Between the 2 Chete Safari Area Buffalo taken last season seen in the pictures below which one do you think is the better trophy??

One reminds you of that old double rifle that has no bluing left, stock is bound together with copper wire and buffalo sinews. Bullets are made from lead salvaged from old Landrover batteries, fuelled by black powder cooked over an open fire.

The other is a safe queen double.

Which tells the best stories - if only it could talk!!

Should buffalo be scored in a different way?

My short answer is it makes no difference to me personally. The longer answer is it would be better if SCI changed their scoring method because I feel it encourages the shooting of not fully mature bulls.


What truly makes a trophy?

The area, the hunt, the amount of effort it takes to kill a mature bull or a cull/management bull.


"which one do you think is the better trophy?"

For me hands down the top photo. I have wanted to kill a scrum cap, but have not been successful. In 2011 I killed a very old bull on Omay South that was close to losing its horns but not quite there.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeBurke:

What truly makes a trophy?

The area, the hunt, the amount of effort it takes to kill a mature bull or a cull/management bull.

THIS! ^^^


Discussed many times before but this is the reason I don't hunt with a "scoped 375". That rife / set up is completely adequate for buffalo hunting but for me, when I put the funds together for a hunt, I want to hunt, not jump off the back of the cruiser and pop a buffalo standing out at 100 to 200 yards.

Once the trigger is pulled, the hunt is over for me usually. I've managed a few multiple primary animal hunts over the years so I'm not bitching as I know I've been blessed to hunt Africa, and more than once. But when I do make it over there, I want to get the most out of the experience and for me, that has typically been aided by the use of an open sighted rifle, and preferably a big bore double.

I'm taking an open sighted 416 Rigby this year as I just haven't had the practice time lately I feel is necessary to be proficient with the double.

Notice I've not made any mention of horn size or configuration. For me, it's all the the chase. The best buff hunt I've done was in 2012 using a 577NE, looking for a buff bull for lion bait. We found where two old dugga boys crossed the road, then tracked them about a mile or so, popped up over the ridge of a dry ravine we were in and immediately spooked them. Backed off and had lunch then took up the trail again.

We found them about 2 hours on the trail later. They had crossed an open area, found a small patch of brush with the wind blowing at their backs, from the brush to the open area, then laid down about 20 yards apart, and angled 45 degrees from each other, looking out over the open patch. So they had the entire open area covered visually and the brush patch covered scent wise. Crafty old farts!!!

We picked our way up to within about 60 yards when they spotted us and stood up, giving me just enough time to get in one shot, missing the second shot. The shot wasn't perfect so we had a bit of a follow up to do with the buff making about 3 trips around the brush patch before standing his ground and giving me a chance to make a follow up shot.

He had a narrow spread and a broken left horn. Hard bossed and crafty as hell. I wouldn't trade that experience for a 48" young bull taken out of a herd with a scoped rifle at 100 yards for anything!

I've also come home twice without scoring. Had a great time none-the-less!

That's my idea of a trophy buffalo. I realize that's probably a minority opinion.

based purely on the visual, I like the first photo. But I must agree with the 2 previous posters, there is a lot more to a good hunt than just shooting something.

what makes a trophy??? - exactly what it means to you- who cares what it means in a stupid book- or in somebody else s eyes-forget the ego and love the life instead

I believe that my old dagga boy was my best trophy and one of the best hunts I've been on. But I also believe that almost everyone that hunts buffalo also wants a chance at a younger, Mature bull with width and drop and bosses at least once. May not be so for some (or many) but...................

A trophy is made by the eye of the beholder.

Most people want an old mature bull. A good outfitter gets them to one.

As others have said, the hunt is a lot more than just a score or a piece of taxidermy.

From a book perspective, I would suggest that SCI’s score is better than RW, but that adding a very substantial deduction for soft bosses or lack of wear to the horns would be good. The easy way would be for every % of soft boss area, you subtract 2” or 2% of the total score, whichever is greater, and lack of wear on the bosses is - so many inches. Make it not a “judgement” call, as that allows the kinds of stuff people complain about with B&C or P&Y.

The idea being a soft buff has so much handicap that it can’t make the top of the book.

It wouldn’t be hard to do, but it will require agreement that old is important.

All trophy books and record standards should be disbanded.
It is not a competitive sport, although some make it so.
As stated above, The area, the hunt, the effort...the experience, is what is really important. Not the size or shape.

Total elimination of books and standards would be equally bad.

Why would a immature soft bull from a shot out area be a trophy? Yes, the hunter worked for it, but without standards you will have issues with overshooting and enabling bad actors.

