1. How many times, on average per hunting season, do you have to use your backup rifle to:
(a) protect your client during DG hunts? and
(b) to anchor wounded game with the client's consent?

2. Any specific reasons that you think cause this need for you to protect your client or to anchor wounded game with your backup rifle?

(Questions changed based on 500grains' post - Thanks for your input.)

As you know, I am not a PH, but I onced asked question #1 of a PH and he said he fires from zero to twenty rounds per season at game wounded by his clients. However, usually it is just to anchor wounded game, with the client's consent. There have only been very rare occasions when he actually had to fire a shot to protect a client (once every 3 or 4 years?).

500 grns, was that Mark Sullivan you asked?

Spring Trap,

You are not very likely to get really true answers to this question. The really good PH's make sure that their clients take only shots that will result in the sudden demise of the trophy. They will get their client close enough, and then a bit closer still. They will see when a client gets over-excited [buck or buffalo fever], and talk quietly to the client untill he/she is reassured and calm enough to make a killing shot. Hence the really good PH's very seldom have a client wound anything! Just remember Mr. Murphey!

It is largely the 'cowboy' tyes of PH that would allow a client to take a x% chance of success shot. It is also this guy who would then need to protect his client form an angry and pissed off dangerous animal. A good example of this type of PH is the fellow also offer his client's trophy the choice of where to die......

Some good PH's may want to impress the world with the danger of their work and lie about how often they have to back up a client. You know, which tatement sounds better? (i) "I've never had a client hurt, and I've had to back up and save a client x number of times." or (ii) "I've never had a client hurt, as I've always made sure that my clients only take shots within their capabilities."

For the one I can say: Wow! You had saved x people from hurt or death in a wounded charge situation? You must be a very good PH! I'd love to hunt with you there to protect me.

What you want is the PH who is likely to make statement (ii) above AND will 100% for sure save your ass if S%#t happens. As it will sometime or other, no matter how good the PH or cient. Remember Mr. Murphey is out there waiting for an opportnity to demonstrate his law!

Some cowboys know [or may read this] that they would be classified as cowboys if they admit how often they have to back up a client,and hence reduce the truth of how often they had to back up a bit.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

In the last 7 years the only animals that I have had to shoot were 1 elephant and three buff, all charging and all wounded by arrows.

Since I recon at least 3/4 of the game wounded actually recovers, I will not back up a client on a wounded departing animal unless a) he has asked me to, b)it will pose a danger to other hunters or neigboring tribesmen.

The only time I have seen Ganyana ready his rifle was an encounter with some poachers near the Gwaii River. He is very calm and cool at all times and that was the first time I had ever seen him "switch" on or change his readiness condition. It made me go from "hey, I'm on vacation" to "are we getting in the shit" in about a nanosecond.

My brother and I shot elephants with him a couple of years ago and he never attempted to touch his rifle even during what appeared to be the beginning stages of a charge. I hope his actions were not because we were such pain in the ass clients he was hoping one or both of us would be squashed.

Perry

Ganyana, you're the type of PH I would prefer to hunt with

What about the rest as per Andrew McLaren's post above -
do we have only a few 'really good PH's' and all the rest 'cowboy PH's' ?

I'll assume that the first question means how often does the PH shoot in a charge situation... I tend to be cautious on follow ups of wounded game and probably don't have as many charges as some...... maybe 2 or 3 a year on average. - Sometimes less, rarely more.

I tend to avoid charges from unwounded game by watching their behaviour and body language etc and trying not to put them in a situation where they might feel threatened enough to charge in the first place..... most unwounded animals, (at least, in the areas I hunt) will send out warnings that they're concerned by your proximity and it's very often a case of interpreting those warnings correctly.

As to second question, that implies that the PH will deliberately wound an animal - I don't know of a single PH that would do that. (well, maybe one ) and I don't know of a single African country where it's legal to do so. - If you meant, how often does a PH shoot on or just after report to ensure a clean kill, then I do that when the client asks me to. Usually it's in an unusual circumstance such as a Lion in camp where there are a lot of staff around (no-one in their right mind wants a wounded Lion bouncing around in those situations) or ultra close DG hunting such as in tall, thick grass etc - where the shot is measured in just a few yards). Last year, I did it two or three times and once or twice this year. That said, some clients ask you to back them up on some species...... esp if it's their first time on that particular species of DG.

I hope Andrew won't be offended when I point out that it doesn't matter how good a shot and how confident a particular hunter may be - anyone who says they never get a shot wrong is either a liar or hasn't hunted much...... to say nothing of the occasional hunter who, quite frankly, just can't shoot for shit. .

