are then added to the score. There is a chapter in my book, "Royal Quest, The Hunting Saga of H.I.H. Prince Abdorreza Pahlavi of Iran" that shows what can happen when a hunter doesn't realize there are differences. Two quests Abdorreza never completed were to collect a hundred-pound elephant and a 50-inch buffalo, and he spread the word that he would pay top dollar to shoot them. A claim from a South African outfitter about having a 50-inch buffalo on his farm, resulted in the Prince flying there and shooting a fine bull whose horns easily met his goal under the SCI method, but not under Rowland Ward's, which is what he wanted. His Imperial Highness was not happy (to say the least) and wanted me to call the outfitter a "crook" in print. I did not. A similar thing happened when he shot an elephant whose tusks weighed only a couple of pounds per side shy of the magic 100-pound mark. Incidentally, Saeed, as I remember it from 16 years ago, SCI's Inner Circles program has no minimum scores. Copying the Grand Slam for North America's sheep hunters and the Big Five for African dangerous game hunters, C.J. McElroy designed SCI's World Hunting Awards to honor collectors, not those who hunt strictly for record book trophies. Bill Quimby | |||
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I think deifferent species give you different satisfaction from hunt. It is really in the eye of the beholder and it's been probable that way since my Neanderthal ancestors " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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Because the SCI scoring system includes boss size (both left and right), and bosses are largest when they are "old" mature and hard, the SCI systems encourages shooting mature (older) bulls. The bosses are essentially irrelevant in the Rowland Ward system and can be young and soft. | |||
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There are indeed some alternative methods. Here an alternative method has been proposed This may have all it really takes, but will the measurement manias accept it? Andrew McLaren Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974. http://www.mclarensafaris.com The home page to go to for custom planning of ethical and affordable hunting of plains game in South Africa! Enquire about any South African hunting directly from andrew@mclarensafaris.com After a few years of participation on forums, I have learned that: One can cure: Lack of knowledge – by instruction. Lack of skills – by practice. Lack of experience – by time doing it. One cannot cure: Stupidity – nothing helps! Anti hunting sentiments – nothing helps! Put-‘n-Take Outfitters – money rules! My very long ago ancestors needed and loved to eat meat. Today I still hunt! | |||
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Andrew: It takes more than "measurement manias." There needs to be an entity with a staff and a budget to collect entries and publish them. If SCI or Rowland Ward were to change their measuring methods there would be loud and angry screams from hunters with entries in their books so don't hold your breath waiting for either book to suddenly change their methods. Do you think Saeed might consider launching an Accurate Reloading Record Book of Trophy African Animals with its own measuring systems?   Bill Quimby | |||
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The commercial aspect of these books will ensure their continuation, so we need to accept. An adage of Round Table (An international fund raising group) is "Adopt, Adapt, Improve" - that's what we need to do. SCI could open a new category for Dagga boys where, apart from measuring the width, could double the boss width; as we all know Dagga boys tend to have larger bosses. How would this help with horn width, knowing that older bulls may also broom/break off horns? Categorise the trophy again for certain widths?
