Man, I just picked up my cz american 375 and i am not happy.
The stock feels like a 2x4, the trigger sucks, creepy, no rings in the box ! Bummer! Going to need a wheel barrel to haul it around! It is heavy!
Lucio

Thats unfortunate, I have the hogs back version and am very happy with it, maybe get a few pounds shaved off your stock. Also the trigger is adjustable and you should be happy with how it shoots as all of my 5 cz's shoot well.

Sorry to here yoy�re not satisfied, try PM:ing boha as he is in the process of shaving some wood off his new CZs stock, polishing the action etc. He can probably give you some ideas on what to do.

Shortround,
Have to agree with you on this one. I like the CZ actions and even the barreled actions are ok, but IMO a Winchester Model 70 is a quantum leap forward. Both triggers have to be tuned, but the Winnie has a 3 position safety not that a$$ backward contraption on the CZ and the finish on the metal is better. My CZ metal has been pretty roughly finished. The stocks you have already mentioned though I usually have my guns restocked because a 13.5 LOP doesn't work for me! CZ does have a leg up on the true magnum length actions. Yesterday I saw 4 rifles that came out of the Winchester Custom Shop that a friend had built and they were BEAUTIFUL! They were in 7mm, 300, 338 and 375 Ultra Mag (didn't like the caliber selection but they aren't mine) and all done in the new African Custom Model with drop box mags and upgraded wood. Fit and finish were exceptional. They were as nice as any custom rifle I have seen that is a true working model. I'll probably get flamed hard for this but it's my opinion and I stand by it 110%. The CZ are only good if they are the basis for a lot of custom work. I know I have two. Winchesters require less work to get in the field the way you want them.

I have to agree with you on this one. Even though the Winchester does have occasional quality control issues, all of the other manufacturers are only Winchester "wannabee's".
On the CZ there are so many major mechanical issues that must be addressed. Those issues, trigger/safety/stock will cost you big bucks to address. Unless you need a super magnum action for your project, the Winchester is the only way to go for a production gun.

Post deleted by Will

Get a Ruger M-77, Mark II, RSM and be done with it! You get a custom looking and feeling rifle right out of the box for half the price of a Winchester Custom Shop gun.

Heavy? Dude, you'll appreciate the little weight it has when you light one off the bench. Unless, of course, you were expecting an 8# rifle to carry around. There are enough Winchester posts that document the lack of quality control straight from the factory which would give me second thoughts on them. I don't know what you expect out of a factory rifle but there some that are slightly better than others. You just have to look around. You might consider a semi-custom if you're not satisfied with the factory offerings out there.

I have to agree as well. My 458 Lott is on a Winchester action and I am pleased. It's 9.3 pounds and wonderful in fit and function. I like the weight because I pack it far more then I shoot it!

Since I'm a Winchester Model 70 man, it's hard for me to be very objective about this topic, but in all honesty, from what I've seen the CZs are rather crudely-made rifles with misshapen and poorly-finished stocks. Some are also fitted with plastic magazine followers as well, which sours me on them right away.



Rifles are like anything else: You get what you pay for -- no more, no less! I'm amazed at how many guys are evidently convinced that the budget miracle rifle somehow actually exists, and they keep on recycling such guns like newspapers in the vain quest of finding the perfect rifle, but man that sucker's gotta be cheap! The cycle continues for them, but it could indeed end if they'd only cough up more money up front for a better-built gun and get it over with. But they just can't quite get out of the mindset of stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime!



Anyhow, I'd take a Model 70, Belgian Browning Safari, or a Ruger Magnum (.416 Rigby) over a CZ any day of the week. I don't care for some of the Winchester quality-control/cost-cutting issues and stunts I've seen in recent years, but there are thousands of older CF Model 70 Classics on the secondary market that are available at reasonable prices, not to mention pre-64s, plus there's the option of simply stripping a Model 70 for the action and getting a first-rate custom rifle built on same.



Either way, intelligently-selected Model 70s are better rifles than CZs -- at least for my money!



AD

AMEN !!!

