On Jim Shockey's show this weekend, there was a cow elephant charge shown in the opening segments. If you were the PH or client in the scene, would you have shot that cow or not?

465H&H

Since I am the only person left on earth w/o cable, tell me what happened? How close was the cow?

As a PH I hunted with one time said, a warning shot between the eyes is always good!

I would be inclined to shoot Shockey first. He is one of my least favorite self-promoters.

OK...Kensco,

I can't help it that cracked me up!!

Is Shockey carrying the old "smoke pole?" A 50 cal muzzleloader is no implement to be stopping a charging elephant with. I'll opt for my .458 Lott any day in that situation.

It appears to be Shockey and I can't tell about the rifle except it appears to be a scoped TC single shot. I don't want to give away anymore because I want you all to decide on the first go around if you shot and if so when.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Since I am the only person left on earth w/o cable,

Not quite, there are two of us apparently.
Brent

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Since I am the only person left on earth w/o cable,

Not quite, there are two of us apparently.
Brent

Nope, 3 of us.
BTW, who is Jim Shockey?

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
On Jim Shockey's show this weekend, there was a cow elephant charge shown in the opening segments. If you were the PH or client in the scene, would you have shot that cow or not?

465H&H

Not with a muzzle loader!

I didn't see the show, but long lenses are often used to misrepresent what really happened.

I love AR eight replies and no one has anwsered the question.
I saw the clip Shocky and the PH were in front of the camera so no long rang lense effect was possible. It looked like the cow stoped less than 10yd in front of Shockey and the PH. I think I would have been shooting.

DR B

I'm number 4 without cable, and I didn't see the show, but based on what Dr B said, I'd have hit her right between the eyes At 10 yds, if she hadn't stopped, and maybe my distance judgement wouldn't have been as good as Dr B's! I might have hit her a little early, but as 500 says, not with a muzzleloader!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
based on what Dr B said, I'd have hit her right between the eyes

Isn't that way too high? I thought you were an "expert"

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
based on what Dr B said, I'd have hit her right between the eyes

Isn't that way too high? I thought you were an "expert"

If you had shot when you first see the charging cow, a shot between the eyes would have been waaaay too low!

465H&H

#5 without cable, and it doesn't bother me one bit. I pay for fiber optic high speed internet, but refuse to pay for crap cable TV, half of which are QVC type duplicates.

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
based on what Dr B said, I'd have hit her right between the eyes

Isn't that way too high? I thought you were an "expert"

things up a little are you?

You are correct, at 10 yds,(30 feet) the target would be the bottom of the slight hump at the top of the trunk, but exactly between the eyes for left to right positioning to hit the brain! I'm 5' 9" and that is the angle for me on flat ground. or so I'm told by the "EXPERTS"! However, I'm a Buffalo hunter, not an elephant hunter.

You thought I was an "Expert" ? Then you thought wrong,as far as elephant are concerned, but I'm still alive, and don't have one scar on my body from a wild animal, to show for 60years of hunting,"bite backs" on my own!

All the "EXPERTS" are one time African hunters,or just readers of magazine writers BS,who are one time African hunters, and most became EXPERTS before their 21 yrs of age today!

If this is the same scene I am thinking of the PH was there and ready if things got out of control. My guess is that this was not the first time that elephant bluff charged so I believe the PH knew what to expect. I do however believe that had she come much closer lead would have been in the air. What amazed me about the clip is how fast Jim Shockey can run!

I shot a charging cow at about 7yds between the eyes and, from first hand experience, can tell you that it was way too low for THAT cow which had her head held low. But it did stop her on a dime!




A bluffing elephants, or at least the ones I've seen, have had there heads held higher.

USE enough gun!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by The Shottist:

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Since I am the only person left on earth w/o cable,

Not quite, there are two of us apparently.
Brent

Nope, 3 of us.
BTW, who is Jim Shockey?

Believe it or not there are four of us.
Cable TV, cell phones and high speed internet all went by the wayside when I decided to start saving to go to Africa.

Greg J good for you. You are making the right choices on how to spend your money!

It is too bad that more of you haven't seen this clip as I think it is an excellent example of how difficult it is to tell a mock elephant charge from a real one.

