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Using your square; 15.44375 sq. miles would have a perimeter of 3.93+3.93+3.93+3.93, equaling a linear distance of 15.72 miles to walk the perimeter. I seriously doubt that the average American client could walk 15.72 miles in one day on a groomed flat track, much less along 15.72 miles of uneven terrain features. And even if the land mass was TEN times larger, the average American client would not be walking great distances anyway as these packaged hunts are based off of road hunting from the vehicle with only short relative walks. I reckon it makes things more challenging if you must drive farther to get to your short walk? Or maybe it is more challenging if you drive through multiple gates vs one?? I just don't get this fence/no fence, 15sq mile/150sq mile piss match when it comes to the tailored "Disneyesque" African road hunts offered today. The outfit is either reputable or not. The package price is either fair and reasonable or not. The services offered are either good or not. The hunts are either above board or not. Hunting an area less than 150 square miles does not automatically equate to some form of below board hunting experience, just as hunting more than 150 square miles does not automatically equate to some form of above board hunting experience. Some of you guys casting these stones are standing in some mighty frail glass houses. Later  | |||
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Gary, As a guy who typically walks those 15 miles up and down the Grand Canyon backcountry several times a year, I can attest my issue with fenced hunting has nothing to do with effort, but rather the fact the animals ARE going to be there. See those pictures? Unless those animals are shot, they are still going to be there. Sure, in Tanzania you cover a lot of ground in a vehicle, but the animals are free to leave the concession on which you hunt. Now, at some point, if the place is large enough, maybe it doesn't matter. But I am thinking about the Save, not a farm. | |||
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I have hunted game farms in RSA and Namibia and Zimbabwe. I have hunted the +1 Million acre fenced Save Valley Conservancy. I have also hunted unfenced communal areas in the Caprivi and in Zimbabwe. Whether or not each of these areas was fenced or unfenced had very little(almost nothing) to do with the quality of the hunts and the amount of pleasure and satisfaction I experienced on those hunts. I am not going to let a bunch of elitist folk who think that the only RIGHT WAY is their way, convince me that I did not have a whale of a good time and hunt on some of these properties because somewhere out there was a fence. We seldom get to choose But I've seen them go both ways And I would rather go out in a blaze of glory Than to slowly rot away! | |||
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The Save Conservancy has not had an in tact perimeter fence for well over a decade. | |||
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The fence may have holes in it, the locals cut it up and use the strands to make snares. But both times I visited it there was a gaurded gate and not one , but two distinct sets of perimeter fence that surrounded the place.I was told that the double fence was required by the government to insure the buffalo did not get out side to infect cattle. Whether or not the fence is still intact or not does not make a hill of beans to me anyway.That was the whole point of my post. I had a great time hunting wild game with some wonderful people and the fence was of no consequence to me at all. We seldom get to choose But I've seen them go both ways And I would rather go out in a blaze of glory Than to slowly rot away! | |||
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+1 Africa is fenced.From Kruger to where ever if its not a fence ,its humanity its farm land its their own little territories they set up for themselves and usually return to. I would have loved to hunt with Ruark and Harry Selby most of the game they shot was out of the truck. I have tracked and lost wounded animals on fenced properties never got near a fence or finding the animal after 2days tracking. NOT FAIR CHASE = YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT. as ever in fair chase hunting Dave Dave Davenport Outfitters license HC22/2012EC Pro Hunters license PH74/2012EC www.leopardsvalley.co.za dave@leopardsvalley.co.za +27 42 24 61388 HUNT AFRICA WHILE YOU STILL CAN Follow us on FACEBOOK https://www.facebook.com/#!/leopardsvalley.safaris | |||
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That would be a contradiction of terms? Are trophies recorded from the Save recorded as game farm animals? ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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If you follow the link before you will find an article that gives a very good discription of the conservancy. It also describes the fence in detail as a double electric fence. I did not walk the perimeter when I was there last time and so I cannot state whether or not the fence is intact. I did notice that where I went through the gate to enter the property there was two sets of fencing, one seperated from the other by several yards. The gate was gaurded.My PH told me that the war vets were cutting fence and using it to fashion the snares that we were finding but I have not heard of any concerted effort to bring down the fences. Anyone that is interested can read more. www.cse2000.org/html/save_valley.html - Cached We seldom get to choose But I've seen them go both ways And I would rather go out in a blaze of glory Than to slowly rot away! | |||
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Russ, I believe it's very good time to hunt in Africa. I'm 57 and I hunted in Namibia last year for my maiden trip to the Dark Continent. I don't think I could have packed any more enjoyment into 8 days. Africa was a boyhood dream for both myself and my very good friend I shared the hunt with, but the dream had been watered down somewhat with the big 5 being replaced by a selection of PG. Having said that, the enjoyment of hunting and just being in Africa certainly wasn't diminished. At this point in time, there's only one of the big 5 that I'd really like to hunt and that's a buffalo, the rest?? I'm happy to look at them through binos and not a scope. It was the first time I'd hunted behind wire and I'll admit I had some reservations initially, but at the end of the hunt they had completely disappeared, I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Way back when I first started to think about hunting in Africa, it was only movie stars and other wealthy individuals who could afford the investment of both time and money to hunt Africa, but now, even Joe Average can do a 7 day PG hunt with a couple of years of regular saving. Hunting Africa has almost certainly been better, but it's never been more affordable. | |||
