quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Interesting aside, I Googled photos of Buffalo to see if I could find some additional photos of soft bossed bulls.

Found this photo of me with my first buffalo on the AfricanSkyHunting.co.za website. Looked through the list of PHs. I don't know these guys at all. Never heard of any of them, yet they are using my trophy shot as a marketing aid.

Not the first time I've found RSA outfitters poaching my photos.

I'll try to post it here. First attempt at posting photos since the Photobucket debacle so bear with me if it doesn't post correctly the first time.


https://lh3.googleusercontent....7Trmvpuqnr5xob=w2400

Nice buff. But I think I know the beauty queen of a rifle that took it

Stealing photos of the internet - that is low. Another outfitter that is a crook.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Interesting aside, I Googled photos of Buffalo to see if I could find some additional photos of soft bossed bulls.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Yeah Roman, they are obvious when they are that young and have all that hair between the horns. But as in the photo under question, that bull doesn't have a well developed front corner to his bosses and it appears to me there is room for them to continue spreading to fill in those corners (doesn't mean touching the other side and completely closed but filled in eliminating the upside down "V". Kevin Robertson has posted quite a few photos of bulls like the one in question and referred to them as soft bossed or rather, "not completely hard bossed".

quote:

Originally posted by Roman BGH:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Yeah Roman, they are obvious when they are that young and have all that hair between the horns. But as in the photo under question, that bull doesn't have a well developed front corner to his bosses and it appears to me there is room for them to continue spreading to fill in those corners (doesn't mean touching the other side and completely closed but filled in eliminating the upside down "V". Kevin Robertson has posted quite a few photos of bulls like the one in question and referred to them as soft bossed or rather, "not completely hard bossed".

Agree with you, Todd. I wouldn’t shoot such buffalo with such grey line of soft skin.

quote:

Originally posted by doctari505:
Gentlemen this is a no-brainer. The second buffalo is an impressive 7 year old pre-breeding age bull. He did not have the opportunity to pass his genes on before he was hunted - what a pity as they are now lost. The broken horned old dugga boy is a spectacular trophy - a 'true' buffalo in my opinion and what I believe those passionate about buffalo, like I am, should strive for. What a life such a buffalo (I age him to be 13+) would have lived - and had every opportunity to breed.
Over the past 4 yrs while I headed the Sustainable Utilization department of the Southern African Wildlife College I conducted a research project where with the aid of a light aircraft and good quality camera we photographed the vast majority of the buffalo in the hunting areas adjacent to and open with the Kruger National Park - and all sexually mature bulls (those 5 years old or older) were aged and trophy assessed. (to assist with this mammoth task we had two Oxford University masters students training artificial intelligence computers - like facial recognition, to do this. It total some 14060 'buffalo' were fed into the computer. Bulls were aged as pre-breeding (5 to 7 yrs) active breeding (8 to 11) and post breeding (12 yrs and older) and graded (Rowland Ward measurement) as low 30's (30 to 33"; mid 30's(34 to 36"); high 30's (37 to 39"); Low 40's (40 to 43") mid 40's (44 to 46"); high 40's (47 to 49") Low 50's etc.
And as a comparison the results obtained were compared to a similar number of bulls of all ages from the adjacent, non-hunted KNP population.
And for the first time we trophy evaluated all the sexually mature buffalo cows photographed - because the spread of a cows horns influences significantly the size of the spread of her progeny.
Our results were a real eye-opener - and they have significantly influenced the current APNR hunting protocol because there was a huge difference 'trophy quality wise' between the two areas. I came away from it all a firm believer that 'trophy hunting' as it currently stands is simply not sustainable. It can never be if the best bulls are continually hunted before passing their genes on. We need to stop thinking in inches and start looking at 'age' and 'character' instead. I gave a seminar on this at the recent DSC convention and I have written up the research we did in an article. If anyone is interested - I will gladly send the article. Just drop me a mail at kevin@drkevinrobertson.com

quote:

Originally posted by MikeBurke:
And a second

Thank you for your work!!

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
I certainly believe in taking a "mature" animal. That being said lets look at the term "hunting". Each individual may have a specific idea of what is important to him or her. That is what they are hunting for. Not what you or I are hunting for.
I think most have an idea what they are targeting before asking these questions. Just looking for confirmation. Do not worry about what others think.
Go hunting and chase YOUR dreams.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by Roman BGH:

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
I certainly believe in taking a "mature" animal. That being said lets look at the term "hunting". Each individual may have a specific idea of what is important to him or her. That is what they are hunting for. Not what you or I are hunting for.
I think most have an idea what they are targeting before asking these questions. Just looking for confirmation. Do not worry about what others think.
Go hunting and chase YOUR dreams.