Let me set the scene for those that haven't seen it. As it opens we have Shockey on our left and a person I presume is the PH on the right. Both have their guns up but Shockey is actually looking over the scope at the cow. The PH appears to have his head down on the stock and is tracking the cow. The cow is first seen coming fast with her head down low in what I feel is a full charge position. It is hard to determine distance in this case but I estimate she charges from about 15 yards and stops at around 10 to 12 yards where and raises her head and shifts to her right a step, she then shifts to her left, screams and lowers her head again in the full charge position while coming a step or two closer. There is a bush in front of the PH about head height so you can only see her head. About this time you see a small, approximately a 1 year old calf by her right side. The scene then closes without anyone firing their rifle. The whole sequence lasts about three seconds. I beleive it was a mock charge and up to the point of the scene closing their was no need to shoot. Although, it was as scary and determined a mock charge as I have seen. Looks like the PH called it right up to the point of closing. I could easily see a less experienced hunter or PH shooting her. I would like to know what happened after that scene ended. The scene only lasted three seconds.

465H&H

I personally would have shot, shot shit all in my pants!

quote:

Originally posted by FRANKIE2000:
I personally would have shot, shot shit all in my pants!

That is the fun of hunting Jumbo!

Shockey may have felt more comfortable about the situation if he didn't have a scoped rifle. Way to close for a scope in my opinion, but not too close to give warning shot and shout down. Of course, it is all a matter of personal tolerance, but 5-7 yards is close and time to shoot. Glad they didn't in this case as a young dependent elephant standing over its mother is not a sight to see. Nerve wracking for even a experienced hunter--I am told.

Had young bull charge us on sand flat of dry river last summer and got closer than that before he broke it off and the PH was yelling at me to not shoot. BUT, INHO it is not as scary on the sand with the frontal brain shot in perfect view vs an ele coming through the Jesse partially obscured.

Hope they repeat the show soon!

Dak

Sorry to hijack the thread and also if this has been seen by everyone before, but this ele would have probably had a bullet had I been the PH:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsqH4cy6v8g

How about you?

My PH's...the 3 I've hunted with so far...say their "go or no go" is 15 yards. That, plus they say, as someone else posted, that the head position can tell the tale. With a full charge, and the elephant's ability to cover some serious ground fast, I say BANG. A cow charged our Land Cruiser in Zim last fall....she wasn't mocking. Luckily, she was off the rear quarter and the PH drove away fast...the game scout and tracker were squealin' tho'. With the poachers and snares that abound these days, according to my PH, the "mocks" seem less frequent.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI

JTH,

The first elephant, the one on the grass flat, is doing all sorts of gesturing, telling you that its time to leave, but not yet time to shoot.

The second one, in the scrub, has its head up. It would take but a second to put it down and keep on coming. I wonder if that one ended up getting shot. I would be trying to shout it down. I would have been ready to kill it.

The big boy is demonstrating. Not time to shoot. But when he put his head down, for just a moment, and took a couple of steps, it looked like he was going to come and I might have shot him right then. With 20/20 hindsight it would have been a mistake.

BTW, the elephant in the photos I posted came within 7yds. She got a warning shot too but to no avail.

Another elephant in the same herd passed by the clearing and clearly thought of coming but moved on. As she moved on a half grown and a smaller calf, that we couldn't see, followed her. The one that came was next in line and was alone.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by GarBy:
My PH's...the 3 I've hunted with so far...say their "go or no go" is 15 yards. That, plus they say, as someone else posted, that the head position can tell the tale. With a full charge, and the elephant's ability to cover some serious ground fast, I say BANG. A cow charged our Land Cruiser in Zim last fall....she wasn't mocking. Luckily, she was off the rear quarter and the PH drove away fast...the game scout and tracker were squealin' tho'. With the poachers and snares that abound these days, according to my PH, the "mocks" seem less frequent.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI

In Zimbabwe, National Parks considers 10 meters the dividing line for self defence.

465H&H

JTH, havent seen that before but that ele is one huge mutha! I never thoght about the dust they might create whilst stamping out their frustration. That scene makes me think a howitzer is about the right gun.