Also, for all your statements, competition is a human norm. As long as it’s healthy it’s actually good. The issue here is to find a way to turn our natural competitive drive to a positive force. It will be tricky, but you need to do it if you want to prevent unhealthy competition.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Total elimination of books and standards would be equally bad.

Why would a immature soft bull from a shot out area be a trophy? Yes, the hunter worked for it, but without standards you will have issues with overshooting and enabling bad actors.

Also, for all your statements, competition is a human norm. As long as it’s healthy it’s actually good. The issue here is to find a way to turn our natural competitive drive to a positive force. It will be tricky, but you need to do it if you want to prevent unhealthy competition.

Record books don't drive proper wildlife management and wildlife management shouldn't drive record books.

I'm all for competition with oneself - doing things as a competition against others for the sake of some imaginary "win," is really shallow and insecure.

Harry Selby loathed the record book - told me he had seen many more than one great hunt ruined the moment the client pulled out the tape...

I agree with this sentiment.

quote:

Originally posted by SafariSean:
Between the 2 Chete Safari Area Buffalo taken last season seen in the pictures below which one do you think is the better trophy??

First picture is a real trophy.

Non of those soft bosses, wide SCI seem to glorify.

We have a system, which has been used for years, the RW system, why not stick to it??

SCI made their own silly system to make sure we have some silly competitions, that is the whole purpose of all SCI's measurements.

Nothing else!

No difference than trying to invent the wheel!

How would one go about a scoring system for old and worn buffalo? I can see those wanting to get into the book scoring a small immature buffalo. Maybe a scoring system with a photo?
Cal

I was discussing this very thing yesterday, with the fellow I am hunting Buffalo with in August.

His answer was short and perfect.

The best trophy bull is one that is old, and close.

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
A trophy is made by the eye of the beholder.

Most people want an old mature bull. A good outfitter gets them to one.

Bingo Ann

I'm so old I can remember when record book entries were at least supposed to honor the animal rather than the hunter...

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
A trophy is made by the eye of the beholder.

Most people want an old mature bull. A good outfitter gets them to one.

Bingo Ann

Not strictly true at all.

Many silly individuals arrive in camp with a shopping list of what they want to shoot.

I was told about a hunter arriving in camp, handing the professional hunter a list like this:

Monday, 1st day of hunt - I would, like to shoot zebra
2nd Warthog
3rd impala
4th sable
5 kudu
6 buffalo
7 buffalo

etc.

I am not kidding!

Others arrive with a tape measure, they want a Gold medal this, a Gold medal that.

Just like going to the supermarket to do your weekly shopping!

The memory of the hunt is the trophy to me.

My first buffalo, in the Selous, I caught a full-on charge. Score-wise, he's no big deal. But he's an incredible trophy to me!!

I shot a buffalo in Matetsi 3 at EIGHT yards with my open-sighted 458 Lott. Helluva memory, and that's what counts.

But if I took a hard-bossed mid-forties bull, I'll be doing another shoulder mount.

I would rather hunt a scrum cap/broken horn dugga boy over a 40+inch bull.

They are true trophies to me, just think what those old guys have been through to get to that age.

And those old guys are more likely to give trouble too!

I would to if I had been chased by Lions most of my life

For me this is a fine buffalo

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
For me this is a fine buffalo

Yep, absolutely.
I have a 44" hard boss bull that I don't value as much as some very old 36" with worn horns and a really good hunt.
The hunt is important not the inches.
Still don't understand all that tape measure BS.
To me these people are not hunters.........
Guess SCI has created this.
The bull needs to be old and the hunt needs to be good everything else don't matter.

I like wide spread it looks pretty. But I didn’t shot this bull last year because it was soft.



And I was absolutely happy with this old warrior few years ago



Actually I don’t care about scoring methods because I don’t take part in competitions)))

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
For me this is a fine buffalo

Albeit looking like a "pick up" it is nevertheless a grand old warrior worthy of a place on the mantlepiece.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
For me this is a fine buffalo

Albeit looking like a "pick up" it is nevertheless a grand old warrior worthy of a place on the mantlepiece.

Yes a pick up and probably succumbed to Lion.

I do not care for the SCI system at all ! It serves no purpose other than to be a vetting system for a competition. They even made up their own species classification system to satisfy the competition.

Rowland Ward on the other hand was and still is a useful tool to record species traits specifically the trait of horn size and where the animal was shot or picked up. RW was a taxidermist and naturalist and this was in a big way part of his legacy and contribution to the world of natural sciences.

