I hesitate to write this as I am certain I will be blasted but what the heck.

I have been a life member for a long time. I estimate I have been going to the convention for 25 years. I consider myself a supporter. However, having said that, there are some things that I do not like in the least about SCI.

We went to the convention this year. Much to my surprise, I learned that a very good friend of mine was on the board. I thought about it and decided to send him an e mail about my concerns. I sent him the following e mail. I have taken his name out.
-----------------------------------------------
XXXXX:

I had zero idea that you were on the board of SCI. I am a life member and have been for many years. I think SCI has done a lot of good worldwide. I have been and will continue to be a supporter.

Having said that, there is a wave of discontent growing among the members for a variety of reasons. These include:

1- Failure to respond to virtually any question a member might have. For example, if someone asks how much did SCI spend on conservation in Africa last year, they never get an answer, ever!

2- If someone complains, there is never a response. For example, I literally know dozens of people that complained about Out of Africa. Not one word ever came back from SCI.

I personally know people that were taken for $60,000 by Usangu Safaris in TZ. They complained to SCI. SCI did nothing and continued to take donations and allow them into the show until there were so many people that they finally had to do something. The losses to members were in the millions at that point.

3- Some of the donations received are from extremely shady characters. I noted that Arnold Payne of Impala Safaris made a donation. Arnold should not even be allowed into the show. He is in with some of the Zim ministers that seized the property in the Save plus some other bad characters. He is selling hunts for some that are on the banned list. He was advertising a quota of 5 lions on Savuli . Savuli is only 14,000 acres. He has been sued and lost repeatedly. This guy is shady as they come. He is bad for hunting, bad for Zim and bad for SCI. By the way, his donated hunt was valued at $66,000 I think. Chifuti, a quality operator, donated more or less the same hunt in a better area for an assigned value of about half of Arnold’s.

I was personally floored by the number of hunts donated by South Africans in Zim. Only the most blind have no clue what the South Africans are doing in Zim.


4- How many of SCI PH’s of the year end up being criminals? A pretty fair number.

XXXXX, I am telling you the wave of discontent is building. SCI need to get a handle on these issues or they will have a problem in the future.

I sincerely hope that SCI can address these issues with the members in the future.

Thanks. Let’s go kill something!
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While this e mail got my friends attention, he is a volunteer. He has a large business to run. There were some major changes going on in his business. It took a while for things to move but they did move.

He had individuals from the Safari Club International Foundation contact me. I told them up front that I did not think they were necessarily the people to deal with the issues I raised. We discussed the issues set forth in my e mail to my friend. While they were most definitely concerned, I was correct, they were not the right people to discuss this matter. They vowed to alert the appropriate parties within SCI. I believe they have done so.

We had a lengthy discussion about the Foundation and what all it does. I was pretty satisfied with the discussion. Actually, I was impressed.

The following is an e mail I received from them. I, once again, have taken my friends name out.

------------------------------------------------

Mr. Shores:

Thanks for taking the time to visit with us yesterday. We shared your concerns with the convention staff and I’ll let xxxxx know that we’ve spoken in regard to your inquiries about the foundation’s efforts and spending in Africa. Please reach out to me or Matt with any remaining or future questions.

Many thanks for your interest and support. Let’s stay in touch as we want you to remain involved with our mission and conservation/education efforts.

I’ve attached a recent foundation highlights that I thought you may be interested in. We’re breaking new ground to grow our educational outreach with the Boy Scouts of America.

Also a recent NY Times Op-Ed on Lion Conservation: http://www.outdoorhub.com/news...-save-african-lions/

Backgrounders:

SCI Foundation Blog: http://firstforwildlife.wordpress.com/

SCI Foundation Conservation Home Page: http://www.safariclubfoundation.org/conservation

SCI Foundation Africa Page: http://www.safariclubfoundatio.../conservation/africa

Our Financial Page: http://www.safariclubfoundation.org/about/fiscal

Annual Report: http://www.safariclubfoundatio...g/about/annualreport

Warm regards – Bob Benson

Bob Benson
Executive Director
Safari Club International Foundation
13785 Research Blvd., Suite 125
Austin, Texas, 78750
bbenson@safariclub.org
512-655-2190 office
512-289-1921 mobile

Click here to donate now!