Allen Day,
I defintely concur with you 100% on getting what you pay for. There is no way to make a rifle that isnt capable of being a decent rifle into one. It doesnt mean that by doing some careful shopping that a quality rifle cant be had on a budget. Example being using a laminate or quality synthetic instead of exhibition grade english for the stock. Non-square bridge action. Bead blast blue over high polished rust blue. No integral quarter rib. You get the idea.

The key to making it work though is to not sacrafice quality. If quality is dropped then the whole rifle is a waste, no matter how pretty it is. I have seen a lot of home built Mausers where the guy thought he could screw a $75 barrel from Midway onto a trashed surplus action, wipe it with cold blue, and drop it into a piece of wood from one of the mass stock suppliers and think they have a custom rifle that is worth a chunk of change. That just dont cut it.

But with careful shopping and selection of options a quality rifle can be built on a budget. But like I said before, if quality is dropped then it is all a waste.

I agree, completely and I own and use every rifle Allen mentions here except I sold my RSM. It is quite easy to have a flawlessly functioning, custom tuned rifle made from an old 70, Browning Safari and so forth; it does not have to cost very much.

I love old Brnos and I have owned and used several newer ones, I still have the old ones....

To me, trying to get a budget rifle for serious hunting or bush protection is foolish economy; just forgo booze, dinners out and cable T.V. and you can get the bucks together for a good, not fancy rifle.

I gotta throw this in for what it is worth. Let me start by saying that I have never been to Africa, but do a lot of hunting stateside and am leaving for Africa on May 26. Three years ago I bought a Winchester Stainless 375 and sold it because IMHO it was a poorly made rifle. This year in anticipation of my first safari, I bought a CZ 550 Safari Magnum in 375. I love it. I spent about 90 bucks on a trigger job and to have it bedded and it shoots great. I am confident with it, and it functions perfectly. Winchester, Ruger, and others make some good guns and some bad ones. I guess it is the luck of the draw sometimes.

Remington custom safari????

Dude, the remmy is a push feed and not a control round feed. If you are going into something that's in harm's way, using a CRF is the only way to go.

I don't know for sure but it seems to me that a lot of people that never owned a Winchester are primarily the ones that like to bad mouth Winchester. I currently own a small boat load of rifles. Most of them Winchesters. The ones that are not Winchesters are Mauser 98's. Of all the rifles I own that are Winchester brand, only two classic actioned rifles have gone back to the factory for quality issues. One due to poor drill and tap, the other due to a poorly finished chamber. In both cases Winchester replaced the rifles with new ones. I did loose time and some shipping money, however, That is all. On the one with poor dill and tap, I could have easily redrilled and taped for 8x40 screws but didn't think of it until it had been sent of. Could have saved money and time. I have owned and shot CZ, Remington, Weatherby, and never kept them. I like the Winchester style.I would like to add to my collection of Kimber rifles (Oregon) as the ones I have are sweet.

Every rifle maker now has quality issues. They have to make a product as quickly and as cheaply as they can to stay competitive.

A suggestion, find a local ditributor/vendor and make a deal with them. Order up what ever kind of Winchester rifle/caliber you need with the proviso that you want to test it for feeding with factory rounds. Pull the bolt, unscrew the firing pin (don't try this with Browning, Remington, Weatherby,or Savage. The Ruger/Sako/CZ possibly with a little extra effort) and feed factory rounds throught the rifle. If it works WE HAVE A DEAL if it don't, you are not obligated to buy. That should protect and convince you as to the suitability of the weapon for hunting. My dealer will oblige me on this or I don't buy.

Winchester made some sweet working mans rifles. Unfortunatly they were mostly made before 1964. You can pick up a pre 64 375 for about 1500 bucks.

Yes he can and I have two. One with the Winchester stock and one that has a custom stock. Both pre-64 model 70's in 375 H&H.

Don't feel too bad. Out of the box, the current crop of Winchesters are nothing to brag about. Like your CZ, they are a nice starting point for something that works and is much more expensive in the end.

It's probably not comforting to hear at this point, but I've heard good things about Rugers out of the box. Of course, they cost about 3 times as much as your CZ.

Probably the only company that currently makes its employees do quality work, executes draconian quality control, and pays wages that allow an out of the box rifle to function flawlessly for under $1000 is Browning. But there you're into arguments about push feed, 3 bolt lugs versus 2 (primary extraction issues), and whether it's less patriotic to buy something made in Japan than the Czech Republic.

