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Hey kids, Question time. For the past few years hunters have been “selling” hunting as conservation and while, yes, hunting is conservation, is that why any of us really hunt? I mean, when people ask me why I hunt, my first response is, “Because I really enjoy it” not “Because it’s conservation.” I like the fact that hunting IS conservation and that my hunting does good for species, the land, ecosystem, economy, etc…but that’s not WHY I hunt. So, should hunters and the organizations that we belong to change the message? Or stick with the PR campaign of conservation. Just curious to get some thoughts. And let’s stick on target, please and not have this segue into “Gayne can’t ask a question because he’s an outdoor writer and gets hunts for free…he’s been divorced…has poor financial skills…has an average size manhood…Obama is the devil…blah blah blah.” | ||
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Gayne, Agreed. I hunt because I just flat ass like it. Hunting's aid to conservation is a wonderful thing and it sustains our sport but it is not the reason I hunt by any means. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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I think all too often hunters start looking for reasons to explain why they hunt and look apologetic. I always say I hunt because I love hunting and the side benefit of it is that it supports conservation. Arjun | |||
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Gayne, you make a good point. Take my buffalo and tuskless hunt in Dande CAMPFIRE for example. Lots of people got to eat the meat, perhaps there are too many elephants in the area and the hunt was in fact a conservation tool, maybe some small part of the trophy fees went to the local community, etc. So there were benefits to many people from the hunt. But that was all secondary to the fact that I hunted the animals just because I wanted to for my own selfish reasons. Because it was challenging and potentially dangerous. But that's not a very good reason to share with non-hunters. I think trying to explain the benefits of hunting to people who are generally indifferent to the concept (the majority of people) should focus on such things as wildlife conservation, benefits to local people, economic impacts, etc. In other words, get them to see there is more to it than just killing something. For example, I work with a woman who thought I was the spawn of satan because I killed an elephant and a female one at that. I showed her some photos of the little kids in Dande who got to eat some of the meat and that made her think a bit that maybe there is more to it than she first thought. I also tell people about how Ducks Unlimited has put aside so many acres of wetlands over the years for waterfowl conservation versus exactly zero acres put aside through wishful thinking. And about how South Africa has essentially repopulated the game animals because of the economic benefits of hunting. It wasn't wishful thinking about "beautiful" animals that did that. But then again, our opposition operates exclusively on emotion and wishful thinking. Paul Smith SCI Life Member NRA Life Member DSC Member Life Member of the "I Can't Wait to Get Back to Africa" Club DRSS I had the privilege to fire E. Hemingway's WR .577NE, E. Keith's WR .470NE, & F. Jamieson's WJJ .500 Jeffery I strongly recommend avoidance of "The Zambezi Safari & Travel Co., Ltd." and "Pisces Sportfishing-Cabo San Lucas" "A failed policy of national defense is its own punishment" Otto von Bismarck | |||
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reddy 375 just hit the nail on the head | |||
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Agree, just wondering if there is a way - or could be a way - to share both messages. | |||
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I hunt because I like the challenge and the thrill, especially in Africa. I don't hunt certain species because of the conservation aspect, rhino. But i also hunt because the taste of a well prepared elk backstrap on the plate!!! Paul Gulbas | |||
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I made the suggestion earlier . . . rather than speculate on what messages resonate or do not resonate with those members of the public that are undecided or at least not militantly anti-hunting, why not have a public relations firm do a series of focus groups with statistically selected demographic groups to find out what they say. We can sit around and guess about messaging . . . why not ask the people that we are trying to influence and convince and see what they say they find persuasive. Not a particularly novel idea. When people ask me why I like to hunt in Africa, I tell them three reasons. One, it is an adventure. An opportunity to go somewhere different geographically and culturally, to meet new people and experience new things in an environment foreign to me. Two, it is a challenge. An opportunity to pit yourself emotionally and physically against an animal in its own environment. Three, it is a connection to the past. An opportunity to relive and experience a piece of history like Roosevelt, Selous, Sutherland, Bell and others experienced decades ago. Mike | |||
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Agreed. No one is stupid enough to buy that the primary purpose of killing a healthy animal is altruism. | |||