------------------------------------------------
I know that SCIF & SCI are blasted on AR for lack of information. I am going to take exception to that position. Before I do, let me explain that I am a CPA and what most would call a pretty high powered one. I am not doing personal tax returns for a living. I work in a very complex area. I work with insurance companies world wide. I know a whole lot more about taxes and financials statements than probably 99.99% of the population at large.

One has to understand that in the US, there are laws about exactly how financial statements and tax returns are presented. It doesn't matter what I want to see or what you want to see, there are requirements that MUST be met. Failure to do so has serious repercussions. Frankly, some of the complaints show absolute ignorance on the subject matter.

I have looked at these reports. I have to tell you that as a CPA, I think they are well done. While they may not show everything that you or I want to see, they are in total compliance with the requirements. One has to understand that no matter what business, financial statements and tax returns are only summaries at best. They are the STARTING point for evaluation of any organization. They cannot possibly answer all questions about any organization.

To digress slightly, I see this all the time. The National Association of Insurance Commissioners has prescribed exactly how they want the financial statements formatted and how the notes should be. I tell clients routinely that I would do it differently. However, these are the requirements. We have NO choice. SCI & the SCIF are in the exact same boat.

I told my friend about my conversation with the SCIF people. He had Phil Delone call me. Mr Delone is the CEO of SCI. He called me this afternoon.

I have to tell you that it was a very candid and surprising conversation. Many of you would be surprised to hear that he would agree with a lot of the complaints about SCI posted here on AR. While there are some points discussed that I am not sure I should disclose, let me provide some insight of the SCI thought process on certain matters. These are as follows:

1- Complaints need to be in writing and addressed to the correct person to get any attention. A call complaining gets no where especially a serious complaint.

2- SCI has to be extremely careful when taking action against anyone. They could be sued for libel, slander, tortuous interference with a business relationship etc. Thus they do not move as quickly as some would like to see. However, they do move.

3- I am going to go out on a limb and reveal that Arnold Payne has been banned from SCI, at least until her gets his act together.

SCI has refunded the price of the hunt auctioned in Reno that Arnold contributed.

4- SCI is well aware of the problems in Reno this year and the fact that many exhibitors lost money. They are working to avoid this again.

5- He explained the rationale for moving to Vegas. It is well thought out in my opinion.

6- He acknowledged certain wrongs in the past.

7- If you think SCI doesn't care about members opinions, you are wrong.

I have to tell you that I got off the phone very impressed by Mr Delone. I think he is all business. He is certainly working to making SCI a better organization. I personally have a renewed enthusiasm for SCI after this discussion.

I think a lot of opinions are formed on AR without knowing the whole story. A wise man once told me that ones position on any issue depends on which chair they are sitting in. I believe that a lot of people might have different opinions if they knew the whole story.

Finally, I asked Mr Delone to assign someone to review SCI related posts here on AR to see what the masses are saying. I advised that it would be enlightening.

I sent these e mails and had these calls in an attempt to ,hopefully, make a difference. I do not blindly support SCI.

Now, blast away.

Did he happen to give you a list of names and areas they cover so that we can send complaints to their, right person?
Did you discuss publishing this list on the SCI site?
Lastly, did your discussion cover the SCI internal investigation system? How many people are full time investigators? I would think a "We take this seriously" would benefit from a little bragging on SCI's part by promoting a devoted group within SCI whose job is entirely to police its members.

Nice follow through Larry.

Good post.

Hey, I have a tax question...

Larry-

Thanks for making the inquiries.