This is the preferred attitude from the majority of PH's, I'm sure. Having someone who appreciates every aspect of the hunt, from sunrise to sunset and the time spent BS'ing around a campfire. These are the memories we should seek. I am yet to click on Andrew's link to proposed alternative measurements, but shall. | |||
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An index, created through dividing tip space by the mean of the two individual horn lengths proved to serve the purpose. This factor was then applied to the mean of the SCI and Rowland Ward measurements in the samples. These methods allowed broomed horns to score more points in the record books than non-broomed horns. Boss width and boss space are other possible measurement inclusions that could be considered. This is the alternative suggestion as per Andrew's link. | |||
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All said and done, to this day no one talks of a buffalo having scored 100,105 or 115. Whoever advertises or whoever has taken a buffalo, the measurement always seems to reflect the basis set by RW. I have yet to have guided a client refer to the size of the buffalo of his dreams according to SCI measurements even if a 38 with massive drop and curl will score the minimum 100 or just over.  All in all the system adopted by SCI gives the buffalo and any of the other horned species a far better evaluation; to appease the masses who feel the "tip to tip" measurement is more impressive is probably something that SCI should maybe include as part of the recording data. | |||
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Thanks Neil-PH for so succinctly summarizing the essence of the Gandy and Reilly suggestion. Thanks also Bill Quimby for your suggestion that Saeed could come to the rescue - smilies noted! But I've just spent some time looking at the photos of some of the "Top Ten" Cape Buffalo trophies in the SCI records as published here.. IMHO, and in the best interest of future buffalo trophy hunters, there is a real need for some alternative trophy recognition system that will drastically reduce the tendency to shoot younger (breeding potential) bulls with long horns! I would really like to hear, and I'm sure so would many others, considered comment on the "possible value" and validity of the Gandy & Reilly suggested trophy buffalo scoring method? In good hunting. Andrew McLaren Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974. http://www.mclarensafaris.com The home page to go to for custom planning of ethical and affordable hunting of plains game in South Africa! Enquire about any South African hunting directly from andrew@mclarensafaris.com After a few years of participation on forums, I have learned that: One can cure: Lack of knowledge – by instruction. Lack of skills – by practice. Lack of experience – by time doing it. One cannot cure: Stupidity – nothing helps! Anti hunting sentiments – nothing helps! Put-‘n-Take Outfitters – money rules! My very long ago ancestors needed and loved to eat meat. Today I still hunt! | |||
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I agree , no ones talk about his 105 Buff , no one asks for a 105 Buff , everyone however is infatuated by the " magical 40 " number. And while only a small number of hunters will enter their buff in the record book , many perceive the 40 inch mark to be the benchmark against which to judge Buffalo. What utter hog wash. Most hunters don't know what a 40 inch Buff looks like , wouldn't know the difference on the wall be it 38 or 41. They do know that their friends talk about 40+ and that writers talk about 40+ , so its got to be the end all and be all... We don't need a new measuring system , we need a change in attitude. SCI already has a system that takes outside spread out of the equation. It doesn't work. | |||
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Bill, Thank for making my point. What you have written above about His Imperial Highness is exactly what I mean. Granted, he liked to hunt, but I also think the over riding reason became that he wanted to see his name in print with trophies. A point, it me at least, makes a mockery of what hunting is. So "Inner Circles" have no minimum, but one has to shoot these animals to qualify?? I hesitate to say those who get into those circles are actually hunters. They are just plain "collectors", which is fine for such items as stamps, but certainly not hunting. | |||
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Sorry Bill, the whole idea of measuring animals just does not appeal to me at all. | |||
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That is apparently what it boils down to. One such recipient of the coveted Diamond Award had 2 African species missing from his list to qualify. He wanted just the 2, nothing else; a Gerenuk that he would take in Masailand and a Harvey's Red Duiker down in the Selous. His implicit instructions on the Gerenuk were: "As long as it has balls and horns, regardless of their length, will be good enough to qualify".  | |||
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WOW! How sad to degrade hunting and bring it down to this level! | |||
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The concept is not new and began long before SCI came along. The Grand Slam Club has been around since the 1950s, and the Big Five concept began at least thirty years before that. If you could see all the sheep taken by Grand Slam "holders" you would find more than a few barely-legal rams. And among all the hundreds of hunters who have taken the Big Five, how many can truthfully say their Big Five includes no females or young males? Bill Quimby | |||
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This is precisely what makes SCI a joke, despite what good they sometimes try to appear to be doing. It needs to be stopped, and clients like that need to stay away.......unfortunately its the old story of $$$$$$$ ruling supreme. | |||