EZ

You are right. But... We hunt not for food, just for fun. We always have a choice. Let’s think about our sons, about nature. Let’s choose what is better for everybody not only for us. Trophy fee is the same)))

One more impressive buffalo I didn’t shoot because of that grey line of skin

https://youtu.be/5iOCExNuX04

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
Current systems are just fine. Bottom buff definitely a better wall hanger.

Strongly disagree as the bull in the bottom photo is the very definition of being soft bossed.



Wanting buff hunters to pay top dollar to basically cull old buffalo on their last legs is just a scam IMO.

Actually, the scam as you cal it, is convincing hunters to pay top dollar to shoot young soft bossed bulls simply because of their spread, not placing value on quality of hunting experience.

Leave those old timers to the lions.

They only become old timers by developing a strong defense, making them the more challenging animal to pursue.

Maybe we should just score buffalo on how long their ball sack hangs?

Which is exactly what shooting soft bossed bulls based on spread is all about!

And for lions we can judge them on how many teeth they are missing?

Probably a good idea if the conservation through hunting model of only taking the older no longer breeding males is as important as we profess it to be.

BH63

But as always, JMHO. YMMV.

quote:

Originally posted by Roman BGH:

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
I certainly believe in taking a "mature" animal. That being said lets look at the term "hunting". Each individual may have a specific idea of what is important to him or her. That is what they are hunting for. Not what you or I are hunting for.
I think most have an idea what they are targeting before asking these questions. Just looking for confirmation. Do not worry about what others think.
Go hunting and chase YOUR dreams.

EZ

You are right. But... We hunt not for food, just for fun. We always have a choice. Let’s think about our sons, about nature. Let’s choose what is better for everybody not only for us. Trophy fee is the same)))

One more impressive buffalo I didn’t shoot because of that grey line of skin

https://youtu.be/5iOCExNuX04

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MikeBurke:

What truly makes a trophy?

The area, the hunt, the amount of effort it takes to kill a mature bull or a cull/management bull.

THIS! ^^^


Discussed many times before but this is the reason I don't hunt with a "scoped 375". That rife / set up is completely adequate for buffalo hunting but for me, when I put the funds together for a hunt, I want to hunt, not jump off the back of the cruiser and pop a buffalo standing out at 100 to 200 yards.

Once the trigger is pulled, the hunt is over for me usually. I've managed a few multiple primary animal hunts over the years so I'm not bitching as I know I've been blessed to hunt Africa, and more than once. But when I do make it over there, I want to get the most out of the experience and for me, that has typically been aided by the use of an open sighted rifle, and preferably a big bore double.

I'm taking an open sighted 416 Rigby this year as I just haven't had the practice time lately I feel is necessary to be proficient with the double.

Notice I've not made any mention of horn size or configuration. For me, it's all the the chase. The best buff hunt I've done was in 2012 using a 577NE, looking for a buff bull for lion bait. We found where two old dugga boys crossed the road, then tracked them about a mile or so, popped up over the ridge of a dry ravine we were in and immediately spooked them. Backed off and had lunch then took up the trail again.

We found them about 2 hours on the trail later. They had crossed an open area, found a small patch of brush with the wind blowing at their backs, from the brush to the open area, then laid down about 20 yards apart, and angled 45 degrees from each other, looking out over the open patch. So they had the entire open area covered visually and the brush patch covered scent wise. Crafty old farts!!!

We picked our way up to within about 60 yards when they spotted us and stood up, giving me just enough time to get in one shot, missing the second shot. The shot wasn't perfect so we had a bit of a follow up to do with the buff making about 3 trips around the brush patch before standing his ground and giving me a chance to make a follow up shot.

He had a narrow spread and a broken left horn. Hard bossed and crafty as hell. I wouldn't trade that experience for a 48" young bull taken out of a herd with a scoped rifle at 100 yards for anything!

I've also come home twice without scoring. Had a great time none-the-less!

That's my idea of a trophy buffalo. I realize that's probably a minority opinion.

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I do not care for the SCI system at all ! It serves no purpose other than to be a vetting system for a competition. They even made up their own species classification system to satisfy the competition.

Rowland Ward on the other hand was and still is a useful tool to record species traits specifically the trait of horn size and where the animal was shot or picked up. RW was a taxidermist and naturalist and this was in a big way part of his legacy and contribution to the world of natural sciences.

If you were a prospective hunter to Africa it gives you an idea of where the "best trophies " in terms of a desired trait can be found


It was not designed to be a competition per se, it gives no reward, no trophy other than a certificate of your entry. The certificate only records the horn dimensions not ranking.

Having said that some turned it into a unofficial competition because in the book entries are ranked from high to low with the low being a arbitrary decided minimum for entry into the book.

