Well, not to stir the pot, but today I took my .416 Rem out to practice/work up loads for a hunt in September in Tanz.

I don't know what I did (haven't pulled the bullets yet), but I had a really hot load. Could not open the bolt except with a lot of force. Getting the bolt open only happened when I stepped on it with my foot. The case stayed in the chamber, not matter how hard I tried to get it out.

Punching it out with a cleaning rod was a piece of cake.

Just shows that CRF rifles are not foolpooof (and yea, I felt like a fool).

To follow up, the load was a published max and the loads were scaled correctly (just pulled the bullets). The rifle has never showed pressure signs using other components. This load used ball powder, and it was over 100 deg today in AZ.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that max loads in a 416 REM in extremely hot weather is a no-no.

That particular round is already high pressure. Higher heat outside exacerbates it.

But hey thats why we should practice. Nothing stupid bought finding things out on the range.

If your rifle had been a Mauser with self-locking extractor, it might not have left the case behind.

Winchester M70's, Ruger Mark II's, Dakota 76's, etc. do not have the little bevel on the extractor that makes it self-locking. They may be CRF, but they are not CRE (Controlled Round Extraction) like a true Mauser, or even a CZ 550, and its forerunner the BRNO ZKK 602.

I have found that a heavy rubber mallet applied to the bolt handle of the CZ .505 Gibbs will extract the A-Square case nicely, after the bolt is hammered shut on one of those. If it was not CRE it would probably let the extractor pop over the rim of that one too. Never fear, CZ is here with the critical Mauser feature.

On June 9 of this year I had a case stick in the chamber of the Kimber 8400 270 WSM. This is the first time it's happened in decades. On the other hand it's the first ball powder that I have shot in hot weather in decades.

The load was 74 grs of Mag Pro pushing the 140 Ballistic tip with 215's. I used 74.5 gr's last fall for hunting but that was not at 85 F. That's it for Mag Pro. For those who must know the velocity was 3380 fps instrumental.

I could not get the case out with the .22 cleaning rod at the range.

It seems as if the Kimber 8400 does not have a locking extractor.

quote:

Originally posted by TheBigGuy:
I seem to remember reading somewhere that max loads in a 416 REM in extremely hot weather is a no-no.

That particular round is already high pressure. Higher heat outside exacerbates it.

But hey thats why we should practice. Nothing stupid bought finding things out on the range.

I shot max loads of Varget and RL15 without problems. I hunt with Swift A Frames, but I practice with Hornady RNs, and they recently redesigned them; don't know if that has anything to do with it; I would really doubt it.

For what it's worth I finally remembered where I read about hot weather and the 416 REM. Might be worth it too you.

Chuck Hawks on 416 Rigby and Rem

Did Hornady also change the load data with the new bullet design?

What is funny is that I shoot my .416 a lot, and since I live in AZ, hot weather is the norm. I am going to stick with either Varget or RL15, with Varget getting the nod all else equal.

Not trying to stir the pot here, but why would you want to shoot near max loads on a hunt presumably for Dangerous Game in tropical heat?

From what I have read of recounts of these dangerous game hunts the ranges that most of these animals are shot, are usually from close to "real" close. Inside 100 yards, with most being counted in 50 yards and closer.

Even the "toughest" bullets can be driven beyond their design parameters, which could lead to terminal ballistics failure when you really don't need terminal ballistics.

I would think that caution should rule the day?
Just my opine.

Rusty:

It is a lot hotter in AZ than anywhere in sub-Sahara Africa, so if the load is safe here in the summer, I have no worries.

I really don't think it was the heat, however. I say that not being a huge fan of ball powder justt beacause they are temperature sensitve.

As for the range, I want to be prepared for shots to 200 yards. I had such a shot a few years ago. If you watch Saeed's video, he certainly didn't shoot everything within 50 yards.

AZ, you're smart to work up your African hunting loads at this time of year. In fact, I try to work up all of my hunting loads during the summer if I can, which I especially intend to work on this week while it's 90 degrees up here.