H. C.

Patriotism?

Browning, Winchester, and whoever are French owned, same company. CZ is no worse, maybe better!

I have been hearing of this French ownership of Winchester for about 5-6 years or maybe more. However I have never seen anyone actually lay it out.

Olin is a large metals and chemicals corp all US owned and on the US stock exchange under OLN. They are Headquartered in Ill somewhere near chicago I believe. That is where the Winchester and Olin "bigdogs" live. They have manufacturing in Conneticut among other places on the east coast for the firearms and ammuntition. They have the Headquarters for the Chemical and metals business someplace in Tennessee.

About a year ago this topic came up and somebody posted the link to the companies history and all the various ownerships and changes that took place with Olin (Winchesters parent company). There is not a single word or statement regarding foreign ownership of Olin. Olin is refered to as an "Ultimate parent" by the rules of corporate of ownership. I'm not savvy to these terms but as I recall from the posts written about this that somehow refers to a company ownership. During that rather long debate there was a few dozen angry posts regarding the Winchester selling out to the French. Yet nobody could find or post a single document showing this as fact?

This French ownership of Winchester might be some kind of non-sense, or internet crap. I could not find anything to back it up and as I recall from the other thread nobody else could either. I think it may have been Browning, not Winchester that was French owned?

If you go to the Olin company profile it explains fairly well what they do and who they own. I did not see anything foreign owned? These intertwined corporate ownerships are probably more confusing then I can grasp anyhow!
I would be interested to hear from anyone on this layout of Olins "parent company" if somebody has the details.

I believe that the the right to use the Winchester name on guns was purchased by the Herstal Group, which I believe is Belgian. Their subsidiary U.S. Repeating Arms Company, Inc. makes the guns today.

http://www.herstalgroup.com/english/

http://www.hoovers.com/u.s.-repeating-arms/--ID__104530--/free-co-factsheet.xhtml

All of this is very interesting and useful discussion as I am trying to decide between the CZ and a Model 70. I know I'm going to get a 375H&H and may also get a 300WSM. That's just a couple of the new tools I need for my first Africa hunt.
Gary T.

As you probably already know, Browning and Winchester share corporate headquarters in Utah. This consolidation was done several years ago while under the ownership of GIAT Industries. Giat is a major manufacturer of military hardware such as the AMX and LeClerc series tanks as well as the Mirage fighters. They also owned several other commercial firearms makers. Giat went through a change where the wanted out of the commercial firearms market so they could concentrate on the military industries. When they did this all of their commercial gun makers were put on the market. After a couple years of negotiations with several potential buyers Browning and Winchester (properly known as USRAC, Winchester is retained by Olin and allow USRAC to put it on their firearms) were purchased b y the very gun manufacturing government of Belgium.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

Maybe that is why this is always debated. The french did own it for a short time but now it's a belgum owned company?



Herstal is listed as the parent company of Winchester and Browning but it's in Belgum, not france. I wonder how Herstal is linked with Olin? Does Olin own Herstal too, or visa versa?



Herstal is listed as the parent company of Winchester and Browning on the Herstal site but Winchester is also listed as a company owned by Olin on thier site????



Should it be a surprise that this is so often debated with contridicting info like this?



Here is a quote from their site:



Following the spin off of Arch Chemicals, Olin became a $1.5 billion company that is a leading North American producer of copper alloys and other metals, ammunition, and chlorine and caustic soda. One of the world's best basic materials businesses, the company today is comprised of three divisions -- Olin Brass, Winchester (both of which are headquartered in East Alton, Ill.) and the Chlor Alkali Products Division, which is headquartered in Cleveland, Tenn.

Olin owns the Winchester name and manufacturers the Winchester brand ammo. Thay are not connected to USRAC (who make the Winchester firearms) in any way other than name. USRAC uses the Winchester name under license from Olin. That is the extent of their connection.

I think the reason so many people find it confusing is that they think the ammo and firearms are the same company and they are not.

The Belgium government own Herstal which then owns FN, Browning, USRAC, FNMI, and several others. The Belgians have done a lot of good things for the firearms industry. It is obviously in their best interests to promote firearms.