I personally have written off many of the AR complaints about SCI as I know they are often based upon a distinct lack of information on the part of the complainant. I do agree that SCI has done a very poor job of addressing member complaints, and since they are a club, they owe no explanations to anyone other than members. Hopefully you got some at SCI to pay attention to the member concerns, which are real, and I am in agreement that if SCI continues to ignore them, will only fester and result in no good for the club.

Well done.

Larry,

Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to make a real difference.

Good post Larry & thanks for taking the time to do your due diligence.

When you NEED something done....who do you give the job to? Usually someone who is already too busy.....someone who's character and life show committment. And someone NOT afraid of a fray.
Larry Shores - You're the Man.

Thank you for your time investment, care and action. I pray it comes to something!

Personally......I will try to keep and open mind, but if the PH's I choose to hunt with go to Dallas. I'm going to Dallas.
SCI = to Little, to Late! Some of us have changed loyalities. I am sorry to say this. But from what I have seen, Dallas has earned and deserves my time and money.

That said.......I will probably be in Vegas next year! Go figure.

Good work Larry!!

Thanks Larry!

Few step up, you have! I am proud to have you as a friend. Even just a dues paying shumk like me wants to beleive their membership dollars are helpful in supporting "doing the right thing".

Many Thanks

Brett

Larry:
No blasting should come from anyone here. You are to be commended for what you have done. I'm surprised you got any reply and this is a good start. I dropped SCI as I have always felt it was not First for Hunters but First for SCI.
On a personal note, I wish you asked them about the Mark Sullivan issue. Many here feel it was an unjust expulsion from the conventions.
Again, thanks for this. You are a gentleman.
Cal

This effort to high grade the quality of the posts recently will not go unpunished . . . are you a cloned alien?

Thanks Larry for a very thoughtful and well laid out post. I particularly appreciate that someone like yourself with expertise in the preparation and interpretation of financial statements took the time to review what they have prepared and qualitatively assess their quality. Now go do some work that you can bill some time for . . . .

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Larry:
No blasting should come from anyone here. You are to be commended for what you have done. I'm surprised you got any reply and this is a good start. I dropped SCI as I have always felt it was not First for Hunters but First for SCI.
On a personal note, I wish you asked them about the Mark Sullivan issue. Many here feel it was an unjust expulsion from the conventions.
Again, thanks for this. You are a gentleman.
Cal

Why dont you ask DSC why he was expelled?

SCI claims he was expelled because the videos he was displaying on his booth did not comply with the convention rules and he was asked to change them but he did not. Has Sullivan ever produced the documents from SCI convention to show why he was asked to leave?

Why dont you ask DSC why he was expelled?

Matt:
Good day.
I have asked SCI.
And also questions about high fence hunting within small enclosures (example-10.5 acre ranch for an elk hunt) and game violations by exhibitors.
Not a reply or acknowledgement.
But, I don't have Larry's clout.
Cheers,
Cal

Thanks for your efforts Larry!

Larry

Good post and thanks for not only the post but also for taking the trouble to pursue the issue. Time will tell whether SCI are willing to walk the walk as well as talk the talk on these issues but the fact that they've even replied is a good start. So maybe the newest President is willing to address the old criticisms and try to correct them.

Lion Hunter,

I hope you won't mind me correcting you somewhat. SCI are (according to their own constitution) a corporation rather than a club . Just because the word club occurs in their title doesn't make them one.

(IMO) If SCI can change their tune then they could become an immensely powerful force for good in African hunting and game conservation.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

I hope you won't mind me correcting you somewhat. SCI are (according to their own constitution) a corporation rather than a club . Just because the word club occurs in their title doesn't make them one.

I think you will find you can be a corporation and a club at the same time. Correct me if I am wrong but the club leadership is elected by delegates, not appointed by a board of directors??

I can correct myself - looks like they are elected by a Board but that doesnt appear to be the Executive alone but a large number of elected directors.

You will find most large "clubs" in the US are corporations. It is a liability thing.