As with most things African, never say never and never say always........

Very interesting, the few really good PH's came up with good, logical replies so far. Good for you!

But what about the rest?

Perry

Beings Scotts I was merely doing a cost benefit analysis.

Is the elephant going to stand on my client- possibly
Has he paid me for the safari - no
Can I forge his signature on the travellers cheques - yes (and he bought mostly cash anyway)
Ok, relax, no need to get involved yet.

Seriously though, Most PH’s will comply with their clients wishes. And with the cost and difficulty of obtaining good ammo north of the Limpopo no PH is going to waste ammo shooting his clients game for free (the operator sure isn’t going to pay for the rounds used and that comes out of your tip, so the client had better like what you are doing!).

Some of my friends have a policy of strongly recommending that the client lets them back up on any shot they are not 100% sure of. Reason being that they believe that they will have a happier client at the end of the hunt if they don’t spend three days on an adrenaline high looking for that wounded buff in the Jess and can get on with hunting other things as well. I understand their sentiments and also understand the operators frustration when a client wounds a dangerous animal and you spend days looking for it rather than shooting some of the plains game on quota or looking for another big animal that was on the original list - eg, I have followed a wounded buff for five days which meant that the client didn’t get his elephant.

Each to his own, but discuss before hand! On the elephant I shot two years ago, the client had asked me only to shoot if the elephant was a) charging and b) within ten paces. Obviously for the hunt to count as a bow kill, no rifle intervention acceptable. I shot his 71lber at 6 paces. There just wasn’t an option.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Perry

Beings Scotts I was merely doing a cost benefit analysis.

Is the elephant going to stand on my client- possibly
Has he paid me for the safari - no
Can I forge his signature on the travellers cheques - yes (and he bought mostly cash anyway)
Ok, relax, no need to get involved yet.

That is why you are the best.


Brian

That's right, Ganyana, you are the very best PH ever. Surely the best that has ever walked the earth. You are my hero, the greatest man I have never met, and presumably the best looking PH. The only goal yet to be met in my life and all I could ever hope for is to walk in your path though several hundred yards behind you. Or is that meters?



P.S. I love you. Really.

As to Q1- last year I had to fire 3 shots to protect life and limb, this year none. Begore that average less than 1 a year.
Q2- over the last 5 years, less than 5 times with trophy hunters. With biltong hunters though, at least 20+ shots a year on average...

Will
You need to go kill something, your getting light headed again. It is a terrible addiction
you have.
JD

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
That's right, Ganyana, you are the very best PH ever. Surely the best that has ever walked the earth. You are my hero, the greatest man I have never met, and presumably the best looking PH. The only goal yet to be met in my life and all I could ever hope for is to walk in your path though several hundred yards behind you. Or is that meters?



P.S. I love you. Really.

Dearest Ganyana,

We need to talk.

I am such a slut. I may love Buzz more. When he wears those silky, tight, little pantaloons it may make me think in an unfaithful manner.

Woof, woof!

Hey Will

You're getting more like John Taylor every day!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Hey Will

You're getting more like John Taylor every day!

That right there is funny, I don't care who you are. Way to go Steve.


Brian

Will,

Wow, what a deviation from the original topic!

quote:

It is largely the 'cowboy' types of PH that would allow a client to take a x% chance of success shot. It is also this guy who would then need to protect his client form an angry and pissed off dangerous animal.

Would it be correct to assume that the above also applies to the PH shooting far more than only often when really necessary at biltong hunters' game?

quote:

Would it be correct to assume that the above also applies to the PH shooting far more than only often when really necessary at biltong hunters' game?

Allow me to answer that, since it involves me. A lot of biltong hunters are not even present when the animals are killed. They (generally) just shrug teir shoulders when I ask who is coming with after soemthing wounded. You see, normally involves extra work, and walking, both which might interfere with their drinking time. This is as I have stated a generalization, as I also have very ethical and dedicated hunters as biltong hunters. But, as an example, I had a corporate group (from a leading bank), that had 2 bad apples (one introduced himself as "Hi, I'm Hxxx, I'm also a PH...) just shot at anything moving on a springbok "voorsit" shoot. I found and killed 3 of the total 6 springbok wounded that day. The 2 culprits never even said anything about wounding, their friends told me that they heard a lot of shots from their direction, and saw the 6 wounded springbok pass them. There could have been more, they only noticed 6. Now if you want to brand me as a cowboy for ending these type of suffering, please feel free. My regular clients (biltong and trophy) will however disagree.

quote:

A lot of biltong hunters corporate, irresponsible killers of animals, are not even present when the animals are killed. They (generally) just shrug teir shoulders when I ask who is coming with after soemthing wounded. You see, normally involves extra work, and walking, both which might interfere with their drinking time. This is as I have stated a generalization, as I also have very ethical and dedicated hunters as biltong hunters.