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My two cents. To each his own. I am personally not interested in a high fence area. I am not knocking it and I am sure there are many quality outfits where you will get a fair chase experience but I do not think it can replicate "wild" Africa. When I went on my first safari in 2005, I made a consicious decision to skip over the traditional entry to Afician safaris via a South Africa PG safari, etc. I wanted to be in a DG area, hear lions roaring, hyenas, etc, and I got that plus some in Tanazania with hyenas right outisde my tent the first night, running into lion the second day, etc. Granted, price is a factor but there are some very affordable PG hunts in Zim where you can be the thick of it with DG around you and with all the sights and sounds. Again, it is personal choice. I also agree with Russ Gould. What about a discussion on the original statement? I think the present is never a better time to hunt in Africa. | |||
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The title of this thread is "There has never been a better time to hunt Africa," when what was meant probably was "there will never be a better time to hunt my place in South Africa than now." There is a huge difference. As originally stated, the title ignores the era when Kenya and Tanzania were the primary destinations and nearly every outfitter offered full big five safaris at prices comparable to not much more than what a new automobile cost at the time. In 1983, when I took over SCI's publications, 14-day hunts that included lion, buffalo or elephant in Zimbabwe were advertised on the back cover of Safari magazine for less than $4,000 including daily rates and trophy fees. I still have my receipt for trophy fees for the buffalo, kudu and sable I shot on a seven-day hunt at Westwood Wildlife Safaris in Zimbabwe's Matetsi that year. It shows I paid a bit more than $1,000 for those three animals. I could have shot a leopard that walked in front of our truck one morning, but I didn't have the $600 (I think it was) it would have cost with me. Unfortunately, we will never see such prices again. Bill Quimby | |||
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I think we are still seeing a window for elephant hunting that is not going to last forever. Now is the time. I think lion hunting is going to become much more expensive in the future. | |||
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Folks, I have been watching the evolution of this thread with interest, although sometimes I think devolution would better describe some of the comments  The area is like 99% of hunting areas in South Africa surrounded by a game fence. It is a fact of life that we have game fences here. This practice is as a result of game being subject to private ownership since the 1960's and which encouraged the interest in conservancies and game ranches in private hands. ie if it pays it stays. This has led to about 3500 ranches being established and game populations grown from around 100,000 animals in the country 60 years ago to over 1,200,000 today, and the conservation areas in private hands are more than 3x that of all our national parks combined. More often than not these game ranches are developed in areas that are not conducive to domestic animal or crop agriculture. Ranchers spend millions on land, infrastructure and animals and it is understandable that they protect their investments with fences to prevent the animals they have spent money on wandering off or being subject to poaching which is a very real problem. A single breeding sable can cost anything above $35000 as an example. The pictures are indicative of the animals found on this ranch which is a reflection of many years of the seed animals being left to their own devices. The animals were photagraphed from hides and vehicles. The reason this ranch is now being opened to a controlled amount of hunting is that the overseas owners have realised that the sucessful management of a game ranch would also require the sustainable utilisation models of capture, cull or hunt. Fortunately they have agreed to the hunt model at this stage. If game was not subject to private ownership here the odds of there being much hunting in South Africa would be incredibly slim, both for local and foreign hunters, and hunting as a result in other countries would be under extreme pressure, very limited and incredibly expensive and open to the few elite who could afford it. As far as the good time to hunt comment, Quimby sort of summed it up with his price comparison. I was looking thru some brochures and pricelists of an old outfitting company which I have recently taken over from a good friend of mine, and dug out some other old brochures from various companies that I did work for a number of years ago. The prices of daily rates have actually come down in a lot of instances, and while the recession is still around, they will I believe stabilise for awhile, which for the hunter is a good thing. I have noticed the same thing with game prices. So now is a good time to hunt Africa. As an aside, a very interesting movie has just been produced by Peter Flack who is a well known and very wealthy hunter here. He is also the winner of the prestigious Musgrave award for achievements and contributions to the hunting and conservation game. It is called "The conservation success story of South Africa" or something along those lines, and is very interesting in that it traces the history of the excesses and the subsequent failures and successes which have led to where we are today. This will be available of DVD as from the middle of march after the world premiere. I will be happy to mail a DVD anyone who is interested in seeing this and will post a note on the forum when they are available. Good hunting, Harris Safaris PO Box 853 Gillitts RSA 3603 www.southernafricansafaris.co.za https://www.facebook.com/pages...=aymt_homepage_panel "There is something about safari life that makes you forget all your sorrows and feel as if you had drunk half a bottle of champagne." - Karen Blixen, | |||
