quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I can't believe all this whining about the costs. All from a bunch of guys booking hunts that might cost more than $50,000. If you don't like it don't go. You all have a choice.

I certainly do and I'm not going to SCI. It doesn't make a damn to me, but $50,000 hunts are for people much richer than I am IMO, and I'm in the low 7 figure range, but I don't want or care to shoot elephants or other expensive game so I am and have been more than content with much less expensive hunts. As a matter of fact, when I think back on my peak sporting experiences, most of them involve relatively cheap bird hunting, or fishing or, watching my kids hunt or fish. Those are the ones that come to mind instantly and the ones I value the most, even if they cost little or nothing. I hope I've passed the time value of money onto my kids, but how they spend it will be their choice, not mine, since I'll be mostly dead.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I can't believe all this whining about the costs. All from a bunch of guys booking hunts that might cost more than $50,000. If you don't like it don't go. You all have a choice.

I certainly do and I'm not going to SCI. It doesn't make a damn to me, but $50,000 hunts are for people much richer than I am IMO, and I'm in the low 7 figure range, but I don't want or care to shoot elephants or other expensive game so I am and have been more than content with much less expensive hunts. As a matter of fact, when I think back on my peak sporting experiences, most of them involve relatively cheap bird hunting, or fishing or, watching my kids hunt or fish. Those are the ones that come to mind instantly and the ones I value the most, even if they cost little or nothing. I hope I've passed the time value of money onto my kids, but how they spend it will be their choice, not mine, since I'll be mostly dead.

The African hunting industry and other high dollar US and international hunting is in reality not a discretionary income/vacation but an aspirational consumer good.

They would not have to hold convention in massive convention centers to sell their product.

There are way too many outfitters, service providers, product sellers for this activity to be an activity of a few elities. Now a few elites might get subsidized in their awards by the masses.

The story sold is one of old Africa traditions which were largely confined to a bunch of idle rich, ivory poachers and colonial government officials. Not the average dentist or doctor or lawyer engaging in this activity.

Should people spend this kind of dollars of a discretionary aspirational activity ?

One thing is clear to me walking the miles of dsc and sci - this is a mass market business.

Mike

Rather than repeat what has already been written, I have a number of other observations. It seemed to me that Wednesday was relatively speaking pretty busy. Several people commented to me about the lack of attendance on Thursday and Friday. Of course, Thursday and Friday always have more people.

I talked to a number of people who sold goods or services. It is weird. One woman who damn near sold out of her product at DSC says she has hardly sold anything at SCI. Why would that be? Similarly, I have spoken with some outfitters, well known entities, who killed it at DSC but have yet to close a sale at SCI. I have to wonder why? This certainly did not apply to everyone but it was not an inconsequential number of exhibitors.

Purely from a physical aspect, the SCI show is the superior show in my opinion. The walking is far easier on the legs. I am not sure why. It must be the carpet or the padding. There are many more places for one to sit down should they need to do so.


Regardless, they are both a hell of a lot of fun. We get to see a lot of our friends . We get to meet some new friends. For example, we went to lunch with Aziz who graciously discussed his experiences in the "Stan" countries.

I am sure we willbe back for both next year.

quote:

We get to meet some new friends. For example, we went to lunch with Aziz who graciously discussed his experiences in the "Stan" countries.

That would be worth the price of admission...his hunt reports are always some of the best.

Larry - have to agree 100 percent the sci show is much better laid out and easier to navigate.

The sci show has exceeded my expectations.

I will be at dsc and sci next year.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

We get to meet some new friends. For example, we went to lunch with Aziz who graciously discussed his experiences in the "Stan" countries.

That would be worth the price of admission...his hunt reports are always some of the best.

Yes they are. He is also a very nice guy.

I agree with LARRY...one of teh best I have ever been to!! Most I am speaking with are selling out or HAVE sold Out!!

Those who are skeptical are missing the boat!!

Cheers,

I talked to probably 4-5 exhibitors that said SCI was slow and they did better at DSC.

Is that because more folks are going to DSC and its earlier? No idea, but interesting to hear the same thing from multiple folks.

I found the auctions fascinating.

In the future I will be spending a lot more time at dsc and sci at the auctions.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I found the auctions fascinating.