Allow me to say, a very, very broad generalization and not worth a single cent as a contribution towards this discussion!

At least now that you've cleared the real, paying for himself, biltong hunters' reputation, we can move on.

As far as this next bit goes:

quote:

But, as an example, I had a corporate group (from a leading bank), that had 2 bad apples (one introduced himself as "Hi, I'm Hxxx, I'm also a PH...) just shot at anything moving on a springbok "voorsit" shoot.

Here the really good PH will give preference to and maintain his high ethical standards, rather than looking at his own pocket.
Why not taking those corporate, non-paying for themselves and out-spoken culprits to the shooting range together with all the other members of the group and if they don't past the test, simply don't allow them to hunt?

That, in my opinion, is also a PH's duty to prevent such irresponsible actions to happen in the hunting fields at any time.

Or is that to much asked?

quote:

Here the really good PH will give preference to and maintain his high ethical standards, rather than looking at his own pocket.
Why not taking those corporate, non-paying for themselves and out-spoken culprits to the shooting range together with all the other members of the group and if they don't past the test, simply don't allow them to hunt?

That, in my opinion, is also a PH's duty to prevent such irresponsible actions to happen in the hunting fields at any time.

Or is that to much asked?

Hi Springtrap, I did all that. In fact, these "culprits" shot the best on the range, but had NO ethics WHATSOEVER. I refused them (these 2) a second and a 3rd days hunting, and also told the bank when they booked for 2007, that they would not be welcome with anyone like this in their group. As I said, a generalization, and definately not all biltong hunters. But, remember, a lot of biltong hunters enjoy the outing with friends as much as the shooting, and some even prefer to just stay in camp, and have a friend shoot something for them. (More socail guys, and not really hunters.) If you spend enough time with biltong hunters of all walks of life, you WILL pick up the bad ones as well as the good ones. That specific example was a very likable guy in camp, and on the shooting range, but he turned into a total ass once alone in the veld. Therein lies the problem with biltong hunters: they do not have to have a PH present when they hunt, so you should pretty much trust him to have good judgement. Just as an aside, why the personal attack on me when you obviously have limited knowledge of me? As I have stated before, you are welcome to ask any of my clients (biltong or trophy) if they ever had even a incling of a feeling that I act as a "cowboy". In fact, all will tell you (even the bad apples), that I conduct my hunts in a very calm , professional way, and I do everything in my power to get the client to shoot his own wounded game. But as I stated, on biltong hunts, I may be alone when I spot an animal with its jaw shot off, so now you suggest I leave that animal to go and first look for the hunter that wounded it, so that he can finish it off? All this at the risk of having a wounded animal escape? I think not. BTW, its also not meant as a attack on you, I'm just stating some of my resons for a higher shot average with biltong hunters.

There's no getting away from the fact that some biltong hunters have a very different attitude to sport hunters. It's not unusual for them to turn up with a rifle that hasn't been shot or zeroed since it was put in the safe the previous year and it's not unusual for them to arrive with umpteen types of ammo that all shoot to different POIs. - It's also unusual for them to have a PH along.

I used to hunt an area in KZN that catered to a lot of local/biltong hunters and I'd invariably end up spending the first day or two killing impala etc that had been badly shot and then left. Mostly with damage to jaws, cheeks and ears etc....... eventually, I gave up hunting there for that reason.

Admittedly, some local/biltong hunters are very good shots - but just because their grandfathers used to be able to shoot the monocle out of an officer's eye at 500 yards with the same rifle, doesn't mean they can head shoot an impala at 100 yards.........

surely the answer is for the landowner to take them to the range when they arrive and check they can shoot. We do it with overseas hunters so why shouldn't the locals have to pass the same test......

Sorry for the

quote:

surely the answer is for the landowner to take them to the range when they arrive and check they can shoot. We do it with overseas hunters so why shouldn't the locals have to pass the same test......

I put the blame squarely on the farm owner if he does not check the rifles out before allowing the hunter in the field. Even if a rifle was zeroed properly a day ago, a scope can just bump whilst in transit and it is out again.

