agreed bill ,though you dont even see the forehead in a real charge as its facing the ground .. which is why i usually give a client a lot of reference pics ahead of time , if you stand up and then bend down so that someone can see the top of your head..thats literally how far they drop their heads ..often in the case of a zim cow the head will be just a few feet off the ground ...

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:
all elephants that i have shot for "real charges" the bullet entry point has been right through the top of the skull showing just how low their heads were ...

Which is why a shot "between the eyes" is too low and misses the brain.

"Higher on the forehead" is a better description though than "top of the skull," while neither is worth much to a guy trying to learn where to shoot.

"Cutting the middle of the broomstick between the ear holes" seems like the appropriate plan. Works for almost any angle.


465H&H

What's the consenses on the eyesight of the elephant?? I have read that it is relatively good within 15-20 yards. If that is true then they can clearly see you if you are in the open waving your arms. Does this mean that these guys are intent on squashing you if they get closer that 8-10 yards? Or are they still thinking about it?
The hearing seems to be quite good close in and the sense of smell seems to be quite developed as some elephant were caught backtracking us in the Jesse.
Richard Harland in his recent book conducted experiments with tame elephant and found their sense of smell equal to a hunting dog.

Dak

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:
all elephants that i have shot for "real charges" the bullet entry point has been right through the top of the skull showing just how low their heads were ...

Which is why a shot "between the eyes" is too low and misses the brain.

"Higher on the forehead" is a better description though than "top of the skull," while neither is worth much to a guy trying to learn where to shoot.

"Cutting the middle of the broomstick between the ear holes" seems like the appropriate plan. Works for almost any angle.


465H&H

Well, since I have never asked a PH about the brain shot I have done it on my own, and the broomstick is the way to go (sort of). Eventually I think one can develop a sense of where the brain is and be able to "see" the brain as some like Richard Harland state.

I will never have the chance to have enough experience to develop this ability to unquestionably "see" the brain but I'm pretty close. When you can instantly see where to shoot, such as in the pics posted by Ivan, without having to think about it then you are on your way, I think.

The broomstick thing is to shoot lightly too high because the center of the brain is slightly lower than the "earholes" on the side of their head which are slightly above the actual earhole in the skull, around which the brain is centered. Is that spiltting hairs?

But when they come, I just hope I can "see" close enough.

When I speak of the ear holes I am talking about the ear holes in the skull and not the ear slits. The ear hole is actually located about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the ear slit. If you aim at the middle of the ear slit you will be near the top of the brain and not it's center.

No, Will your not splitting hairs we are splitting ear slits!

465H&H

Ain't this fun?

On eyesight, I think elephants can see pretty well. About as well as they want to if they want to pay attention to you. How else could they see you and know what you are from 100 or more yards away? If they are being oblivious I think they ignore everything except close up.

JPK

Where was this Shockey thing filmed at? He was the next hunter after me in Tanzania last year. There were some very ill tempered cows in that area. The PH was definitely concerned about them every single time we saw them.

on eyesight ,

as long as you are still , they dont really see very well ....unless they are looking for something , if they have heard or smelt you they will adjust the level of their heads and on closer inspection you will see their eyes wide open ...this way they actually see pretty well , when they are feeding or relaxing , as long as you dont move fast they dont see well ..

interesting to note is that calves see very well and i have often been close to cows that are oblivious and its the calves that notice you ... that said , they are also less focused on feeding and usually are playing and running around more ..

as far as the broomstick through the ears ...thats an excellent technique and manner of explaining that i use often ...the biggest thing is to remember that the brain is right at the back of the skull where the skull pivots on the first vertebrae..so a point of reference on the exterior skin is actually useless...

this is a photo of a skull i cut in half with a chainsaw ... and below is the same skull superimposed on an elephant ...note just how much flesh there is around the bone and how actually small the brain is in comparison to the whole mass ...also take not how far back..


one thing people often miss , es[pecially with the shot where the elephant lifts his head , is that you are actually shooting at an upward angle ...so need to aim lower ..

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:


the above elephant was not serious anbd came in shuffling, trumpetting and kicking dust ...

Great photo. But I don't think that is the proper grip on your double. Your trigger finger seems to be too far from the trigger.

By the way, were you trying to negotiate with him? I would prefer a heavy rifle to negotiation where elephant are concerned; however, I must confess that I have never tried your method, nor seen it tried. I have heard tales of such things, but they never seem to have turned out very well for the humans involved.

Clearly, it must have worked, or you wouldn't be posting. The elephant's head is cocked as though he were listening intently.

What were you saying to him? "I shall be forced to strike you with my rifle butt if you do not desist from this rude behaviour!" Or words to that effect?

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
The elephant's head is cocked as though he were listening intently.

I think that is his "you gotta be joking" pose.

Brent

it was at the end of a big shuffle , ears very floppy , hence the look that they are flopped forward , the pic was taken from farther back and so he looks a lot closer than you would imagine ...he was about 5 yards ...and actually backing off ... pity you cant post video as this pic was taken from the clip ...

I saw that clip (or a similar one) a couple years ago. He was way too close for me!

One thing that has not been mentioned yet (I think as i did not re-read the entire thread) is that on a real charge, the ears are "swept" back against the skull whereas on a mock charge, the ears are out wide or flapping.

Ivan,
at what distance do they lower their heads. Would they do this just as they are about to strike as with buff?

[quote]quote:
Originally posted by ivan carter:


the above elephant was not serious anbd came in shuffling, trumpetting and kicking dust ...


Great photo. But I don't think that is the proper grip on your double. Your trigger finger seems to be too far from the trigger.

By the way, were you trying to negotiate with him? I would prefer a heavy rifle to negotiation where elephant are concerned; however, I must confess that I have never tried your method, nor seen it tried. I have heard tales of such things, but they never seem to have turned out very well for the humans involved.

Clearly, it must have worked, or you wouldn't be posting. The elephant's head is cocked as though he were listening intently.

What were you saying to him? "I shall be forced to strike you with my rifle butt if you do not desist from this rude behaviour!" Or words to that effect?

MR

Didn't Treadwell do stupid shit like this

DR B

Bwanamich,

I have seen for real charges both with ears back and ears out. I have seen bluff charges with both ears back and ears out. Since I have seen both in each situation, I sure wouldn't rely on ear position.

JPK