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Mike, I agree with both paragraphs. The NRA has ads running with emphasis on community, virtue, good behavior-nothing to do with rifles. They have done some market research to see what some demographic groups like to hear. Maybe it will help, who knows. Regarding the second paragraph, I find that I use those exact reasons for hunting apply to me, but it is actually even deeper than that. It boils down to who we are. There are two kinds of people, hunters and scavengers. I hunt because I AM a hunter. Can't be fixed or changed. (unlike Bruce Jenner) This may not be the PR message we need, but like the NRA, the message does not need to address who we are but rather what we want to portray. ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, duke of York ". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero - 55 BC "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand Cogito ergo venor- KPete “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.” ― Adam Smith - “Wealth of Nations” | |||
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I see both ways--I love to hunt, and every year I buy a hunting and fishing license with all the bells and whistles I know I will never use-ie-Salt water stamp, migratory bird stamp etc just because the money goes to good use. I have hunted the Rockies, the Southwest and Africa-living on my own ranch here in Texas, I haven't shot a mature buck in 5 yrs, just management/freezer deer. I grew up way out in the country, and truly love wild places, so in my case yes, in part I feel like my hunting is for preservation. Then you also have culling hunts for population control-- "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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That is it exactly. Paul Smith SCI Life Member NRA Life Member DSC Member Life Member of the "I Can't Wait to Get Back to Africa" Club DRSS I had the privilege to fire E. Hemingway's WR .577NE, E. Keith's WR .470NE, & F. Jamieson's WJJ .500 Jeffery I strongly recommend avoidance of "The Zambezi Safari & Travel Co., Ltd." and "Pisces Sportfishing-Cabo San Lucas" "A failed policy of national defense is its own punishment" Otto von Bismarck | |||
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Its a bloodsport with a secondary benefit of helping wildlife. Its helps wildlife cause you are harvesting a renewable resource in a economic activity. You may kill an eland or your favorite hunting animal but you are helping eland specie/herd as whole by giving it economic value. Resources with economic value and property rights are preserved. I am surprised SCI DSC don't focus on the resource economics aspects of hunting. Its dollars and cents and not very entertaining but it addresses the core issue. Tough to argue participating in a bloodsport for the benefit of the animal and conservation unless it put is a cost benefit framework. Giving trophies and awards for hunting and killing animals just seems crass to me. Mike | |||
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We have a tradition of hunter/conservationist that really began with Teddy Roosevelt. Back then it was understood why you hunted, see reasons in above posts. Here we are now with more and larger cities. The gulf between those who might visit a national park for a week once a year, being bombarded with everything on Nat Geo. being an endangered species and those who Hunt is, well...vast. To say I Hunt because its fun is like hitting them with a sledgehammer. WE need to define hunting, its not killing, I could volunteer in a slaughterhouse for that. Forming an accurate picture in non-hunters minds when they hear the word hunting will go a long way to understanding it is fun and exciting while immensely beneficial. Millions go hiking, bird watching, canoeing, climbing, exploring, camping and on and on. That's a BIG part of hunting. The killing of game, or rather the intent, is where you move from tourist to participant in nature and that is spiritual. That is hunting | |||
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Lots of good feedback...AND everyone's staying on topic! | |||
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So far, I have had no trouble explaining why I hunt to those who really don't have an opinion. I usually tell them a story or two about some of my most memorable hunts that didn't end in a harvest. When they find out I might go deer hunting 75 times a year and only take 1 or two deer. They get the message that it has nothing to do with me being blood thirsty. If they eat meat or wear leather products I like to point out a few things. Mainly that a wild animal has a chance to escape being harvested and a cow or chicken has no chance of escape. That usually opens there eyes too. I have walked in the foot prints of the elephant, listened to lion roar and met the buffalo on his turf. I shall never be the same. | |||
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When I am asked why I hunt, I ask them why they don't. In my mind hunting is a normal human activity. To deny that instinct is strange to me. Full time professional trapper | |||