I have never been to any farm in the last 20 or so years where the farmer did not insist that a 3-shots group be fired.

Chris

Steve & others,

IMHO the 'normal' procedure is that the land owner takes biltong hunters to the range on arrival. Very few land owners in South Africa do not insist on some demonstration of basic shooting ability & proper scope zero before allowing a hunter on his property.

At those shooting ranges you find that few can't shoot much. Some can shoot quite well. A few are excellent shots. A real "Normal Distribution" of shooting ability.

Just as there is a "normal Distribution" of shooting skills, there is a "Normal Distribution" of hunting skills amongst the typical biltong hunters. I’m not only referring to experience, but real skills as required to be a good hunter. Naturally you will also find a “Normal Distribution†of hunting experience amongst biltong hunters. Some will be on a first hunt, others may be old hands at it!

Unfortunately there is absolutely no correlation whatsoever between shooting ability and hunting ability. Experience helps a bit, but if you normalize the statistics to exclude experience as a factor, there is IMHO no correlation between hunting skills and shooting skills at all! I stand to be corrected, but that is my take on the matter.

I've seen some people that can hardly shoot a paper plate at 100 meters from a steady rest, but they are very good hunters. They have patience, stalking and veldt skills and the most important thing is that they KNOW about their shooting skill limitation, and don't attempt shots beyond their capabilities. Good hunter, but poor shot.

Then there are the good shots, but poor hunters. No patience, zero ability/inclination to get closer by stalking, totally erroneous distance judging ability and no sense of ethics whatsoever. These are the real wounders of animals! There is just no reliable way to recognize this type of scum beforehand!

An interesting survey would be to compare the number of wounded animals that require a follow-up shot with the number of ‘dead right there’ shots [banflops] between overseas trophy hunters and our local biltong hunters on plains game hunts. My feeling is that the visiting hunters – who always hunt under the supervision/guidance of a PH – make a far higher % of banflop shots than the ‘average’ local biltong hunter.

Te reasons for this better performance by overseas hunters are many and varied. The fact that the good shot local hunter often tries for headshots, hence the number of jaws blown away, while the visiting hunter is coached to aim for ‘the top of the heart’ within the animal. Furthermore it is possible that, by and large, it is only the dedicated hunter [read good] from overseas who will make the effort to come to Africa for a hunt.

The debate ranges on……

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren.

No personal attack in any of these questions so far.
Clarifying answers given by yourself - which I think we have done so reasonably well up to now.

Another question - is it the farmer's responsibilty or rather the PH who hunt on the property to check a hunter's shooting ability?

I know who I think is responsible, but who do you think should take responsibility for this?

quote:

Another question - is it the farmer's responsibilty or rather the PH who hunt on the property to check a hunter's shooting ability?

SpringTrap, on the farms where I do biltong hunting, myself (if present) or the PH working for me WILL take full responsibility for checking the rifles, and sorting out any problems. That is part of the reason we get these areas to market and hunt, the owner has zero ineterst in hunting or working with the clients.

quote:

An interesting survey would be to compare the number of wounded animals that require a follow-up shot with the number of ‘dead right there’ shots [banflops] between overseas trophy hunters and our local biltong hunters on plains game hunts. My feeling is that the visiting hunters – who always hunt under the supervision/guidance of a PH – make a far higher % of banflop shots than the ‘average’ local biltong hunter

Andrew, I have always thought that the visiting hunter, on average, comes better prepared, and as a rule shoot better, so I will agree 100% with your analysis

Karl,

My answer relates purely to the biltong hunter that hunts without the professional service of a guiding PH, who would look after everything for his clients. So in this instance the farm owner or his manager would be left to himself.

A good PH that can organise and assist with rifle problems (when they arise) for overseas hunters is a must in my opinion.

Chris

Can one really expect a PH to be a gunsmith as well?

One can end up with a man of many trades, yet master of none!

How do you as PH's feel about this broad job description for yourselves?

Or should you rather have loan rifles for clients with 'rifle problems'?

Springtrap,

You can never expect a PH to be a gunsmith, just like you cannot expect him to be a medical doctor. However a good PH will have a medical kit, he will have a anti-snake poison kit, etc.

Likewise there are other gun related problems that he can sort out like either attending to itself within his own capability or ORGANISE as he knows where to find a gunsmith, gunshop, etc that can assist. Sometimes clients experience a stuck case in the cahmber (hot loads in a warmer area), a broken scope, a lost magazine, a recoil pad that came off, etc. A loan gun is always a good thing to have spare.