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Yes, that is what it boils down to. Nature of the beast and it does not matter if we are talking about hunting, raising purebred livestock or companion animals, kids in 4H, you name it. Some will find a way to bastardize the whole process for personal gain, either monetarily or to stroke the ego. Doesn't matter how some of us view record books, they are not going to go away any time soon, because there are way too many who ARE proponents and do seek recognition in the various record books. Even some of the guys I have met who claim they are not interested, quickly change their tune when something big hits the dirt or quietly enter it when they get back home. The big issue with changing a method for these record books is getting the hundreds or thousands of animals that are already listed under the old measuring method re-scored. Very costly to all involved, including the scorers who traditionally are doing it out of the goodness of their heart with no remuneration involved. The secondary issue is that many who have top scoring heads may find they will not do so well under the new system and the individuals who are in the "look at me" crowd will do a lot of pissing and moaning about it. Typically they are also in the big money crowd with a lot of internal political influence. People.............. I generally don't like many of them and its why I am anti-social and boarkiller refers to me as a country bumpkin or hick. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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If you happen to be fortunate enough to get a special trophy what is wrong with there being a system which records such things so that you can compare yours to.It could be that 30 or 40 years ago things were out of control but look what other things were considered acceptable back then.Also why take the bad and extreme cases of trophy seekers out there and use it to represent the systems that exist today. | |||
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The "trophy" system is already out of control. So many animals are bred, or captured, and are transported to suitable locations for our self-worshipping nut can fly out immediately and kill it, to add to his high ranking SCI "trophies". As I keep saying, there is a whole industry in South Africa supporting this sick part of our sport. And SCI is turning a blind eye to it. I did a bit of research on this, and what I found out was absolutely flabbergasting! So if they really wanted to put a stop to this - entering captured animals in the record book - it would not require much from them to do so. When all this comes out, it will make the stories of "canned" lions seem very tame by comparison! | |||
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We need a new and modern system with only wild trophies starting from recent years but I dont think there will be enough interest to start and keep one. | |||
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Neil - please drop me a mail to doctari505@gmail.com Been traveling this road for many years now and has some ideas I'd like to discuss. Kevin | |||
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The very first year I ever hunted in Africa, several of the animals I shot would have made the SCI record book if I wanted to enter them. Including a possible number 1! I refused to enter it, despite not having any knowledge of all the shenanigans so called "record book holders" were up to. It just did not seem right to me. Since then, we have all heard the sort of silly antics these "hunters" get up to make sure their names appear in that silly book. | |||
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I whole-heartedly agree that whether or not one's trophy "made the book" is far, far less important than the memories of the hunt it brings back. However I repeat that the qualifying scores do help those of us who don't often get to hunt in Africa to know what an exceptional trophy looks like. I have been told that at least three of the animals I have shot on my three trips to African countries would qualify for Rowland-Ward, but I would never dream of trying to enter them. It's just not at all important to me. It is nice to know, however, that my PH's efforts helped me to have a chance at a "very good" trophy. | |||
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Saeed, I don't understand why we need to know that you may have killed a "number 1!" You've already made it clear you don't believe in record books and the like. Discussing relative size and record book participation is completely optional. | |||
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I looked at a number of the pictures of top scoring buffalo. I have to say most did not have horns that look like what I have in my minds eye. It is easy to get caught up in the one-upsmanship of record keeping. As has been said elsewhere, I have seen the enemy and it is us! Tom | |||
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SCI has made MINE IS BIGGER THAN YOURS the holy grail of hunting. Ethics and law breaking can't be made to stand in the way! | |||