If you were a prospective hunter to Africa it gives you an idea of where the "best trophies " in terms of a desired trait can be found


It was not designed to be a competition per se, it gives no reward, no trophy other than a certificate of your entry. The certificate only records the horn dimensions not ranking.

Having said that some turned it into a unofficial competition because in the book entries are ranked from high to low with the low being a arbitrary decided minimum for entry into the book.

The origins of the RW records harks back to a time where Museums, Museum collecting and Museum taxidermy was big business. Museums and museum collections were important places of natural history study and therefore record keeping was very important.

Current systems are just fine. Bottom buff definitely a better wall hanger.

Wanting buff hunters to pay top dollar to basically cull old buffalo on their last legs is just a scam IMO.

Leave those old timers to the lions.

Maybe we should just score buffalo on how long their ball sack hangs?

And for lions we can judge them on how many teeth they are missing?

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
Current systems are just fine. Bottom buff definitely a better wall hanger.

Strongly disagree as the bull in the bottom photo is the very definition of being soft bossed.

Wanting buff hunters to pay top dollar to basically cull old buffalo on their last legs is just a scam IMO.

Actually, the scam as you cal it, is convincing hunters to pay top dollar to shoot young soft bossed bulls simply because of their spread, not placing value on quality of hunting experience.

Leave those old timers to the lions.

They only become old timers by developing a strong defense, making them the more challenging animal to pursue.

Maybe we should just score buffalo on how long their ball sack hangs?

Which is exactly what shooting soft bossed bulls based on spread is all about!

And for lions we can judge them on how many teeth they are missing?

Probably a good idea if the conservation through hunting model of only taking the older no longer breeding males is as important as we profess it to be.

BH63

But as always, JMHO. YMMV.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I do not care for the SCI system at all ! It serves no purpose other than to be a vetting system for a competition. They even made up their own species classification system to satisfy the competition.

Rowland Ward on the other hand was and still is a useful tool to record species traits specifically the trait of horn size and where the animal was shot or picked up. RW was a taxidermist and naturalist and this was in a big way part of his legacy and contribution to the world of natural sciences.

If you were a prospective hunter to Africa it gives you an idea of where the "best trophies " in terms of a desired trait can be found


It was not designed to be a competition per se, it gives no reward, no trophy other than a certificate of your entry. The certificate only records the horn dimensions not ranking.

Having said that some turned it into a unofficial competition because in the book entries are ranked from high to low with the low being a arbitrary decided minimum for entry into the book.

The origins of the RW records harks back to a time where Museums, Museum collecting and Museum taxidermy was big business. Museums and museum collections were important places of natural history study and therefore record keeping was very important.

You do realize that RW does not asses boss development at all? It’s purely width, heck, the record buffalo head in RW is a cow. Yes, it’s more exclusive in that it’s harder to meet RW minimums, which if you are anti competition actually is a negative.

My feeling is that, much like abortion, you will never get agreement on record books. Some like them, some don’t... but if RW is OK, then so is any other one- your choice of which you want to use is personal preference.

My goal with what I suggested is to get the record book trophies both more in line with what is best practices (shooting older animals) and what most folks consider prime trophies (hard bosses). While I appreciate that ideally record books should have no impact on practices in the field, it’s pretty self evident that they do drive what a hunter chooses to pursue. I don’t hear too many folks stating they would rather shoot a 32” old buffalo vs a similarly aged and hunted 40+” buffalo.

If a common lament is the bad behavior of shooting young bulls for higher scores, why not remove the temptation? Seems common sense to me. Because you are not going to get rid of record books, you are not going to get rid of competitive behavior in a type A personality world, and you are not going to change anything by insulting the folks you disagree with.

If B&C can deduct points for various flaws in symmetry, certainly all the African books (including RW) can deduct for immaturity.

The second bull is not soft at all.

It is a mature bull, and some never get hard in the middle either.

Genetics plays a big way in the formation of the boss, and whether it actually closes or not.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The second bull is not soft at all.

It is a mature bull, and some never get hard in the middle either.

Genetics plays a big way in the formation of the boss, and whether it actually closes or not.

Saeed, I'm not talking bout whether the boss closes or not and not even whether or not the middle gets hard. It's harder to see on the left horn due to the angle of the photo, but look at the boss on the right horn. See that line running diagonally from the back and opening outwards toward the front, then the soft tissue between that line and the center of the bosses? Also, look at the front and front right corner of the right horn boss area. See that soft tissue. That's the definition of a soft boss as I understand it.