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Great reply. Please do post a note when that DVD becomes available. I would be very interested in getting a copy. It sounds very interesting. On a side note.....you brought up the increasing prices of Sable. I find it interesting that it is now quite a bit cheaper to buy and raise Sable here in the state of Texas than it is in RSA. Before long, it will be cheaper to hunt Sable on ranches in Texas than in most parts of Africa. Typically, trophy Sable in Texas carry a trophy fee between $7,500 and $12,000. Interesting..... _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
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Here's my take on the "better time" issue: While the "good old days" are gone forever, I think it's all downhill from here. The existence of white-owned land set aside for wild animals and the enjoyment of mostly white, mostly foreign clients, is anathema to the black political elite in South Africa and Namibia, and probably some other countries that I am not intimately familiar with. In South Africa, the ruling party is under increasing pressure to deliver the nirvana they promised when they were elected over 20 years ago. Since that time, the living conditions of many of their supporters (and the supporters of the opposition) have declined. The population has doubled since 1980. There is unrest, disease, ignorance, and hunger lurks around the corner. The politicians will need to appease the voters, and the path of least resistance is to hand out land. In Namibia, the same level of pressure does not exist, but if anything, the ideology of the ruling elite is more Marxist than in South Africa. So I think we are seeing the beginnings of a mass confiscation and "redistribution" of private land in RSA (the legal framework is already in place), as well as Namibia. These countries are both headed down the same one-way street as Zimbabwe. There has been sporadic "land reform" in both countries, but not enough to appease the hungry mob. Malema in RSA is a sign of things to come. In Namibia, some of the better rainfall areas, capable of supporting some crop cultivation, and certainly capable of supporting traditional livestock farming, are currently dedicated to game farming but are "on the list" for redistribution. I believe a database of all farms in Namibia was drawn up about 5 years ago for "planning purposes". Read "eviction notices", a la Zimbabwe. Now Zimbabwe. Much as I have hoped that sanity would return to that country, and that private property will once again be placed in responsible hands, leading to a rebound in commercial and game farming, I fear that is a pipe dream. The human population pressures mount, even in a country living close to famine and battling outbreaks of infectious diseases. The bureaucrats (at all levels) have learned the art of the shake-down, which demoralizes private enterprise; and there is no sign of a visionary leader who does not suffer from race paranoia, waiting in the wings ready to the reins of the country. The discovery of diamonds takes the pressure off reform, as the government is no longer bankrupt, and the diamond money will perpetuate the corruption and patronage. On the contrary, the hunger for greenbacks is now influencing the Parks dept at all levels. This will result in a temporary spate of elephant permits, but in the long run, overhunting, poaching, "bending the rules" and shake-downs will erode the quality of hunting on state-owned land. One just has to look at the Binga communal area to understand where Zim is headed. So bottom line, I would agree that there will be some good deals and some good quality hunting for the next three to five years. After that, supply will drop noticeably and most of us will be doing our hunting closer to home. The wealthy will still enjoy Tanzania and Botswana, but the prices will be beyond the reach of the working class. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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+1 "If you can't go all out, don't go..." | |||
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"While the "good old days" are gone forever, I think it's all downhill from here." Russ, I hope you are wrong, although I suspect you probably are not. People have been predicting the end of hunting in Africa for as long as I can remember. (George Eastman may have been the first to say the good ol' days are gone.) Lots of people said it again when Kenya closed, but it only pushed the industry west and south into new areas. Fortunately, there still are some untapped opportunities in west and northwest Africa, just waiting for a few enterprising multi-lingual operators to develop for the next generation of hunters. Unfortunately, if it happens, it will be too late for me and others of my age. Bill Quimby | |||
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I refuse to believe the “good old days of Africa” are a thing of the past. This may make me a bloody fool, but I refuse it. In 2005 I fell madly in love with Africa and there has been little happen in my life which has caused me to believe I made a mistake in doing so. But none of us can merely sit on the sidelines, playing “armchair bwana” and expect that we aren’t going to lose the Africa we have that deep connection with. As for there never having been a better time to hunt Africa…I wholeheartedly agree. I agree because yesterday is gone…and tomorrow is not promised. If we don’t take advantage of what we have available to us today…We may never have it again. And we will all be poorer because of it. It would have been heaven to be tramping along with Selous or pouring sundowners for Hemingway or Ruark, but that isn’t ever going to happen…at least not while I am awake or still breathing. The best thing I can do is make my own path in Africa and find some suitable companions to share a drink with around a fire at night. It is on each of us to make Africa, Africa… Cheers, Brian "If you can't go all out, don't go..." | |||
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Allout: If you didn't experience Africa until 2005, you missed what I experienced in the "good ol' days" by more than two decades. On the other hand, I missed Jack O'Connor's and Warren Page's "good ol" days" by about the same number of years -- and they missed what those who came before them lamented as being gone forever. The point is, Africa and its hunting changes and we need to go with the flow. Bill Quimby | |||
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