In the future I will be spending a lot more time at dsc and sci at the auctions.

Mike

Here at SCI, I didn't talk to anyone that said they did great at both SCI and Dallas. The guys that did well in Dallas didn't do so great here at SCI, and the guys that did poorly in Dallas did well at SCI. My sample size was not all that big, but included both hunting and fishing outfits. I found their feedback a little surprising.

We really enjoyed SCI, but we were only able to attend Saturday. We definitely could have used another day.

Some of the vendors who really reported slow activity earlier in the week reported drastic increases today.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I found the auctions fascinating.

In the future I will be spending a lot more time at dsc and sci at the auctions.

Mike

Here at SCI, I didn't talk to anyone that said they did great at both SCI and Dallas. The guys that did well in Dallas didn't do so great here at SCI, and the guys that did poorly in Dallas did well at SCI. My sample size was not all that big, but included both hunting and fishing outfits. I found their feedback a little surprising.

I am not totally surprised.

i think there are a lot of people who book in dallas. I think a lot of Dallas members come to sci too but sci has a unique profile.

I also think Dallas and Houston purchases are much more oil/energy commodity price dependent.

I thought Dallas was much more crowded but that might just be the layout of shows,

I actually think sci and dsc complement each other and it's much better for the hunting industry to have two shows to sell their expensive products.

I am just really surprised the biggest hunting show in Europe at the same time as sci.

Sci has a much stronger European presence than dsc - outfitters and manufactures.

I will be back at sci next year as it is in Vegas. I will attend dsc for 4 days.

Mike

Great show as usual!

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Great show as usual!

The buffet at Mandalay Bay was great.

Beretta,

IMHO. re auctions, all the glistens ISN'T GOLD!! Often these hunts are left overs, mediocre hunt areas and with the newbie guides, training missions. Don't be surprised if you don't end up getting what you pay for......

Cheers,

At the buffet: Loved the crab and prime rib and fresh coconut macaroons!

I tried the Salmon,roast beef,italian chicken, fried chicken, various salads,tons of sauted vegetables, roast potatoes, mash potatoes,had a breakfast there too.All was great.Good value for the money and a convenient location.I will eat there again next time.The place wasn't packed either.The draught beer at the Luxor bar was flat.

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
Beretta,

IMHO. re auctions, all the glistens ISN'T GOLD!! Often these hunts are left overs, mediocre hunt areas and with the newbie guides, training missions. Don't be surprised if you don't end up getting what you pay for......

Cheers,

I dont ever bid on anyone I dont know. I just like the break from walking the show and the free beer at sci.

I also like all the quirks in the hunt offered like spanish guys offering $20K hunts that sell got $5k but the hunt requires the purchaser to pay VAT tax on donated value. Hopefully the buyer at %5k has priced in all that stuff.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
Beretta,

IMHO. re auctions, all the glistens ISN'T GOLD!! Often these hunts are left overs, mediocre hunt areas and with the newbie guides, training missions. Don't be surprised if you don't end up getting what you pay for......

Cheers,

I think Mike did just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
Beretta,

IMHO. re auctions, all the glistens ISN'T GOLD!! Often these hunts are left overs, mediocre hunt areas and with the newbie guides, training missions. Don't be surprised if you don't end up getting what you pay for......

Cheers,

I think Mike did just fine.

Larry maybe cause I was buying vacations (photo safaris in hunting areas) instead of hunts.

Often its cheaper just to buy a plains game hunt and skip the hunting part.

Mike

I did not attend DSC but was very happy with SCI this year. It was my 15th year in a row at the show. I spend opening day thru close on Sat on the floor except for the 4hrs I spend attending the BOD meeting.

To get a good idea of bookings you really have to ask on Saturday afternoon - historically most people wait until Saturday to actually put down deposits. In conversations with some of the firearms reps, both Mad Dog Guns and Europtics were knocking it out of the park this year in gun sales in comparison to the past few years. I bought a swaro scope from Europtics on Saturday and Ron (swaro rep) was wiped out of everything so they have to ship it to me..

I ordered a Rem 700 from the custom shop as well on Sat and was the first order of that day but the dealer rep told me Friday had been good to him. I liked ordering it there because I got to sit down with the guy in charge of the custom shop and really talk thru what I wanted..