My point is their own constitution describes the organisation as a corporation and the links explain the difference.

I appreciate the ordinary member sees it largely as a club and there's nothing wrong with that but the fact that in reality, it's a corporation means it's run as a business and not a simply a club.

Whilst I'm not a great fan of SCI (as many here know) I can't but help admire the way it's run as a corporation/business. Let's face it, they can't be doing too badly for themselves if they can afford that HQ of theirs and no matter who you are or what you think of them, you can't help but admire their business acumen!

Hell, even if they address and correct half of the things Larry mentions, I might even rejoin.

Great amount of work and solid writing; Thank you, Larry.

I truly want to keep supporting SCI, especially The Foundation. Its hard to do so with so much negative (and, possibly true, postings).

I recently received my Safari News newspaper where the IMPORTANT role of local chapters was emphasized. However, where exactly is the CONNECTION (particularly re: complaints, "bad" hunts auctioned, etc.) between SCI Intl. and those LOCAL Chapters??

Thanks Larry, very informative.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
My point is their own constitution describes the organisation as a corporation and the links explain the difference.

I appreciate the ordinary member sees it largely as a club and there's nothing wrong with that but the fact that in reality, it's a corporation means it's run as a business and not a simply a club.

Whilst I'm not a great fan of SCI (as many here know) I can't but help admire the way it's run as a corporation/business. Let's face it, they can't be doing too badly for themselves if they can afford that HQ of theirs and no matter who you are or what you think of them, you can't help but admire their business acumen!

Hell, even if they address and correct half of the things Larry mentions, I might even rejoin.

Steve: A corporation is the legal form of certain entities who choose to organize themselves that way under applicable state laws. Virtually all "clubs" and charities are organized as corporations under applicable state law. Other examples would be the YMCA, Rec Cross, United Way, etc. As an FYI, 3 of us (members of AR) are in the process of forming a charitable organization to help PH's injured in their line of work. It is being organized as a corporation under the laws of Pennsylvania.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
My point is their own constitution describes the organisation as a corporation and the links explain the difference.

Links to an online dictionary don't mean anything. SCI is a hunting club - I don't see anything about making money in their 'mission' or 'purpose and objectives'.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
I don't see anything about making money in their 'mission' or 'purpose and objectives'.

They don't do too badly when it comes to making money though do they?

Very well thought out post with pointed questions. Nice job indeed!

Larry,

I can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking your own time to follow through and get some answers to questions we've all had. Facts without speculation. How refreshing.

THX

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by joester:
Great amount of work and solid writing; Thank you, Larry. I truly want to keep supporting SCI, especially The Foundation. Its hard to do so with so much negative (and, possibly true, postings). I recently received my Safari News newspaper where the IMPORTANT role of local chapters was emphasized. However, where exactly is the CONNECTION (particularly re: complaints, "bad" hunts auctioned, etc.) between SCI Intl. and those LOCAL Chapters??

The connection is that SCI's dozens of local chapters make the club's important decisions and set policy for the international organization.

Unlike groups such as Ducks Unlimited, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, the sheep clubs and the NRA, each SCI chapter selects a member of SCI's board of directors.

This board, selects the executive committee, which oversees the executive director and staff for SCI's routine operations.

The various representatives of the local chapters have final say over everything.

