Hi Guys,

Okay standing around with bunch of fellow hunters and PH's discussing ammo and in particular heads, Barnes triple-shock X bullet came up and one guy suggested that if in a tight spot it might save the day(in the positive light)

If any of you guys have used it please post pics or some info on it, good and bad. thanks.

PS - i know Buzz hates them

Question:
What are your thoughts on it, i understand that if you have used up your solids(hopefully you dont shoot that bad) and have say a triple shock left, its better than nothing

Choices:
Dont have it in the first place
It works, i have used it before

 

I am not a fan of TSX's for anything but thin-skinned game (deer, elk, antelope) in my 7MM or 300's. In the 375 H&H I use 260 grain Nosler AccuBonds for PG. I saw a couple of dismal failures on buff this past summer with 270 and 300 X-bullets, and wouldn't use them myself.

When we were hunting both my buff and ele, I carried both 400 DGX and DGS until the end of day 4, in either my 416 Ruger or 450/400. After taking my buff, it was ele only for the next week. If just hunting ele, I would not have anything but solids with me. Neither did my PH.

quote:

Originally posted by Blank:
I am not a fan of TSX's for anything but thin-skinned game (deer, elk, antelope) in my 7MM or 300's. In the 375 H&H I use 260 grain Nosler AccuBonds for PG. I saw a couple of dismal failures on buff this past summer with 270 and 300 X-bullets, and wouldn't use them myself.

When we were hunting both my buff and ele, I carried both 400 DGX and DGS until the end of day 4, in either my 416 Ruger or 450/400. After taking my buff, it was ele only for the next week. If just hunting ele, I would not have anything but solids with me. Neither did my PH.

+1

I love accubonds for PG also Fed. Trophy bonded bear claws
solids for ele ++++

I am a Nosler fan, but the Barnes TSX's proved themselves recently on the trip to Moz. They are probably the #1 choice for me on anything short of ele.

TSX in Moz = 2 Cape Buff; 2 Hippo; 1 Croc; 2 Sable, nosler for the Leopard. .375 and 9.3 X 62 cartidges.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Blank - I am assuming the "TSX bullet failures" were recovered from "dead" animals? So just maybe they weren't failures at all? Could it be that "poor shot placement" was more the issue? Just wondering out loud.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Blank:
I am not a fan of TSX's for anything but thin-skinned game (deer, elk, antelope) in my 7MM or 300's. In the 375 H&H I use 260 grain Nosler AccuBonds for PG. I saw a couple of dismal failures on buff this past summer with 270 and 300 X-bullets, and wouldn't use them myself.

When we were hunting both my buff and ele, I carried both 400 DGX and DGS until the end of day 4, in either my 416 Ruger or 450/400. After taking my buff, it was ele only for the next week. If just hunting ele, I would not have anything but solids with me. Neither did my PH.

It would be interesting to see the results if someone could test a couple on a downed elephant.

Larry: Yep, my bad. I'm guilty of that age-old mis-statement - they were dead animals, so it worked. In the cases of both buff, however, it required additional shots. They were all 375 H&H. I am not anti Barnes; in fact I love the 160 TSX in my 7MM Rem Mag and swear by them for elk. I just wouldn't have them on me in Africa, as a personal choice.

One pinched the hollow point closed, so expansion never occured and it penciled. One bent over about 30 degrees at the tip, and veered totally off course thru the animal with out opening. The last hit some light brush in front of the animal on a finishing shot by the appy, and went in perfectly sideways from about 10 yards. Because of that entry, the bullet appeared to reverse and parachute, breaking off all 4 petals. There was another on a buff bull, which was lost, and don't know what happened there - very expensive test!

I've had really good luck with them on African game.

7 buffalo, croc, hippo, and 20-some head of plains animals with either the 375 or 416 varieties.

I had more problems with the high velocity loadings of the TBBC than with the Barnes- not terminal performance, but with the bullet doing strange things in flight- tumbling, errant flight, extreme changes in flight with shooting through light cover. Probably more an issue with stabilization in my rifle.