The origins of the RW records harks back to a time where Museums, Museum collecting and Museum taxidermy was big business. Museums and museum collections were important places of natural history study and therefore record keeping was very important.

You do realize that RW does not asses boss development at all? It’s purely width, heck, the record buffalo head in RW is a cow. Yes, it’s more exclusive in that it’s harder to meet RW minimums, which if you are anti competition actually is a negative.

My feeling is that, much like abortion, you will never get agreement on record books. Some like them, some don’t... but if RW is OK, then so is any other one- your choice of which you want to use is personal preference.

My goal with what I suggested is to get the record book trophies both more in line with what is best practices (shooting older animals) and what most folks consider prime trophies (hard bosses). While I appreciate that ideally record books should have no impact on practices in the field, it’s pretty self evident that they do drive what a hunter chooses to pursue. I don’t hear too many folks stating they would rather shoot a 32” old buffalo vs a similarly aged and hunted 40+” buffalo.

If a common lament is the bad behavior of shooting young bulls for higher scores, why not remove the temptation? Seems common sense to me. Because you are not going to get rid of record books, you are not going to get rid of competitive behavior in a type A personality world, and you are not going to change anything by insulting the folks you disagree with.

If B&C can deduct points for various flaws in symmetry, certainly all the African books (including RW) can deduct for immaturity.

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
I have yet to see photos of scrum capped bulls on display at the sporting shows.

If that is what you desire, then go for it with my blessings.

I do take exception when people try to redefine something to fit their own personal agenda (good or not), and I absolutely hate dishonesty.

JMO

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
Interestingly, as so succinctly put by doctari505, from a conservation point, rather than shooting the big-bossed, wide horned, breeding bulls, shoot the old post-breeding bulls that can no longer pass on their genes.

If horn size is truly not important, from a trophy viewpoint, who cares if all the big horned bulls are killed off before they breed?

For people who believe the old scrum horned bulls are the ultimate trophy, charge them more for the privilege.

For people who want to shoot old bulls for conservation purposes, then give them a big discount.

And for the rest us, give us an honest expectation of what type of "trophies" we will have a decent chance at, and what we will not be able to shoot (i.e. breeding bulls with 45" spreads, etc).

BH63

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MikeBurke:

What truly makes a trophy?

The area, the hunt, the amount of effort it takes to kill a mature bull or a cull/management bull.

THIS! ^^^


Discussed many times before but this is the reason I don't hunt with a "scoped 375". That rife / set up is completely adequate for buffalo hunting but for me, when I put the funds together for a hunt, I want to hunt, not jump off the back of the cruiser and pop a buffalo standing out at 100 to 200 yards.

Once the trigger is pulled, the hunt is over for me usually. I've managed a few multiple primary animal hunts over the years so I'm not bitching as I know I've been blessed to hunt Africa, and more than once. But when I do make it over there, I want to get the most out of the experience and for me, that has typically been aided by the use of an open sighted rifle, and preferably a big bore double.

I'm taking an open sighted 416 Rigby this year as I just haven't had the practice time lately I feel is necessary to be proficient with the double.

Notice I've not made any mention of horn size or configuration. For me, it's all the the chase. The best buff hunt I've done was in 2012 using a 577NE, looking for a buff bull for lion bait. We found where two old dugga boys crossed the road, then tracked them about a mile or so, popped up over the ridge of a dry ravine we were in and immediately spooked them. Backed off and had lunch then took up the trail again.

We found them about 2 hours on the trail later. They had crossed an open area, found a small patch of brush with the wind blowing at their backs, from the brush to the open area, then laid down about 20 yards apart, and angled 45 degrees from each other, looking out over the open patch. So they had the entire open area covered visually and the brush patch covered scent wise. Crafty old farts!!!

We picked our way up to within about 60 yards when they spotted us and stood up, giving me just enough time to get in one shot, missing the second shot. The shot wasn't perfect so we had a bit of a follow up to do with the buff making about 3 trips around the brush patch before standing his ground and giving me a chance to make a follow up shot.

He had a narrow spread and a broken left horn. Hard bossed and crafty as hell. I wouldn't trade that experience for a 48" young bull taken out of a herd with a scoped rifle at 100 yards for anything!

I've also come home twice without scoring. Had a great time none-the-less!

That's my idea of a trophy buffalo. I realize that's probably a minority opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
I have yet to see photos of scrum capped bulls on display at the sporting shows.

If that is what you desire, then go for it with my blessings.

I do take exception when people try to redefine something to fit their own personal agenda (good or not), and I absolutely hate dishonesty.

JMO

BH63

I have absolutely no care for what they show at exhibitions.

I hunt because I like to hunt.