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Andrew, your gracious wife grew up in different surroundings and while still not quite in agreement with the taking of the life of an animal, has come to terms that it is a necessity to keep these animals in existence. The antis however, cannot see beyond their noses and in most part, the majority wouldn't know where Zimbabwe, Tanzania or Timbuktu are located; they just follow the leader, like a flock of sheep and believe anything and everything their leader tells them, much like the followers of David Koresh. | |||
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Because going for an armed walk heightens the senses in a way that no other outdoor activity does for me. | |||
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Mike, Damn good post!  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Excellent points! It's is difficult to explain why I hunt. Raised in the suburbs, I am the only one in my family who hunts. I feel more alive when hunting; particularly when hunting in a dangerous game area. My senses are more attuned to the situation; life is simplified and more focused. I love that feeling and long to experience it again. When I am not hunting I am thinking about hunting or actively planning my next hunt. The best I can say is that I am a hunter; I love to hunt; I need to hunt; I want to hunt. I don't know where that comes from, but it is who I am. I cannot change it and don't want to. The conservation benefits of hunting are an added incentive, but not a primary motivation. I do feel good that my money is supporting conservation and consider that to be an investment in the world my child lives in. I want her to be able to hunt and am willing to support conservation through sustainable use as the only method that has been proven effective. USMC Retired DSC Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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One of the problems that hunting faces is that too many hunters (not necessarily you drongo) have nothing else to make them feel that way and it makes them too one-dimensional and incredibly boring, unable to relate to anyone outside of their little hunting world and incapable of saying anything that resonates with anyone outside of that world. Lots of people get that same, or a similar feeling, from all sorts of other human endeavors, and some of them are just as much assholes about it as some of you are. Hunting is great, great fun, perfectly natural, and probably satisfies some deep genetic or epigenetic impulse like sex or eating or fighting or making things with one's hands - but it's not the be-all-and-end-all of life. People who get too obsessed with something, whether it's one of the above - or politics or music or whatever – lose the ability to communicate in any meaningful way. It’s all about the music, or its all about the election, or it’s all about the hunt. Get over it already. There’s more to life than any of those things. One of the things that I appreciated about some of the African PHs I met – and even some of the Africans I’ve met (indigenous Africans, that is) – is how much more sophisticated and interesting they are than the average American hunter. Hunting, to them, is, in some way, so second-nature to them that they don’t feel the need to make a big deal about – because it is no big deal. Change yourself and the message will change. Go read a Goddamn book or something (and not about hunting). <> <> <> | |||
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I have to agree but with the Conservation being at the ass end of why I hunt. Great friends are made and good times are had afield with friends. Weather you kill animals are not. Ive told a lot of friends and family over and over again.......hunting for me ain't about the killing Good times and great friends......cheers men  ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Trophic hunter You just assumed, American hunters and white African hunters and others are less of a hunters then the so called indigenous Africans. You just shit on Americans, Europeans and white Africans. You are Moron and a pecker head. Indigenous African hunters are no better then everyone else, more likely they just exterminate as far I see. Who the hell are you mother fucker? " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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What's missing is the message to hunters. Most have no idea what conservation means. They all grew up in times of plenty, whitetails all over the place and you just go out and hunt. Hell they think when they hammer some whitetail or elk born and raised on a private farm behind high fence, it is contributing to conservation. Hunters are the ones that have lost the message to a great degree and they cannot convey it if they do not understand it. Makes me ill just thinking about how much the mind set has changed and how little so many understand about the true nature of things. So many do not get past the "kill" mentality because they do not understand the big picture. They never get beyond the urge to shoot squirrels and such when we were young. They never truly understand how the killing of game in wild places and the preservation of habitat all mesh. The majority, as with all things, just care about ME and stoking the EGO. How can you expect millions that are so far removed from the land and do not understand agriculture and animal husbandry to really know what the hell "conservation" means? How can they then go and pass on the knowledge to others? Most of you are going to disagree with me and that is fine.......... but I am old enough now that I do not give a shit what people think about my poor attitude.  ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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No, Trophic hunter says shit I take personally as a hunter As far as I'm concerned he is up to no good in his opinion and you defend him? You gotta be kidding me... Most of us hunt because we like it. Most indigenous people nowadays hunt to make money from exterminating anything that moves and never think about tomorrow. How is that our fault? Oh, everything is whiteys fault right? One thing that gets me going is telling me we hunters are the problem. That really pisses me off to no end Tell me I'm wrong, hell Bite me... " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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So high-fenced operations exist outside the sphere of wildlife conservation? An interesting perspective but incorrect. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Depends where you are from Matt............ but how the hell does a guy shooting an elk on a private high fenced farm in Saskatchewan have anything to do with wild elk in the wild areas? No licence, any time of year, nothing to do with managing the wild elk. No money going to help manage the wild elk and preserve habitat. Over here we in North America the conservation model has nothing to do with high fenced operation in South Africa. Nothing at all. This is part of the problem. I gather you see it different, so tell me how some guy with deep pockets shooting a mega-genetic whitetail on a private high fence deer preserve that contributes nothing to the deer management in the state or province has anything to do with conservation. Aside from the land being used to raise deer. Thousands of farmers on open unfenced land are feeding wild deer where hunters have to buy a licence. Explain to me where you are coming from on this and how high fenced operations in say, North America, contribute to conservation. Don't use Texas, as it is really very similar to what is happening in South Africa in a way. Not completely, but has something to do with species preservation. I am open to your thoughts on this, not one liners. On the other hand I have met hunters from Texas who assume that when they hunt in the wilderness it should be a slam dunk like their two day hunts for exotics.......... what, no kill no pay guarantee? There is a huge difference between someone hiring an outfitter or going on a DIY hunt after drawing an elk tag in Wyoming or Montana and hunting in the National Forest.......... and someone shooting a pen raised elk on a private elk ranch behind high fence. That has no more meaning with regards to conservation than my killing a couple of lambs in October after the fatten up on my pastures. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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See what I mean about just the probabilities of getting all ( insert most, many, or a majority percentage ) hunters to pull together to get things accomplished. | |||
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Quite simply your generalisations didn't portray the diversity of the industry. I see your whitetail analogy is now about rich people. I contend that there are very many Texas whitetail ranches whose operations contribute greatly to the conservation of that species locally and of other wildlife and in preserving wildlife habit- they aren't treeless deer farms. Their hunters buy a licence, just the same as the guy down the road on an unfenced ranch. Yes of course southern African 'ranch' operations participate greatly in the same kinds of conservation - to suggest otherwise is just plain silly. Game ranching allows it to happen on former farm and grazing land - and as a substitute for those activities. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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The post that hits the nail right on the head! Why should we apologize for something we like doing?? How many activities others participate in that we do not find very nice at all?? Do we waste our time telling them not to do them?? Not at all. So if someone does not like what I do, it just proves they have no life of their own, and might do them good to find something useful to do. | |||
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There are few true adventures one can experience today. We live in an antiseptic world where everything that you want done and handed to you on a silver platter, you can pay and attain. Don't want to actually play sports? Play a video game. Afraid to be a real soldier, sailor, etc. and go to war? Play a different video game, see Africa, watch Animal Planet... hungry for a steak, run down to the market and pick one up. Hunting is an adventure. Rarely does it go as scripted. There are highs and lows like no other. One gets to see and experience what so many get from Nat Geo sitting in front of the tube. Hunting measures success and failure and the timber of one's true self. I hunt for the adventure, the experience of being a part of a culture by immersing yourself in it. This isn't standing in line for the Eiffel Tower or the Louve and saying I experienced France. It's driving down dusty two track roads and meeting people so different from us that it leaves me struggling to comprehend how those people live day-to-day. Hunting is so much more than taking an animal... however, it is still about traveling to far away lands or just another county with the intention of hunting and killing our intended quarry. For me, hunting is also a tie to one's past. The earliest father/son activities I remember were accompanying my Dad to hunting camp. I began traveling with him before I could even carry a rifle or shotgun. I got to hang out with the men and participate in man things (good and bad, according to my mother). Later, I learned the responsibility that comes with handling a firearm and felt the excitement and sadness at taking an animal. All of this built, piece by piece, a love for hunting and fishing. Complicated and difficult to understand? Not so much. Difficult to explain? Absolutely! How do we as hunters and fisherman explain this to an increasingly urban world? I am afraid we are failing. Miserably. On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch... Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! - Rudyard Kipling Life grows grim without senseless indulgence. | |||
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The discussion started out well, but as so all too often happens, personalities and personal opinions cause the train to jump the track. I hunt because I like too. Some folks want to see all hunting, worldwide stopped. It has nothing to do about a concern for animals, it is nothing more than one group of humans working to control the activities of another group of humans. I am not sure hunters as a group can ever pull together on any subject relating to hunting and how to keep it viable. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I am certain that hunters as a group will never do that. By my estimation pro-hunters (hunters and there followers/family) outweigh true anti-hunters by a good margin. Pro-hunters need to stand up and be counted, state their own case. If there is great diversity in their message well so be it... there is great diversity in the activites they engage in. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Maybe so in Australia, but I am fairly sure it is not that way in America and Europe. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I agree with Matt. There are a lot more people who hunt and family or friends who enjoy it that one would think. The antis are pretty much a small group of very well organized loudmouths. The real issue is that the biggest group is people who are not really involved in either. They tend to be swayed by the anti's emotional appeals, but can be convinced of the factual error of those beliefs. Unfortunately that requires someone who is knowledgeable and in contact with them individually. Because they will not seek out the truth on their own, and they do vote... There are a large group of leftists who are not at all anti hunting, but they are anti hunting of the "charismatic" big animals. These can be intellectually convinced, but their worldview is so emotional that they don't care about the facts. These are the dangerous ones. This is where a lot of antis are from... the guys who go on about buying beef from a store is OK because it doesn't hurt any animals... It isn't they cannon conceive of a cow as an animal, its just to them it doesn't matter if they can get those rich bastards... I know more than a few bird hunters and farmers who fall in this last group. They will admit they have no reason to believe how they do, but do believe this way and state that "it is a matter of conscience.." They cannot be changed. However, you get a uncommitted person to witness that exchange, and they usually become very pro hunting... because they come to realize how absolutely hypocritical the antis are. | |||
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I agree with the point, especially the well organized part. As for the rest, I simply feel that a lot of hunters are kidding themselves as to how much power the various Anti Hunting groups have been accumulating. Keep in mind, that while the Anti's have been working to spread their propaganda and gain influence with politicians, hunters only seem to be able to find lines of division among their numbers. | |||
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Look no further than these very pages to see the lines of division and hunters willing to throw other hunters 'under the bus' for no chance of any political or public gain or favour. Banding together is never going to happen ... let's stop kidding ourselves ... the best we can do is to try to stop the actual 'under the bus throwing' and get everyone active in campaigning for their own pastimes - be it duck hunting, big game hunting, pest control, trophy hunting, whatever. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Yes as I put before, the focus group could look to do more good on this side of the field before they work on the other sideline. But in truth - at least through the past 50 years - the average hunters like many of us have seen increases in both places and species to hunt. Records and top trophies aside, in a number of those areas game quantities and game quality has improved. We went through some leaner times right here in both deer and ducks and maybe some in turkeys too. Then it rebounded and even improved over what it had been. Some was due to conservation efforts and some of it was due to both improved management and econmics. The world just has a lot more people population than it did even 30 years ago which puts a strain on many things. We will probably be fighting over water before we fight over hunting. I don't think hunting is going away by any means. But as long as their is a big divide in politics and in demographics, and as long as guns continue to be stigmatized, then we are going to be in that as a visible group with a lot of teeth gnashing. In general I suspect that entry costs will continue to be more making it harder to add younger hunters, and that overall costs will be more as it has been over the past years . Not to say that there are not possible reductions ahead due to the actions of others. In many ways that has been going on the entire 50 years. But in a lot of this, the actions of all of us count more toward our own future. | |||
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Look no further than the our biggest hunting organization losing all common sense and direction, and get hi-jacked by a few idiots,, and claim to represent us as hunters! All to further their own convoluted sense of what hunting actually is, and turn it in a competition! | |||
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They sure as hell don't pile shit on other legitimate hunters. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Yes they do! Tell me, what has been SCI most important aim so far?? BIGGER IS BETTER, AT ANY COST. Hunting has NEVER been a bloody competition, they turned it into one. Notice anything about their convention?? All sorts of parties glorifying who have a bloody clue what hunting is, and blackmailing exhibitors into paying "donations"! Where have all these "donations" been going?? They certainly have not been doing any good about putting out a proper massage about us has it?? | |||
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And here was me thinking you had never attended an SCI convention before Saeed - I must have been mislead! I have never met an SCI member who was directly competing against other members. But that's OK - you just keep piling shit on SCI members. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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They just wallow in their own ! | |||
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Really?? What is the purpose of all the silly CIRCLES then? | |||
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SCI has been fairly useless during the Cecil/air freight crises. MJines comments on focus groups might well be a very effective way of getting hunters on message......which they are in dire need of. And Bakes comments about "trophy" hunting is spot on too. If you mention you are a trophy hunter to a non hunter you will get a very sceptical/hostile reaction these days. I never discuss trophy hunting except with friends and I rarely let non hunters visit my holiday home where the majority of my trophies are......it's not worth putting up with their bullshit. | |||