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I agree that the photos of some, if not most, of the high ranking trophies listed in SCI records does not look anything like my idea of a very good trophy. Good trophy potential, yes, if given a few more years to mature properly and get beyond probable breeding age. I also agree that we are often, if not nearly always, our own worst enemy! But we are also, or should also be a part of the solution! In a small attempt to be part of the solution, I posted a link to a suggested alternative buffalo trophy scoring method that is claimed will help to alleviate the shooting breeding age bulls with good trophy values according to the existing scoring methods and of good potential trophy value according to the suggested new scoring system. IMHO we need to discuss, criticize and suggest improvements to the proposed scoring system. Then we are attempting to be part of the solution! In good hunting. Andrew McLaren Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974. http://www.mclarensafaris.com The home page to go to for custom planning of ethical and affordable hunting of plains game in South Africa! Enquire about any South African hunting directly from andrew@mclarensafaris.com After a few years of participation on forums, I have learned that: One can cure: Lack of knowledge – by instruction. Lack of skills – by practice. Lack of experience – by time doing it. One cannot cure: Stupidity – nothing helps! Anti hunting sentiments – nothing helps! Put-‘n-Take Outfitters – money rules! My very long ago ancestors needed and loved to eat meat. Today I still hunt! | |||
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Best buffalo scoring method is the width of a smile. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Saeed, IMO, you're over estimating the effect of record books on hunter behavior. Record books are a reflection of our basic nature, they don’t dictate our nature. Trophy hunting has been practiced by hunters for centuries, and long before record books came into existence. Just, go to Europe and tour some of the palaces of the previous ruling classes, who preceded us by centuries. Many of these castles and palaces have trophy rooms filled with large trophies having huge horns, etc. Taking away the record books will not eliminate trophy hunting. Those people - going to RSA to shoot some planted trophy will - likely still go, knowing they’re still going to shoot “their” trophy of lifetime – record book or not. This practice you report can only involve a tiny minority of wealthy hunters who can afford it, and the monies they spend put high value on game animals – monies, which will support their continued existence on the planet. On a planet dominated by humans (who make the rules) – “if it pays it stays.” I desperately want game animals to stay – and thrive – on this planet. I don’t want to live on a planet with only humans. Moreover, I don't see why record books create so much emotion. If you don't want to participate, don't participate. Shoot your trophies without the ruler - no law says you have to. Now, if you're against trophy hunting in general, then don't trophy hunt. Don't shoot the old big bulls, but rather shoot the first legal animal you see – even cows. Better yet, participate in cull hunts that allow you to shoot stuff - even a lot of stuff – for much less money. Finally, if trophy size is not important, why is so much energy devoted to the importance of having large-horned buffalo in the herd? Obviously, it’s because many posting here – including Kevin Robertson – want big trophies in the herd. Big trophies must be important to them, which is good. Clearly, big horns matter to hunters. This has been the case for centuries, and it will continue to be so for centuries. Record books or not. | |||
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You might be right. But, looking at what SCI has done about "trophy hunting", it has become so bad I am convinced so many of the so called "trophies" in that record book have been shot in a manner not many of us would accept as either ethical or might be illegal. All for the purpose of having one's name in the record book. Many of those who hold record book trophies are only in it to compete with others of the same mentality. They have absolutely no interest in hunting for the sake of hunting as the rest of us. | |||
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AIU, I couldn't agree more. In my experience in the hunting business I just don't run into many hunters that just simply want to kill something. Budget seems to be the driving factor in almost all cases and hunters will book the areas producing the biggest trophies if they can afford it. If their budget is somewhat limited they are willing to book a hunt producing smaller trophies. Most hunters will agree that the "Experience" is very valuable but they want good trophies also. The record books let people know what is a good trophy and what is not. I think without the record book and all the discussion about trophy size it would be very easy for unscrupulous outfitters to let their clients shoot small or immature animals. Some folks are proud of the fact they do not carry a tape measure on their hunts. Personally I think that is a mistake particularly for a safari novice. If you don't at least rough measure your animals how do you know if you even shot a descent representative? It'd be pretty easy for once again an unscrupulous operator to way over estimate the size or maturity of a trophy. Personally I always carry a tape because I'm really interested in what I did and how it compares to my expectations. If it's an inch or two shorter than my expectations so be it but I want to know how big it is. I hunt for trophies and I'm also a collector. I make no apologies for that. I'm not going for any type of awards but I take satisfaction in a good hunt that produces a good trophy. On the other hand I'm not going to let not getting the trophy I want spoil my whole experience. Just being on the hunt particularly in Africa is worth the price. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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| One of Us |
I find the less a wannabe buff hunter knows, the more he wants a "40 incher" with no idea of what one is. It received to much hype from writers who also knew not much | |||
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