Since the local PH knows his terrain better he can even assist with buying his clients other things they have forgotton (batteries, mosquitto repellant, sweets for the people that are doing the slaugtering or caping, whatever the need might be.

Chris

PHC wrote a wonderful job description for a PH and it's about right...... I can usually sort out most rifle problems and also usually have a spare scoped rifle if really necessary. Only had to use it unexpectedly on one hunt last year, when the stock of the clients new rifle proved to be cracked right through.

Out of the four (4) PH's who had enough courage to take part and air their views in this thread, would any of you hunters - both trophy and biltong hunters - without even a second thought, hunt with:
all 4 of them;
or
only with 3 of them;
or
only with 2 of them;
or
only with 1 of them;
or
rather hunt with another PH?

NOTE: No names please!

All four without even having to think about it.

Frank honesty is worth a great deal. I'm not so insecure that I need to pay someone to tell me how wonderful I am (since I already know that I'm wonderful).



It's easier in the long run to deal with a fellow who's a straight shooter (pardon the pun) than a fellow who tells me what he thinks I want to hear.

I know that some don't see these things as I do, but that's their loss.

Furthermore, if you punish those who tell you unpleasant truths, you surround yourself with those who tell you honeyed lies.

Just a thought.

If I had to, definitely 3 of them only.

Springtrap,

I must say that your question to others about willingness to hunt with these 4 PH's seems a bit assinine. I believe I am detecting some personal agenda coming through, of which I care not a lick, but I suppose I am taking the bait anyhow....

To think anything said on this thread would dissuade me from using these PH's is fanciful, at the least. All have a reputation on this board that goes well beyond their answer to a seeingly immflammable question.
While I have never hunted with any of them, their reputations are well known. I make booking decisions on deeper research and better information than a couple posts on a bulletin board. Those that would not consider someone on the basis of a few comments taken out of contex deserve whomever they end up with.

No wonder the caveat from Andrew that few PH's would be willing to reply.

Let's not take ourselves too seriously....

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by SpringTrap:
Out of the four (4) PH's who had enough courage to take part and air their views in this thread, would any of you hunters - both trophy and biltong hunters - without even a second thought, hunt with...

Have you considered that "courage" may have nothing to do with some PH's deciding not to reply to your thread?

Maybe some of us just didn't bother...

llamapacker & ChrisTroskie, have it your way!
I and hopefully other participants and readers of this thread have definitely learned a few things.

1. The generalization about the bad habits, poor ability to shoot and hunt of biltong hunters, turned out to be a corporate culprit issue.

2. As Andrew McLaren said: "You are not very likely to get really true answers to this question." This aspect was proved more than once in this thread! How does one believe what some PH's have to say after all that?

3. "Unfortunately there is absolutely no correlation whatsoever between shooting ability and hunting ability." Só true! How should the poor PH know this beforehand?

4. "Maybe some of us just didn't bother..."
That's perhaps in most cases the real problem behind all problems!

5. "No personal attack in any of these questions so far." Those of you who see it as such, well ..... what shall one make of that?

Lastly, isn't this what it is all about?

quote:

Seriously though, Most PH’s will comply with their clients wishes. And with the cost and difficulty of obtaining good ammo north of the Limpopo no PH is going to waste ammo shooting his clients game for free (the operator sure isn’t going to pay for the rounds used and that comes out of your tip, so the client had better like what you are doing!).

Quite a bit of courage required to unveil oneself

quote:

1. The generalization about the bad habits, poor ability to shoot and hunt of biltong hunters, turned out to be a corporate culprit issue.

Because you say so? I only said that I am generalising, not that its a corporate culprit issue. Bilong hunters, as a whole, perform bad on average when you test their shooting skills. Go to any of the SA hunting associations, CHASA or SAHGCA, and ask them how many of the people applying for dedicated hunter status pass the relatively simple shooting test the first time. Rememebr, these are the so called deduicated hunters, and less than 50% pass... Then you will see how poorly MOST biltong hunters shoot. For those that do not know the test, 3 shots from 200m from a prone position with a rest, 3 shots from 100m using a sitting position with a rest, and 3 shots from a standing position from 50m, also using a rest. -1 for any wounding shot. All aimed at live-size impala, expanded-lung shot counts 3, greater heart area counts 4 (about 2x heart sixe), and heart shot counts 5. You need 27 out of 45 to pass, yet on average less than 50% pass it the first time. That's not good marksmanship in my opinion. But maybe my standards are too high.