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You tell me since you know so much about it. You can mention trophy hunting where I live, no problem at all. But then every second ute has a dog box and hounds hanging off it, spotlight in roof, or 4WD's with some other hunting paraphenalia attached. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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For the love of a higher power. Can we have one thread on here that can get past one page without it getting hijacked and tured in SCI bashing. Seriously Saeed you've beat the horse to death, we get it. As far as in question posed I hunt because I enjoy the challenge and really enjoy cooking and eating what I kill. I do have a separate message for the non-hunters that I work with or come in contact with. Its one of conservation, jobs etc. I don't hunt for those reasons but its a great by product of hunting. The danger of civilization, of course, is that you will piss away your life on nonsense | |||
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I thought we are talking about the message we are giving to the world. And if we take our biggest organization in hunting, then they have failed miserably in what they are supposed to do. | |||
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SCI isn't even close to the biggest organisation in hunting  A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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"So, should hunters and the organizations that we belong to change the message? Or stick with the PR campaign of conservation." Gayne, with all due respect, doesn't your verbiage "organizations that we belong to change the message" imply that they currently have (or had) a message? From my perspective, they have utilized valuable funds "preaching to the choir" in lieu of educating the uninformed "soccer moms". For example, how many folks know that DSC has contributed funds to Oxford's ongoing lion research programs (the same folks that collared the late Cecil)? Why didn't the major "pro hunting" organizations provide a spokesperson(s) to discuss this debacle via Fox News, CNN, CBS, etc. I noticed that our ole friends Johnny Rodriguez and Pieter Scat, excuse me, I mean Kat, didn't miss this opportunity to advance their anti-hunting narrative. DSC Life Member HSC Life Member NRA Life Member SCI RMEF | |||
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AGREE!! I know three guys who are frequent contributors to TV, radio, and podcast media. All pay through a publicists to do so. This is how the message gets out. Not by preaching to the choir, not by sending out press releases that say what a great group we are, put by taking the message to the people. Doubt that works? The Kardashians' (I don't care if I spelled their name wrong) got to where they are via that method...super pacs get people elected that way, and a host of other personalities and groups do the same. Don't believe hunters could win the public over via this method? If you've ever heard "Beef: It's what's for dinner" or "The other white meat" then you know that's BS. Those two campaigns cost millions and look what they achieved. Hell, beef was all but down the toilet until that campaign. Today 88% of all Americans are familiar with that slogan. Saying we as a group can't change the public's perspective is an absolute crock of shit. One way to make sure hunting dies though...keep doing what we're doing. | |||
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Absolutely correct. If hunting dies it will be due to our collective apathy, inertia and ignorance. Mike | |||
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Gayne When asked by what I assume are anti hunters my answers is; "I hunt because it is natural for man to hunt just like any other Hunter gatherer! Humans are omnivores and as such it is natural for humans to hunt! But for people today depending on the packing plants to do their killing, and the farmers to grow their vegetables, everyone today would be hunters/gatherers! " .................................................................Mac  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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FYI - During my many, lively debates (via various social media) with rabid anti-hunters including the infamous Peshotan "The Myth" Pavri, several common issues and/or concerns always seem to surface during our debates. They include, but not limited to, the following: (1) non consumptive vs. consumptive tourism; (2) "CANNED" hunting; (3) photos - especially photos with hunters posing with one of the Big 5; (4) ethics - failure of hunters to police their own; (5) "TROPHY" hunting; (6) hunting revenues - blood money and support corrupt governments; and (7) hunters deriving "pleasure" from killing wild animals. Although these concerns and/or issues are "front and center" among the rabid anti-hunters, I suspect that they are of concern to the typical non-hunter as well. DSC Life Member HSC Life Member NRA Life Member SCI RMEF | |||
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Ask them if they get any pleasure from eating the bucket of Chicken wings when watching the Super Bowl. It's got NOTHING to do with getting your recommended daily protein quota let me tell you that much. Those chickens died for PLEASURE. As did the cow when you order that big steak on a Saturday night , or the full rack of ribs at the barbeque joint. AH , but they didn't have to do the killing , did they ? HMMMM.... | |||
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There is actually some good discussion in this thread. We all can hunt for whatever reason we want, but if we do not protect our right to hunt it will come to an end sooner than later. I do like the conservation message and feel it is a good story the average person can relate. I also like the message without showing people hunting. The other day a video was on my Facebook feed titled something like "30 kill shots in 30 seconds". I have grown very tired of that message. Did the beef commercial show a cow being hammered between the eyes before being skinned? Before anybody accuses me of being ashamed I use my real name even on this forum including my hunting reports, so I am not ashamed at all by my hunting. We do not have to all agree as to the best way to protect our rights or even the reason we hunt. Do you really believe all gun owners agree as to why they like to own guns or do the 5,000,000 members agree with everything the NRA does? The biggest problem I see is developing an organization to properly promote hunting to the general masses. IMO it will take a 1,000,000 member organization to have enough political clout and money. Maybe the NRA will take up our cause. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Should We Change The Message?
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