Bill Quimby

Well I Will go out on a limb here as well.
It is hard to post anything on AR, much less a positive opinion of SCI due to the sniping and you get pulled into personal vendettas and a waste of time. I will take the plunge anyway as there are a number of open minds out there.
I am a SCI member. I display every year at their fundraiser, with very poor results. I do not appreciate for one minute how they treat the exhibitors, except to leach every drop of money they can. I think a vast majority of what is done is for a few at the top and those who like to pretend theirs is “bigger than yours” at any cost. It is mind numbing what they manage to extort out of us, but it is the place to “be seen” in the industry, whether I like it or not.
At the same time I serve on one committee, the Conservation Committee. This is the one legitimate branch of the organization, in my opinion. This is a group of VERY dedicated hunters who try to find WORTHY places to support conservation. Like myself, most of the group are biologists, many from State Fish and Game departments. Our discussions are Biology based and we try to base who and what we support on the quality of the requests. Most requests are from Fish and Wildlife State organizations that are doing really good work. We are the link between SCI and SCI foundation and are managing to get funds into true conservation efforts.
Yes, it did not always used to be this way, but I can speak for the current group.
I will be flying to Washington, on my own dime, to attend the next meeting. I have volunteered to go to Zambia for an all Africa conservation meeting to act as the French interpreter so West Africa can be represented, again on my own dime.
They were very instrumental in the last CITES meeting to represent hunters and hunting. They are really doing a lot of good, and yes they have idiots in the organization, just like EVERY other organization I know of…maybe even including AR.
I just think we should all pull the same direction.
Camshaft

It's a complex business and for most of us regular guys is probably impossible to understand
SCI is great organization I like it and that's all that matters so you naysayers quit complaining
You don't wear those shoes so when you do then you'll see the picture

Thanks, Larry! Good effort!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
I don't see anything about making money in their 'mission' or 'purpose and objectives'.

They don't do too badly when it comes to making money though do they?

You might think it is funny but I do not.

I don't see any dividends being paid to shareholders.

In regard to joesters question about Chapters and auction complaints - i believe that the regional reps are the ones who handle that. They are listed on the website I noticed.

It is obvious that the enquiries/complaints have to be directed to the correct people, or they do seem to get lost in the organisation.

SCI did an awesome job in Thailand this year, and those CITES arguments take a lot of time and money. My membership dues don't go there; the hunts I buy next month at the Chapter Fundraiser will, in a small way.
Worldwide hunting is so much better with them around.

Thanks Larry...Great post

Matt

Yes mate. I do think it was funny....... actually, I think it was hysterically funny and I'm still smiling about it now!

But I also think that neither of us will ever convince the other about the endless debate as to who/what is right or wrong with SCI.

Rather than argue ad-nauseum about the good and bad points of SCI, how about we rather concentrate on the good side of this and both congratulate Larry on his efforts and what discuss the new(ish) regime can and will do to improve the situation?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

Rather than argue ad-nauseum about the good and bad points of SCI, how about we rather concentrate on the good side of this and both congratulate Larry on his efforts and what discuss the new(ish) regime can and will do to improve the situation?

....and 'correct' people with ad nauseum bullshit make-believe - to further your own anti-SCI campaign.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

I hope you won't mind me correcting you somewhat. SCI are (according to their own constitution) a corporation rather than a club . Just because the word club occurs in their title doesn't make them one.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Matt

Yes mate. I do think it was funny....... actually, I think it was hysterically funny and I'm still smiling about it now!

But I also think that neither of us will ever convince the other about the endless debate as to who/what is right or wrong with SCI.

Rather than argue ad-nauseum about the good and bad points of SCI, how about we rather concentrate on the good side of this and both congratulate Larry on his efforts and what discuss the new(ish) regime can and will do to improve the situation?

We shall wait and see the results.

What is that old saying?

Actions speak louder than words!

Well other than Larry all you see here are words, nuff said!

Larry
Many thanks and well done on walking the walk, as mentioned elsewhere on this forum , I have participated in the SCI donation program for over 15 years and this has seen our company ranked in the top 100 companies in SCI , so I dont think I need to qualify my comments. hence I refer back to a translated Tswana saying told to us by a high ranking Nkosi = let the crying happen , the people must cry to feel better , and then you carry on just the way you were. SCI do this - they dont comment /reply , and wait for the complaint to just go away - so well done on getting some feedback , it was largely generic and the classic customer service response of agreeing with the complainent , getting empathy for how difficult it is - then simply doing frog all.
We are booked for Vegas but are gearing everything down, as to invest in SCI now is just backing a toothless deaf dog.