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I always put it this way: It is one of the very rare things you can do as a person (another is having a kid) to experience the much-vaunted circle of life. Many people talk about it, but very, very few ever really know what it means. Most people touch the circle of life tangentially, at interspersed moments of time, but to take on the responsibility of a hunter and provider, especially in this day and age, and to recognize where we as humans fit into the natural world ( and we all live in the natural world even if we live in a high rise) is something not understood by the majority of people. I see my role as a part of conservation because I hunt a managed species, but it's not why i get that old fashioned feeling when the shadows get long, the temps drop and the leaves turn. That feeling is an atavistic one that I could no more deny than I could my own existence. | |||
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several really good thoughts and suggestions above. I will point out that there is a segment of the population that simply won't hear you, no matter what you say, if you are a "hunter." Doesn't matter if people and animals prosper because of your activity or not. Part of the solution for us hunters is to recognize there are many of these people and they won't be persuaded. "Dust off you shoes and go on" is the only way we can think about these folks. To go further on this topic for me would be against the OP's intent so I stop here. There are two camps. I am in one and there are many in the other. We are in contention with one another. That is normal. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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Your question is the one that was due to be asked as we have reached the edge of the cliff for hunting in Africa - next week I attend a workshop in South Africa which is a prelude to a symposium that may have its goal as to what is the future of hunting in Africa. It is hoped that all the invitees from every major african hunting organization will be in attendance. Cecil is the straw that almost broke the camels back and the global hunting industry finds itself having to take a deep look at itself and its future. Its all very well saying you hunt because you enjoy hunting. In the eyes of millions if not billions of people what you are saying is you like to kill animals for fun . This is no longer an acceptable statement to the people who will determine if you can hunt in the future or not - voters - be it corporate airlines /shippers or just the local wildlife authority that issues the licenses and permits. You may not like the fact that your voice is a rain drop in a ocean of people - you will be forced to move with the tide irrespective of your believe about hunting. Our workshop is like a last gasp for many countries in Africa - if the emotional outrage of the millions of voters is not rationalised = Africa will close to hunting in the near future - through sheer intervention from pressure groups on airlines , corporations , and eventually governments . The anti hunters in the disguise of animal welfare groups have already infiltrated CITIES and the IUCN = both bodies have vast influence of hunting in Africa. So although you dont need to justify why you hunt - the country that is allowing hunting has to justify to the international community why it is hunting its wildlife that is incorrectly stated as becoming endangered with extinction. So the only way is for them to push the message that hunting is a TOOL of conservation and that without funding etc from hunting it would be unable to conserve the animals that are hunted . You all know the arguments and motivation. The writings on the wall that Africa will be closed down if we dont take drastic action to counter the anti hunters messages. You will find a stronger message coming out of hunting and conservation organizations to plead with hunters to * tone down the showing off on public media trophies , and where trophies are displayed a much stricter guide as to what can be shown, DSC has taken a commendable lead and SCI has similar * to spend more on promoting and publicizing the benefits from hunting - community and social responsibillty programs. * more local participation * get more children and schools involved in outdoor activities . That's just a few of the possible changes. We all know what a hunt means - but we fail to grasp that billions of people dont - and its come to matter what they think and feel about hunting - more so than ever before. | |||
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I need to try summarize an article Ron Thomson wrote in The Outfitter Magazine : America has a culture of not profiting from indigenous wildlife - you can hunt it - eat it = but in general you cannot sell the meat for profit or trade in wildlife for profit ( except exotics and Texas) - so for the average LA or NY person the concept of hunting an elephant for profit and re-investing income back into conservation is not part of the culture - in Africa its the exact opposite - we have pushed for wildlife to be a tradeable commodity to empower impoverished communities and also as a bussiness for game farmers. So in the USA there is a culture of hunting but not for economic reasons = hence the average LA /NY big city dweller needs to be first educated about Africa and its situation of land and poverty and human wildlife conflict - once you get that information across they will reconcile your love of hunting with something good !! | |||
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I guess I should have stated that I know we can't change the public message from conservation to "I enjoy it" but was curious as to what all of you thought. Interesting takes thus far....and again, on topic! | |||