If its all I had and it was an Elephant charge, I would have at it. If it was all that I had with an Elephant hunt, I would only do heart/lung shots, although they did fine with a brain shot on the hippo, it did shed all but one petal. I wouldn't call that a failure- it went through and hit the brain, but I would suggest that softs on thick skinned heavy animals are not a good choice.

As many have said here before, its placement more than what bullet you use, within some reason.

quote:

Originally posted by Blank:
Larry: Yep, my bad. I'm guilty of that age-old mis-statement - they were dead animals, so it worked. In the cases of both buff, however, it required additional shots. They were all 375 H&H. I am not anti Barnes; in fact I love the 160 TSX in my 7MM Rem Mag and swear by them for elk. I just wouldn't have them on me in Africa, as a personal choice.

One pinched the hollow point closed, so expansion never occured and it penciled. One bent over about 30 degrees at the tip, and veered totally off course thru the animal with out opening. The last hit some light brush in front of the animal on a finishing shot by the appy, and went in perfectly sideways from about 10 yards. Because of that entry, the bullet appeared to reverse and parachute, breaking off all 4 petals. There was another on a buff bull, which was lost, and don't know what happened there - very expensive test!

The first one penciled (like solid) but didn't exit? How far did it penetrate?

The second one bent? On what?

On the third one you hit some brush first and are blaming the bullet because it hit sideways?

2 Buff for me w/ .375 Barnes TSX...no problems...good kills. Someone posted on here once about a brain shot on ele with Barnes-X. Said it worked fine...don't know personally.

Frank: None of them were mine, so who am I to say. My hunting partner was disappointed, tho. I just attended the autopsies at the skinning shed.
1. All the way to the other side.
2. Shoulder bone, from the looks of the carcass.
3. Wasn't there to see it, but I wouldn't have shot thru any brush with one.

Charles,
That was the one I remembered.

TSX's performed flawlessly on our plainsgame hunt last summer. I shot a big eland bull with my 300 win mag,...great penatration and expansion. My son shot 140 grains TSX in his 7mm-08 with great results on black & blue wildebeast, oryx, hartebeast and warthog.

Had to make an unplaned landing and over night stay in an adjacent Safari area due to fading light on the way into Chewore Safari area once.
In that camp there was a chap and his PH that had spent a few day following up a wounded Ele into another Safari area. They never did find that Ele.
The bullet used was a 416 X.

I would use the TSX's on anything up to but not including ele. They have performed flawlessly in my 375RUM, including buff. They shoot extremely well for me in 375RUM, 416 Rigby, and 7mm-08.
The answer to your question on elephant is bring more solids.

The definition of "An accident waiting to happen!" use of any soft point on elephant.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Had to make an unplaned landing and over night stay in an adjacent Safari area due to fading light on the way into Chewore Safari area once.
In that camp there was a chap and his PH that had spent a few day following up a wounded Ele into another Safari area. They never did find that Ele.
The bullet used was a 416 X.

That's just irresponsible, particularly if the PH was aware of the situation. Only excuse would be if the elephant had charged while they were hunting something else and had to shoot what was in the rifle.

The PHs in this case were not impressed with his use of the X on the Ele but I don't know what was discussed prior to its use.

I'm no revolutionary (or idiot) on this subject, and so I too believe in solids for elephant.

And so I always have solids up the spout and in the magazine when chasing elephant.

So, it's hard to imagine the circumstances.

But I would use a TSX, in .458 or larger caliber, for a side brain shot or a heart or lung shot on elephant - with the greatest of confidence.

I have seen how far they will penetrate, and it is plenty far enough.

quote:

But I would use a TSX, in .458 or larger caliber, for a side brain shot or a heart or lung shot on elephant - with the greatest of confidence.

agreed!

quote:

a heart or lung shot on elephant - with the greatest of confidence.

Potentially...if you were sure this was going to be your first shot...TSX might be to "best" option.

I believe the TSX will do what it is intended to. I do remember someone here on AR shooting rhino, bull ele with X bullets out of a 460 W. pushing them at Weatherby velocities and they did a job on both animals.

Definately on a side brain shot. Like many say solids if pursuing eles.


Mike

. . . problem is that in hunting elephant you do not always get to choose the shot you are going to take. Load solids and leave the TSX for buffalo and plainsgame.