In the past couple years I have noticed an increase in younger attendees, meaning the 30-40 something hunters, guys and gals wearing the "extreme bowhunting" type t-shirts... the Colorado Buck / Arrow Affliction crowd.. I certainly have no problem with that but if you watch, you will see their interests seem drive them towards the North American and RSA outfitters along with the Best of the West guns and Sitka Gear type booths..

Just a different dynamic than the "old days" when it was everyone sitting with Jeff Rann or Chifuti or the other high end African outfits with their trophy wife or rental.. LOL!!!

I spent most of my time talking to Turkish and other European outfitters along with a few Argentinian outfitters as that is where my interests are migrating. They were never super busy but everyone that I met in their booths were like myself - beyond tire kicking and seriously looking to plan a trip or two..

If I want to hunt in Africa I already have PHs I like to hunt with so other than saying hello I don't need to take up their time at the show.. They know I will call when I am ready..

My wife really enjoys (spelled $$$$) the show - jewelry, purses, wine and looks forward to going as much as I do.. There are hunts and guns there that I cannot afford but there are many that I can afford and like to learn more about..

I will say, I have never bought a hunt at the auction nor do I often put down deposits at the show... I may send in a deposit two weeks later but normally not during the show (I hold back for a sanity check)...

I've been going to SCI since 1994. Not every year, but three out of every five.

I've been going to DSC since 2008, with this year being the first time I missed in ten occasions.

They both have their pros and they both have their cons. I like them both, but those who have a favorite are not going to be swayed by what is said here. That's fine.

What I noticed this year was that the SCI show was seemingly under attended. I've been when it was shoulder to shoulder in the aisles. This year, that was not the case. I don't know if SCI is losing attendees to DSC or if the SCI crowd is getting much older and staying home, but the attendance issue was obvious to me, especially having missed the last two.

Also obvious is the age gap. I'm 42 and would count myself as a young attendee. Certainly one of not that many that are under 50, booking hunts, and spending money.

Finally, the cost continues to skyrocket. Some of the best hunts are up 10% in one year, and 20% over two or three years. Someone mentioned a $60k buff hunt in a prime block in TZ. I even heard a TZ operator say, "We cannot go up on prices any more." The fact is that we are to the point where rich people cannot afford some of these hunts.

Even if the attendance was off, the outfitters were telling me that "the right people" showed up and spent money. I didn't talk to one that was unhappy with the show.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
I've been going to SCI since 1994. Not every year, but three out of every five.

I've been going to DSC since 2008, with this year being the first time I missed in ten occasions.

They both have their pros and they both have their cons. I like them both, but those who have a favorite are not going to be swayed by what is said here. That's fine.

What I noticed this year was that the SCI show was seemingly under attended. I've been when it was shoulder to shoulder in the aisles. This year, that was not the case. I don't know if SCI is losing attendees to DSC or if the SCI crowd is getting much older and staying home, but the attendance issue was obvious to me, especially having missed the last two.

Also obvious is the age gap. I'm 42 and would count myself as a young attendee. Certainly one of not that many that are under 50, booking hunts, and spending money.

Finally, the cost continues to skyrocket. Some of the best hunts are up 10% in one year, and 20% over two or three years. Someone mentioned a $60k buff hunt in a prime block in TZ. I even heard a TZ operator say, "We cannot go up on prices any more." The fact is that we are to the point where rich people cannot afford some of these hunts.

Even if the attendance was off, the outfitters were telling me that "the right people" showed up and spent money. I didn't talk to one that was unhappy with the show.

Agree with everything will.

I sat thru the auctions for sometime - there were no Tanzania hunts. But there did not seem to be a great demand for South African plains game.

I have reached the consulision that all the guys raises their prices 10 percent every year. To a select group prices are kind of irrelevant but the hunting industry is not built on them. There are too many operators and too much hunting for it to be a price inelastic business.

Mike

A $60K buff hunt? At some point, it just becomes ridiculous.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
A $60K buff hunt? At some point, it just becomes ridiculous.

When you can hunt a damn good buff in the save for $8.5k.