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Whoever said that conservation was the only or main reason we hunt? Most of us hunt for many different reasons - participation in the conservation of the animal species is just one factor. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Everyone has some excellent points. My way of looking at hunting? Love to stalk, look it over and kill it. Everything is secondary, even the meat. Simply, thrill of the hunt and been like that since 5 or six, before first grade. Many, many people don't understand and never will no matter what message we put out there. The only way we will continue to be able to hunt is to legislate hunting as human activity and therefore part of constitution as Pursuit of happiness and keep everyone off the subject. Long road ahead though There will always be some group that will wanna tell another group, that their activity is no good so they will try to ban it. Damn humans... " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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The message the non-hunting public needs to see is about habitat. There are probably 150 species on Royal Kafue, as an example, of which maybe 15 are hunted. Of the 15 that are hunted pretty much only mature or older males are generally taken, likely well less than 5% of the population of any species. The very small number taken secures the entire habitat for all species present. Furthermore, hunting concessions/properties commonly border parks and preserves, adding significant acreage to the intact habitat AND serving as an anti-poaching barrier that protects the park/preserve. Eliminate hunting by "rich foreigners" and all that habitat will be converted to some other use or simply destroyed, the wildlife will be poached out for bushmeat and the parks and preserves will be naked. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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What gets most people worked up is the word "Trophy". Even some hunters who say they are meat hunters don't like trophy hunters (I had an argument with a "meat" hunter on facebook  )I don't know if you guys in the states get a show called River Cottage, but the guy on that (a Chef) hunts birds, deer, rabbits and fishes, etc. His message is free range, drug free meat that is gathered sustainably and people love the show. That show has spawned a lot of other chefs doing the same and pushing the same message. Even though I hate the word harvest (I don't harvest I kill an animal) perhaps we should push the sustainable use of wildlife providing meat for our families AND an economic benefit to communities local and overseas. Lets move away from the use of the word conservation as most people don't understand why you kill an animal to conserve the population. When talking African hunting perhaps we focus on the creation of jobs, feeding local villages etc. Maybe a study should be done to compare how much of the money raised from organisations/charities actually goes to African communities and compare that to the money that hunting brings in. For instance a study done in Australia on the state of Victoria says that $439 million is spent on hunting in that small state alone. ------------------------------ A mate of mine has just told me he's shagging his girlfriend and her twin. I said "How can you tell them apart?" He said "Her brother's got a moustache!" | |||
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I tell people I hunt because I must, and I will hunt until I can't. Bill Quimby | |||
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"Hunting - because it's visceral." | |||
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It gives me a buzz. People Sleep Peacefully in Their Beds at Night Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready to Do Violence on Their Behalf. | |||
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I hunt because I enjoy it and will never apologize for it. I share the same feelings about hunting Africa as the ever so eloquent Mr. Jines. We have a responsibility conserving wildlife for future generations. We have seen successful conservation paid by hunters in the US and I believe that story has been told fairly well, namely ducks and deer. While every country is different my comments are geared toward southern Africa countries. I believe when we book hunts in Africa one of the questions should be "is the operator actually putting money back in his concession?". Operators with dedicated anti-poaching teams, self imposed restrictions on trophy size and age, and generally improve their land and local communities with projects and jobs should be rewarded with our business. Too many once great areas have been driven in the ground. Some of the Matetsi blocks come to mind as a good example of multiple operators selling hunts with no real stakeholders. As I understand Units 4 and 5 are in really bad shape now. Chirisa is another example of a once great area now in bad shape. While I know Parks plays a role in this, one cannot expect African government officials to be effective with just about anything, no different than in the US, that burden will always fall on the private sector. On the other end of the spectrum we have Bubye Valley Conservancy, Save Valley Conservancy, Nuanetsi Conservancy, Coutada Nine, the community based projects in Zambia such as Royal Kafue and Kanzutu, and many more. These guys all have great stories, taking land with little to no game and turning them in to models of conservation with high game