In my 416 Rem., I've found that IMR 4064 with CCI benchrest primers has given the best accuracy and highest velocity with the least pressure, and I've also found that primers have a big impact on pressure. Of course that set of components might not work very well in your rifle..........

I have a question: If I remember correctly, your rifle is a Model 70. Do you have one of the MIM extractors on your 416, or have you replaced it with a machined, spring-steel extractor from Wisner's?

AD

Almost every year on the PH proficiency exam in the Zambezi Valley we see problems with .416 Rem rounds or most often, A combination of .416 Rem's in a Rem 700 rifle.

Average daytime temp on the exam is 100F, Humdidity in the camp (on the Kariba shore line) arround 90%. Rifles left loaded and in the sun (not that there is much shade in October) and there are frequent pressure problems. At least two local manufactures of ammo have down graded their loads slightly to stop these odd pressure spikes.

Also, on much of the ammo we see that has been kept for any length of time (mostly Federal- the only American Brand Available) the bullets start to Pull out of the cases. About five years ago some tests were run on the ammo after a particularly bad year on the proficiency exam and velocities ranged from 2200fps to 2480fps for Federal Factory rounds.

Would much prefer your rounds to come out at 2350fps with no hint of pressure or compressed powder than at full spec with problems.

Also, if the powder is a compressed load, that is fine for you- it won't be a problem for several years but it may be if you leave your left over ammo behind as a "tip". At least warn the recipient!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
If your rifle had been a Mauser with self-locking extractor, it might not have left the case behind.

Winchester M70's, Ruger Mark II's, Dakota 76's, etc. do not have the little bevel on the extractor that makes it self-locking. They may be CRF, but they are not CRE (Controlled Round Extraction) like a true Mauser, or even a CZ 550, and its forerunner the BRNO ZKK 602.

Men of taste insist on a true Mauser action (or a true copy thereof, or a CZ550 with safety and bolt handle changed).

AZ,
I understand the powder issue, I just don't see why max loads are needed. I don't think Saeed uses a .416 at long ranges?

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Well, not to stir the pot, but today I took my .416 Rem out to practice/work up loads for a hunt in September in Tanz.

I don't know what I did (haven't pulled the bullets yet), but I had a really hot load. Could not open the bolt except with a lot of force. Getting the bolt open only happened when I stepped on it with my foot. The case stayed in the chamber, not matter how hard I tried to get it out.

Punching it out with a cleaning rod was a piece of cake.

Just shows that CRF rifles are not foolpooof (and yea, I felt like a fool).

If the rifle had blown up with your, obviously overloaded round, would that have been the fault of CRF as well! Anything can be pushed past it's limit, and I submit, if this round had been in a Mod 700 you would have a bolt without a handle before you got the rifle open, and I assure you, the extractor would be toast as well!

I simply don't see the need for your comment at all, because this failier had nothing at all to do with the feeding system or the inherant weakness of the extractor, but an over zelous handloader! Anything can be destroyed if you use a large enough hammer!

Like you I'm not a fan of ball powders, in anything! I hunt in the desert a lot in 100+ tempratures, and I found long ago, that ball powders cause problems. Addtionally, I, like Rusty, see absolutely no benifite from useing max loads in a rifle like 416 Rem Mag, when a little slower is better in all ways. I assure you a Buffalo, or a dik dik will not know the difference when hit at 150 fps slower. Penetration will be better anyway, while the trejectory will be as close to the same as heavy loads you will not be handicaped in any way, for long range. Even IMR 4064 is a little fast for this round. RL-15 is OK but uncompressed loads on H4831 might be even better. It is your rifle, however, and your hunt!

Who says the .416 Rem does not have pressure problems?

I did the same thing to a Cooper .223 a few weeks ago.

quote:

Who says the .416 Rem does not have pressure problems?

I use Rel 15 in the 416 Rem Mag, Living in the Redding area with days pushing 110°± I have never experienced any problems.