But I think this is aimed at a very narrow crowd. And the hunting business is not built on this narrow crowd.

An exclusive item built of perceived scarcity - kind of like getting a table at rao's in NYC.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
Beretta,

IMHO. re auctions, all the glistens ISN'T GOLD!! Often these hunts are left overs, mediocre hunt areas and with the newbie guides, training missions. Don't be surprised if you don't end up getting what you pay for......

Cheers,

My very first African hunt was bought at auction at SCI 20 years ago. Plains game in northern RSA along the Limpopo. Included were kudu, eland, impala, and warthog, plus shoulder mount taxidermy for all, PLUS packing, shipping, etc to CA. All for the princely sum of $3000. Ranch was 15,000 acres. Other auction hunts included a 2 buff hunt in the Selous with everything( including trophy fees, charter flight, etc) for $8000. Then there was the 12 day leopard hunt in Botswana in 2005 for $11,000 all in. Finished the hunt in 4days after adding some plains game( got the leopard the first day), so we moved to the outfitter's area bordering the Moremi game reserve in the Okavango for 6 days of photo/ video. There were a number of other plains game auction hunts that went great, all at great savings. Before I quit SCI over their handling of the OoA disaster 5-6 years ago, I had 7-8 wonderful hunts that were anything but marginal. I always made it a point to never buy a hunt from someone who didn't have a booth and to talk to them directly PRIOR to the auction. Research generally pays off. Your mileage may vary......

JDollar and Beretta....... AH, YES, the Good Ol Days....our first hunt was in 1979, Namibia, South Africa...which went bust...and on up to Zim right at the end of the war...EXCiting ....Botswana in 1984 with Hunters Africa...and John Sharp in NGAMO and Malangani, pre Bubeye....the Good Ol Days...no question!!
I think these guys are following the Spot Gold or DJIA for pricing....I don't know where it ends but it is few and far between where I feel comfortable booking today.
The sad part is that PH/Outfitters have gotten terribly lazy...and now we have at least 5 INTERLOPERS between PH and US Taxidermist with fees EQUAL to Safari Daily rates....all for NOT...this is killing Safari hunting...
I love Africa and I will go back with old friends/Ph's I respect...I take pix and have trophies measured....don't bring them back...my trophy room is full and I rather go back again for the extra cost of bringing em back...and I DON'T Buy the Bloody airplanes for charters....I say-"I just want to use your airplane for a few hours....NOT BUY IT!!"...Yes, things are crazy but as long as deep pockets keep buying...the prices go up...just like Mercedes Benz...

Cheers,

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
JDollar and Beretta....... AH, YES, the Good Ol Days....our first hunt was in 1979, Namibia, South Africa...which went bust...and on up to Zim right at the end of the war...EXCiting ....Botswana in 1984 with Hunters Africa...and John Sharp in NGAMO and Malangani, pre Bubeye....the Good Ol Days...no question!!
I think these guys are following the Spot Gold or DJIA for pricing....I don't know where it ends but it is few and far between where I feel comfortable booking today.
The sad part is that PH/Outfitters have gotten terribly lazy...and now we have at least 5 INTERLOPERS between PH and US Taxidermist with fees EQUAL to Safari Daily rates....all for NOT...this is killing Safari hunting...
I love Africa and I will go back with old friends/Ph's I respect...I take pix and have trophies measured....don't bring them back...my trophy room is full and I rather go back again for the extra cost of bringing em back...and I DON'T Buy the Bloody airplanes for charters....I say-"I just want to use your airplane for a few hours....NOT BUY IT!!"...Yes, things are crazy but as long as deep pockets keep buying...the prices go up...just like Mercedes Benz...

Cheers,

Too some degree me being different than most African hunters in that I have zero interest in trophy hunting (size taxidermy dip and pack) and very little interest in big 4/dg hunting (I would shoot a buff but nothing else) I can find some value in auctions.

Plains game hunts in great areas like the save or bubye or tholo where I can hunt the package animal and then just chill out. I also normally get a observer included in the auction package so I can take someone along to see Africa for the first time and that is perfect.

I am seeking vacations in plains game hunt auctions.

Mike

Beretta- That Works NICELY....you have a good GIG!!

Cheers,