You have it about right.



Olin sold the Winchester gun operation sometime back in the early 1980s to U.S. Repeating Arms Company, which is based in Connecticut. They still manufacture Winchester guns though a licensing agreement with Olin. More recently, a merger occurred that included Browning and Winchester. I'm not positive, but I believe Herstal also controls Fabrique Nationale (FN) firearms. -TONY

I had just found this when I was returning to see your post(M1) this makes more sense now. It's cleary not French owned but Belgum owned, at least in name. There also seems to be Licensing of the name Winchester to manufacturers. It's why I wrote earlier that I was not too savvy on this corporate web of names and countries. Here is a bit of text from the Winchester/Olin site:

In December, 1980, the Company's Board of Directors authorized the restructuring of the Winchester Group. This restructuring allowed Olin to better focus more of the company's resources on Winchester's sporting and defense ammunition business.

With this restructuring, Winchester's U.S. sporting arms business, which had been part of the company for nearly half a century, was set up as a freestanding operation. In July, 1981, it was sold to the U.S. Repeating Arms Company in New Haven, Connecticut, which now produces Winchester brand rifles and shotguns under license from Olin Corporation.

M1 Tanker, you nailed it. They have the same name but are not the same company (anymore) Now USRAC seems to be owned by Herstal in Belgum, along with FN and Browning, or so it stands right now! I agree that that belgum has been good for firearms over the years. I still remember hearing my dad say that he wished for a Belgum Browning shotgun when I was a kid.

I probably should have added that FNMI stands for Fabrique Nationale Military industries. They are mostly based here in the states and produce the M16A2, M4 carbine, M249 SAW, M240 machine gun, and a few others. Plus variants of other military weapons for other countries.

Gary,

I can tell you from experience...The 375 in Africa will work for all animals...I took my 375 and a 308 as my second and only used the 308 on my warthog..A very good scope and practice will do...I did 100 rounds thru the 375 had it bedded and trigger worked to a smooth 2.9lbs. and a smooth crfisp fire sequence..I also shot the 300gr spitzers...They crushed all...

Mike

Yeah, but France owns Belgium

Yeah and I think Iraq used to own France. Or at least they sure had them on thier side!

The people of France called Jaques Chirac...Jaques Iraq during the debates over the war! I wonder how much money they sucked out of Iraq for the illegal weapons and technology they sold them?

I remember the suggested list of companies to boycott that were French owned during that time. I could not believe how many companies have French ownership. Even Nissan, and Jerry Springers show are french owned companies! The amount of drug and technology companies from france were amazing to me.

I have both CZ and Winchester. Love them both. Both have a fair number of $100 bills put into them for additions, deletions and modifications. Both make a good platform to build on but that is as far as I can go. You can't get custom rifle function and fit out of a off the self rifle unless you are dang lucky or just have low expectations. MHO AND WORTH WHAT YOU PAID FOR IT! "D"

You will spend far less tuning a Winchester that you will tuning the CZ and replacing parts. Do the Math!!!! Look at the final product. Finally, Look at what it will be worth should you want to sell it. All definite plusses for the Winchester. The CZ of today won't be the "classic" of tomorrow. A finely tuned and tried Winchester has a wider selling market than the CZ in the DGR market.

I agree with that. Off-the-shelf rifles are seldom fit for dangerous game purposes as they come from the factory. With the Model 70 Classic--and this is for starters--the extractor needs to be replaced with an aftermarket extractor that's built of real spring steel; the feeding system needs to be adjusted, as does the trigger, plus rebedding can pay big dividends.

At least with the Model 70 and rifles of it's ilk, the basic foundation is there for a very good, reliable, and fully-functional DGR, given the right sort of work by a skilled gunsmith of experience and judgement.

Some factory rifles (Browning A-Hole, for example), might be chambered for DG cartridges, but no matter what you do to them, they'll never become true DG RIFLES.........

AD

Maybe the next thread should be for those that hate Mod. 70's

Just bought a CZ in 9.3x62. It feeds, ejects, and shoots where I point the new open sights. So does my Mod. 70 .416. If anything the CZ 2-position safety is better than that Mod. 70 nightmare.

So what is the problem?