It wouldn't be my first choice by any means if I was hunting elephant. But, if I was hunting something else where using softs was the norm and ended having an encounter with an elephant that required shooting, I would hope that I had TSX's in my rifle.

The only two I've recovered were fired out of a .300 Win Mag at over 3200 fps. At that velocity, the petals sheared off, leaving what was basically a monolithic solid. I don't know if the shank portion would have enough power to penetrate the skull on an elephant, but I would guess that it would be more likely to do so than any other expanding bullet.

Pete

Let's add some common sense to this discussion. Those of you that have taken more than two or three elephants will have a better understanding of what I am saying.

Why would you want to use any soft point on elephant? The only reason I can see is to increase the amount of tissue damage. To do that you have to give up penetration. When a soft point expands, physics tells us that resistance to the bullet increases and penetration is sacrificed. So the question than becomes,is the increased tissue damage worth the loss of some level of penetration?

On a perfect side brain shot (one that encounters no bone more than the brain case) some softs from some calibers could penetrate to the brain. But how common is that perfect shot. In a couple of dozen elephants, I have only seen it three times. If you have to go through other bones such as the zygomatic arch, lower jaw or the ascending ramus of the lower jaw, your soft will probably not make it. The most common occurrence is for the elephant to sense you just as you are lining up for a side brain shot and he or she turns to look at you in the head high position. This means you have to penetrate several feet of trunk muscle, skull bone and sundry other bones such as vertebrae. Also the worst case scenario is to have to penetrate the tusk socket. That bone has been known to stop 500 nitros. The soft, no matter how good it is won't make it. With a soft you have to pass on this shot.

On a chest shot you will probably get some added tissue damage over a solid but I submit that it is unneeded. Elephants are not hard to kill on high lung/heart shots, in fact I think they are rather soft in this regard. I have taken several using solids with this shot and have never had one go more than 100 yards, most fall within 40 or 50 yards and one only went 20 ft. The heart/lung area is huge. At least the size of two human chests. If you can't hit it at 25 yards, max range your PH will let you take one, you better spend more time on the range.

When you approach elephant you never know what will happen and you better be prepared to handle what ever shot is presented. Only a good solid will handle all situations.

465H&H

quote:

. . problem is that in hunting elephant you do not always get to choose the shot you are going to take. Load solids and leave the TSX for buffalo and plainsgame.

Agreed...Agreed!!! I qualified my statement above saying; "if you knew for sure"! And I stand by that. If you did know for 100% for sure you were going to take a broad-side Heart/Lung shot on an ele (again 100% for sure)...TSX might be best choice.

quote:

When you approach elephant you never know what will happen and you better be prepared to handle what ever shot is presented. Only a good solid will handle all situations.

Totally agree!!!

I do believe the post was just asking if one could kill an ele with a tsx on a side brain shot.
All of us here would not be hunting eles with the TSX but only solids in our belts.
As for TSX failure why would one shoot a lite bullet for buf when 300gr and 350 gr bullets are available from Barnes. The failure for a bullet to open comes from our mistake of not checking the ammo to see if the tips are bent shut. Remember they are hollow points and dropped or slammed back and forth in a magazine box they will deform. How do I know because I looked at my ammo as I loaded and unloaded the rifle.
I have also seen soft point spitzers with severely damaged tips shoot low at 100yds.
There plenty of pics of solids bending upon hitting an eles big bones..

Mike

my advice is that the weapon you are carrying needs to be able to stop a charge from the animal you are hunting ...i would not trust a tsx to do so

yes i do guide bowhunters on elephant from time to time but they understand ahead of time that if i kill a bull in a charge with my rifle , thats their trophy

Just pull the bullet from the brass, turn 180 degrees, reinsert into brass, and shoot. Just like some of the old hands used to do with .270 Win softs after they shot all of their big bore solids.

Having shot an ele bull with a revolver (.41 mag)and seen several others taken with relatively marginal weapons...yup- on a perfect angle set up you will get away with it from any high velocity number (.375 H&H, .416, .458 Lott).