My loads Chrony out at 2600 fps with a 350 grain A Frame. I don't feel pushing any higher serves any purpose unless you feel bragging rights for loading at a gazillion fps is important.

I don't think the 416 Rem. Mag. has any more pressure problems than a whole host of other cartridges that are commonly used in Africa and that develope about the same SAAMI pressures that the 416 Rem. does. For example:

458 Winchester
416 Weatherby
378 Weatherby
375 H&H
300 Weatherby
300 Winchester
300 H&H
338 Winchester
7mm Remington
270 Winchester, etc., etc........

ANY cartridge can become problematic in terms of pressures if under the right set of circumstances. The 416 Rem's no wose than the iconic 375 H&H in that department.

AD

The 416 RM just has to be a regular cartridge in terms of pressure as Allen says. Of course CRF does have anything to do with it either.

My memory goes back to the keg of Ball C and me standing in a field in the hot sun with primers jaming my good feeding P17. I had never experianced blown primers before. That's the last ball powder that I have ever used and the data was wrong on top of it's apparant heat sensitivity.

To be correct about it all I am not positive yet that it was the temperature sensitivity of the MagPro which is a ball powder but I don't need ball powder period.

A gun writer not of present company has stated that the 7mm RM is subject to wide pressure fluctuations and is therfore downloaded by the factories. I have not found this to be true in handloading the 7mm RM myself using surplus 4831.

From my research there are cartridges that are known to the ammo loading industry to show "pressure spikes": .243 Win, 7 mm RM, .416 RM; I don't have or know of an explanation.

I did once experience a stuck bolt on a Remington factory .375 H&H 300 grain Swift load in Zim in September -- I figured it was due to sun heating the rifle because the ambient temp wasn't that bad (not over 100 deg F anyway).

jim

So, Hunter Jim, did the bolt fall off?

Mac: No, I wouldn't blame the CRF for a rifle blowup either. I actually have never had a published max load do this before.

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
I don't think the 416 Rem. Mag. has any more pressure problems than a whole host of other cartridges that are commonly used in Africa and that develope about the same SAAMI pressures that the 416 Rem. does. For example:

458 Winchester
416 Weatherby
378 Weatherby
375 H&H
300 Weatherby
300 Winchester
300 H&H
338 Winchester
7mm Remington
270 Winchester, etc., etc........

ANY cartridge can become problematic in terms of pressures if under the right set of circumstances. The 416 Rem's no wose than the iconic 375 H&H in that department.

AD

Actually, that is not an accurate statement. And the list of cartridges above compares apples and oranges due to huge variations in case capacity. Lots of guys run into pressure problems with the 416 Rem because they insist on hitting 2400 fps with a 400 grain bullet, and due to the 416 Rem case capacity, the load must be high pressure to get there. But 2400 fps is easy to get out of a 416 Wby or 416 Rigby with low pressure.

The 375 H&H hits 2550 fps with reasonable pressure, and hits 2400 fps at minimum loads. So no pressure problems there.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
[QUOTE]

I simply don't see the need for your comment at all, !

Well I took his comment about the CRF feed as that where a lot of you praise up that system as though it is vertually perfect, it is as he says NOT foolproof.
And I didn't take anything he said as that CRF wasn't the better system.

Sure you're all experts here but there were a few lessons to be learnt, I think.
EG. A book may have say 6 listings that are not over max., and one in a particular rifle may be.
Esp. with ball powder apparently.
Esp. with 416 Rem., possibly.

I just read an article an AR poster sent me to about the benifits of CRF in Africa, an example was given where a round "fell" out of a push feed, and made out CRF would have stopped that happening, but no mention whatever of any shortcommings. I would hazard a guess that had the shooter kept the rifle upright the round wouldn't have fallen out either.

And I have read of a famous experenced African hunter, on his last shot, ejected his round unnoticed, due to a slight bolt shuffle.
Probably wouldn't happen with a PF.

I'd say. . . Know your system throughly and allow for any known shortcommings, instead of counting something as foolproof.

And the more you all post your problems here, the more I learn, for one.
John L.