Another way to visualize it is to imagine this bull as a Euro mount, where all the soft tissue is removed. This bull will have that very distinctive upside down "V" at the front. Compare that to the photo of the picked up skull Andrew's son is holding. That horn is hard all the way into the front corners and yes, the bosses are not closed.

Interesting aside, I Googled photos of Buffalo to see if I could find some additional photos of soft bossed bulls.

Found this photo of me with my first buffalo on the AfricanSkyHunting.co.za website. Looked through the list of PHs. I don't know these guys at all. Never heard of any of them, yet they are using my trophy shot as a marketing aid.

Not the first time I've found RSA outfitters poaching my photos.

I'll try to post it here. First attempt at posting photos since the Photobucket debacle so bear with me if it doesn't post correctly the first time.


https://lh3.googleusercontent....7Trmvpuqnr5xob=w2400

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The second bull is not soft at all.

It is a mature bull, and some never get hard in the middle either.

Genetics plays a big way in the formation of the boss, and whether it actually closes or not.

Saeed, I'm not talking bout whether the boss closes or not and not even whether or not the middle gets hard. It's harder to see on the left horn due to the angle of the photo, but look at the boss on the right horn. See that line running diagonally from the back and opening outwards toward the front, then the soft tissue between that line and the center of the bosses? Also, look at the front and front right corner of the right horn boss area. See that soft tissue. That's the definition of a soft boss as I understand it.

Another way to visualize it is to imagine this bull as a Euro mount, where all the soft tissue is removed. This bull will have that very distinctive upside down "V" at the front. Compare that to the photo of the picked up skull Andrew's son is holding. That horn is hard all the way into the front corners and yes, the bosses are not closed.

Todd,

Both are mature but the first is ancient. The boss on the buffalo in question does have a hard edge. I would not say he was soft but he is not that old.

I'll defer to your expertise Andrew.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The second bull is not soft at all.

It is a mature bull, and some never get hard in the middle either.

Genetics plays a big way in the formation of the boss, and whether it actually closes or not.

Saeed, I'm not talking bout whether the boss closes or not and not even whether or not the middle gets hard. It's harder to see on the left horn due to the angle of the photo, but look at the boss on the right horn. See that line running diagonally from the back and opening outwards toward the front, then the soft tissue between that line and the center of the bosses? Also, look at the front and front right corner of the right horn boss area. See that soft tissue. That's the definition of a soft boss as I understand it.

Another way to visualize it is to imagine this bull as a Euro mount, where all the soft tissue is removed. This bull will have that very distinctive upside down "V" at the front. Compare that to the photo of the picked up skull Andrew's son is holding. That horn is hard all the way into the front corners and yes, the bosses are not closed.

Todd,

Both are mature but the first is ancient. The boss on the buffalo in question does have a hard edge. I would not say he was soft but he is not that old.

Exactly Andrew.

We have had this discussion in the field many times, as we come across many bulls that seem to have their own classifications.

I have seen very old bulls, which have a hairy patch between the horns??

I have seen bulls that have horns with no boss at all, and the forehead is very narrow, just like a cow.

Nature has so many surprises for us.

I have seen a hartebeast with no balls!

No sign of them at all, although he had a dick.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Interesting aside, I Googled photos of Buffalo to see if I could find some additional photos of soft bossed bulls.

Found this photo of me with my first buffalo on the AfricanSkyHunting.co.za website. Looked through the list of PHs. I don't know these guys at all. Never heard of any of them, yet they are using my trophy shot as a marketing aid.

Not the first time I've found RSA outfitters poaching my photos.

I'll try to post it here. First attempt at posting photos since the Photobucket debacle so bear with me if it doesn't post correctly the first time.


https://lh3.googleusercontent....7Trmvpuqnr5xob=w2400

Nice buff. But I think I know the beauty queen of a rifle that took it

Stealing photos of the internet - that is low. Another outfitter that is a crook.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'll defer to your expertise Andrew.

We would discuss this and really it would be your decision.

However I have seen a lot of buffalo shot that I would not consider mature and these were truly soft. Positively spongy.

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'll defer to your expertise Andrew.

We would discuss this and really it would be your decision.

However I have seen a lot of buffalo shot that I would not consider mature and these were truly soft. Positively spongy.

Cheers

Yep. I'd pass on that bull more than likely. Depends on the hunt really. If it was standing in the open at distance after an easy stalk, no question ... Pass. If it was up close in thick jess after a hard fought hunt ... maybe, but I'd rather take an older one. I passed on one like that back in 2010 after a long stalk. Still had 6 days remaining to hunt so passed. Didn't get another opportunity on that trip. Left happy with my decision. Never regretted it. Still don't.