densities and providing jobs for the local communities. Some even hold black rhino and it is all paid by hunters. In my opinion we have preached conservation through hunting to some degree within our ranks but not to the general public. Many hunters in the US do not have a clue about hunting Africa. In my experience the average Joe hunter believes we ride round and shoot animals off the back of the truck in a 1000 acre pen because that is what their buddy did, the average non hunter has watched the Lion King and goes to Animal Kingdom at Disney, and the rabid anti-hunters are in general half crazy and we will never change their mind. I feel we should strengthen the message. We have too many good example to prove our point that if it pays it stays. We know the anti's talking points and they are easily debunked. But the message needs to be in mass media. Putting it on AR, Safari Times, American Hunter, etc will not get to the base we need. It seems as though a good PR firm could get us time on at least Fox. PR is definitely not my forte' but we can do much better than we are now. (This where we can start bashing our hunter organizations) If we do not believe hunting is a model for conservation and support it with our actions, dollars, and writings I believe all is loss. At 52 years old I wonder why I even care. It is much easier to just go kill stuff and not give a damn. | |||
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Hard to say. I do it because I like it. I hate snow skiing because I don't like it. I support conservation because we are stewards of the land and the animals that live on that land. Being stewards, we are able to hunt, kill, eat and use the animal as long as we do not abuse or mistreat this gift we have been given. | |||
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To the anti-hunting community the connection to the past is history and they are looking at the present and the future; in their eyes, the likes of Roosevelt, Selous and Co. were just murderers of yesteryear's wildlife as we are today. The difference being there were no anti hunters back then and even if there were, were insufficient in numbers and had no voice to change the situation. Times have changed. | |||
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Who cares? The question is why do I hunt. If they agree or disagree with MY reasons is that really relevant. So we are supposed to give reasons that the anti-hunters will accept? Mike | |||
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Perfectly stated! +1 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Since we are a very minor minority, if we don't want a steady stream of laws limiting (and eventually outlawing) hunting, we better get our shit together and show non-hunters that wildlife in general is better off with ethical, regulated hunting than without it. "Screw you, I'll do what I want" is rarely a winning argument. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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Not the point. As I said above, let's do focus groups with non-hunters to determine what arguments resonate with them in defense of hunting. Then let's publicize and emphasize those arguments. Why we hunt is something different in my mind from the benefits of hunting. Mike | |||
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That was excellent Mike. Note that big Conservation organisations such as WWF, TNC and Africa Parks have endorsed hunting as long as it has proved to be responsible and sustainable. The difference is that they are on the ground where as a majority of antis are not. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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And the IUCN. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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The focus group is all well and good and worth a try. But somewhere along in this you find out that much of this disagreement is not merely your and our participation in hunting. The disagreement is deeper. This disagreement is not just with what your pursuits are; it is with you, and me and us across the board. It is political, and cultural, as well as economic and a host of other categories. This obviously doesn't apply for all non hunters or non supporters. But it is applicable to a leading wave portion of the so called antis. Next it will be your pick up truck, your water, . . . or whatever is next on the list. The good side of it is that there is likely more hunters, more hunting destinations, and more gun owners ( which of course makes hunters a target of the antis on that front ) than there has ever been. Pulling them all together - or all sportsmen for that matter is a wonderful thought. But it just doesn't happen. Not here on AR. Not duck hunters and black rifle guys. Not in the Gulf Coast fishery - what a mess and battle that is. Not in Harley guys and sport bike riders. Not in Porsche guys and Mustang guys. Those are just some of the ones I have seen. So the focus group could well spend some time on that too. | |||
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Indeed Matt and some of us use social media to get our message across and have succeeded in educating many. Whilst these are still anti hunting (for instance my wife) they/she understands the importance of our presence and practises in the field as a conservation tool. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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