_BAxter

The elephant was close, but the hippo in the opening segment was ALOT closer.

i am, apparantly one of seven people in the entire world to not have cable. i havent even had a tv for 3 or 4 years.

having never been to africa, i really couldnt say if i would have shot the ele. i would have however made a mound of bricks because that is what i would have shat out... large bricks.

geoff

OOORAH!!!

Its always very hard to answer this question or even speculate unless one was actually there ...i am often asked this , and i have to say with each scenario the answer is different , how thick the bush is , the nature of the elephant , the nature of the charge..confidence in ones client. ninety percent of charges from an unwounded animal will stop if one faces the animal squarely and waves or shouts ... i have had numerous charges stop as soon as i lift my rifle and shout ...

there have been three occasions, one in a hunting scenario , the others in photos safari scenarios where i was forced to shoot elephant bin self defense, two of the three were carrying AK 47 bulletts the third was a cow that came from over 100 yards and when we shouted she almost speeded up ...we shot her at 6 yards and cound see nothing wrong untill we skinned her and she had a cracked tusk that was in pretty bad shape..

the point is , no matter how good one is with elephant , you never know what has happenend to that animal in the last 24 hours.

the one consolation is that elephant have excellent body language and with experience one can easily see whats real and what not ...

i have some pictures to illustrate this , just have to figure out how to post !!!

the above elephant was not serious anbd came in shuffling , trumpetting and kicking dust ...as opposed to the below which was a cow that came in completely silently ...we were hunting cows and my client shot her at about 4 yards .

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u136/swifttortoise/bettsstil3.jpg

this was a scenario where we had shot a cow , and a calf was caugfht up in the mess , the mother of the calf came boiling out of the bush and challenged us , as soon as she was past the loine of her calf she hurriedly turned and backed out ...note the dead cow at her feet



thios was a mock chareg i photographed , even though it looks real , he stopped as soon as i shouted

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u136/swifttortoise/CHARGE.jpg

this below , noisy , trunk swinging , head shaking is body language that shows bluss and not serious ...



this last one is a cow i was filming and she was shaking her head and shouting at me , notice though that hse has no intention of getting closer



hope you enjoy these pics as much i i enjoyed the experiences ...

hope this post works !!!!

somehow missed this one , the cow at 4 yards

sorrty the piucs are so big , guess i still have a lot to learn with this ...

Ivan,

I hope you do not misread one of those someday.

Ivan,

Your four yarder makes my seven yarder look long distance. So do a couple of others.

In my photo the cow was about a yard or two closer at the first shot. The second shot is captured in the photos. We paced it off to her footprints, less one yard. She came silently. Hardly reacted to a shot over her head, maybe just accelerated. She seemed to pick uot the photgrapher, Dave Hulme, or the tracker to his right.

If you look at the eyes on the cow in my photos, where she is still coming, it seems evil. Any way to read their eyes?

BTW, you are a lefty too!

Like Will, I hope you read them right and one doesn't change its mind.

Thanks for the photos.

JPK

Ivan!

Great pictures and you done well with your posting of them. I have seen three mock charges and two "I'm cuming to kill you charges!" During both of the for real charges the cows were silent and held their heads much lower than in any of the pics we have seen posted here. Also they never raised their heads from that low position throughout the charge. With the mock charges they did some screaming. In your opinion do elephants hold their heads very low on serious charges and do they come silently compared to mock charges?

465H&H

yes , you are right , silent and very low heads ..

as a rule of the thumb , if the head is higher than the shoulders you will probably be okay ...the exception is young bulls showing off...those guys are best left well enough alone as they are the least predictable ...

all elephants that i have shot for "real charges" the bullet entry point has been right through the top of the skull showing just how low their heads were ...

IMO the trunk is also "tucked" up under them on a real charge.

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:
all elephants that i have shot for "real charges" the bullet entry point has been right through the top of the skull showing just how low their heads were ...

Which is why a shot "between the eyes" is too low and misses the brain.

"Higher on the forehead" is a better description though than "top of the skull," while neither is worth much to a guy trying to learn where to shoot.