465's post is superbly accurate regarding hunting ele...for a guide though, if for some reason you have chambered a X bullet and get charged by an ele, from a square on frontal you should reach the brain. If the ele is absolutely square on to you, you do not need a rifle possesed of fantastic penetration. Heck, even a .45-70 will work . It would be better if the bullet lost its petals like some of the French X type bullets are prone to doing if they meet too much resistance.

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:
my advice is that the weapon you are carrying needs to be able to stop a charge from the animal you are hunting ...i would not trust a tsx to do so

yes i do guide bowhunters on elephant from time to time but they understand ahead of time that if i kill a bull in a charge with my rifle , thats their trophy

Both points are nicely made.

I don't think there are many people who have used the Barnes X 300 grain 375 caliber bullet on as many game animals as I have.

And I have never encountered a single failure.

I have seen them penetrate as much as a round nose solid in a zebra - lengthways.

I would not use them out of choice on elephants, but, if there is no choice, I dount there is any better bullets.

Ganyana:

I've read years back (I believe, but am not certain at this remove, by Kevin Robertson in Precision Shooting) of an elephant being killed by a .22LR (again, from memory) in Zim (or maybe not? ). Have you ever heard of such an occurrence and can you confirm it?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I don't think there are many people who have used the Barnes X 300 grain 375 caliber bullet on as many game animals as I have.

And I have never encountered a single failure.

I have seen them penetrate as much as a round nose solid in a zebra - lengthways.

I would not use them out of choice on elephants, but, if there is no choice, I dount there is any better bullets.

I can't argue with that statement. I would do everything possible to not get into the position that I was cahrged by an elephant when I had a soft in the chamber, but if it did happen the TSX would be the bullet I would hope to be there.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Having shot an ele bull with a revolver (.41 mag)and seen several others taken with relatively marginal weapons...yup- on a perfect angle set up you will get away with it from any high velocity number (.375 H&H, .416, .458 Lott).

465's post is superbly accurate regarding hunting ele...for a guide though, if for some reason you have chambered a X bullet and get charged by an ele, from a square on frontal you should reach the brain. If the ele is absolutely square on to you, you do not need a rifle possesed of fantastic penetration. Heck, even a .45-70 will work . It would be better if the bullet lost its petals like some of the French X type bullets are prone to doing if they meet too much resistance.

After Dallas i bought some Barnes bullets for my 458 with the decision that the triple shock x bullets would be used on buff and smaller and the solids on elephant

Barnes Banded Solids - 450 GR FB for my .458 wm FN supreme and intend using them as primary buttel on elephant.

Once the elephant is down i will do some tests on 450 GR triple shock X bullets and will report back.

i have yet to do load tests, chrono tests on them and it will be interesting to see what the outcome is.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I don't think there are many people who have used the Barnes X 300 grain 375 caliber bullet on as many game animals as I have.

And I have never encountered a single failure.

I have seen them penetrate as much as a round nose solid in a zebra - lengthways.

I would not use them out of choice on elephants, but, if there is no choice, I dount there is any better bullets.

I can't argue with that statement. I would do everything possible to not get into the position that I was cahrged by an elephant when I had a soft in the chamber, but if it did happen the TSX would be the bullet I would hope to be there.

465H&H

Saeed, i have yet to use them and im looking forward to putting many through my 458. from what the engineer (Tim) at Barnes has to say the same as you regarding having a soft in the chamber

The one expanding bullet that I would rather have, if it came to that, would be the North Fork Cup Point.

In fact, I've been wanting to try the Cup Point on a dead cow and bull ele to see how much they would penetrate, in body shots, frontal and side shots. Testing by Mike reveals 20% less penetration in gellatin with the Cup Point than the FN solids. How much that changes with big rib bones and in the head is a question I am interested in answering.

I know that the 450gr .458" North Fork FN solid at 2220fps won't penetrate a bull's tusk socket and the ivory in it because I inadvertantly tried it on an insurance shot. I did make it about half way through the ivory. It deformed greatly and looked like a squashed banana.

JPK

JPK,

I also can't argue with your logic. I didn't include it as a soft point because to me it is more solid than soft. More like the GSC bullets made to expand minimally.

465H&H