What the hell does this have to do with African hunting? Please move this thread to the Big Bore forum....................

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Saeed's .404 Jeffery gets over 2600 fps with his 405 grain .423 caliber Walterhog bullet in a 14" twist Lothar Walther barrel that is 25.5" long, Norma brass, F215 primer, 3.680" COL. Admittedly this is long nose seating in a long magazine box, slightly longer than the usual COL for the .404 Jeffery, but if one used the shorter 400 grain Woodleigh or Swift bullets and kept the COL less than 3.600" in the usual .404 Jeffery, anyone can do much the same:

VVN550 90.0 grains: 2618 fps

H4350 96.0 grains: 2610 fps

Varget 86.0 grains: 2591 fps

VVN540 85.0 grains: 2588 fps

H4831SC 97 grains: 2487 fps

Anyone with a CZ 550 Magnum or Winchester M70 or other modern/strong action in .404 Jeffery can do very similar, if he can get all that powder in the case!

Saeed's driving banded Walterhog no doubt reduces pressures and ups the speed.

However, both Carmello and I were getting very equivalent results to Saeed's Varget loads using Woodleigh or Swift .423/400gr bullets, and correcting for my 24" barrel and Carmello's 26" barrel.

Not for pre-WWII "opened up" M98's.

Mine is an M70 with 10" twist McGowen stainless barrel.
I also have a CZ with 25" barrel of same McGowen 10" twist in chromemoly.

My SWAG on pressures with Varget in my rifle (COL variously 3.500" to 3.590"in an H&H length box):

Woodleigh 400grRNSP//81.0gr-Varget//2401fps//50,000psi

North Fork 380grSP//83.0gr-Varget//2528fps//55,000psi

North Fork 340grSP//88.0gr-Varget//2725fps//60,000psi

All safe in a modern/strong action.

Thank you RIP you pretty much stated everything I would have said, however your post was more eloquent.

quote:

Originally posted by Mitchell Attlewood:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Saeed's .404 Jeffery gets over 2600 fps with his 405 grain .423 caliber Walterhog bullet in a 14" twist Lothar Walther barrel that is 25.5" long, Norma brass, F215 primer, 3.680" COL. Admittedly this is long nose seating in a long magazine box, slightly longer than the usual COL for the .404 Jeffery, but if one used the shorter 400 grain Woodleigh or Swift bullets and kept the COL less than 3.600" in the usual .404 Jeffery, anyone can do much the same:

VVN550 90.0 grains: 2618 fps

H4350 96.0 grains: 2610 fps

Varget 86.0 grains: 2591 fps

VVN540 85.0 grains: 2588 fps

H4831SC 97 grains: 2487 fps

Anyone with a CZ 550 Magnum or Winchester M70 or other modern/strong action in .404 Jeffery can do very similar, if he can get all that powder in the case!

Saeed's driving banded Walterhog no doubt reduces pressures and ups the speed.

However, both Carmello and I were getting very equivalent results to Saeed's Varget loads using Woodleigh or Swift .423/400gr bullets, and correcting for my 24" barrel and Carmello's 26" barrel.

Not for pre-WWII "opened up" M98's.

Mine is an M70 with 10" twist McGowen stainless barrel.
I also have a CZ with 25" barrel of same McGowen 10" twist in chromemoly.

My SWAG on pressures with Varget in my rifle (COL variously 3.500" to 3.590"in an H&H length box):

Woodleigh 400grRNSP//81.0gr-Varget//2401fps//50,000psi

North Fork 380grSP//83.0gr-Varget//2528fps//55,000psi

North Fork 340grSP//88.0gr-Varget//2725fps//60,000psi

All safe in a modern/strong action.

Thank you RIP you pretty much stated everything I would have said, however your post was more eloquent.

Mitchell/Carmello,

When are you go to share pictures of your 46" buff?? Also, I am sure we are all waiting with baited breath at new photos of the 404j/" 423 Carmello". Please please share.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanahile:

Mitchell/Carmello,

When are you go to share pictures of your 46" buff?? Also, I am sure we are all waiting with baited breath at new photos of the 404j/" 423 Carmello". Please please share.

The pictures were posted some time ago in this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
RIP,

The H-4831SC load ? What brand case are you using?

I've got a bunch of Norma cases sitting in the loading room. What is your OAL with the Wooleigh bullets?

Greg

Greg,
That COL was only 3.488" for me with the Woodleigh Weldcore. The bullet nose sticking out beyond the case is 0.600" to 0.675" (cannelure about 0.075" wide) depending on how you crimp or don't.

The bullet overall length is 1.285", so the looooong .404 Jefferey case neck grips more than 0.6" of shank. Secure for sure.

The brass is Norma max 2.860", trim to 2.850".

Primer F215 or GM215M, no difference.

Some rifles are tighter bore/groove diameter, different width of lands, etc., might get higher pressures and velocities with less powder. Mine is a McGowen 10" twist stainless 24".

If you have a Lothar Walther barrel with 14" twist, start at 81 grains of H4831SC and chronograph to desired velocity.

In my rifle, 88 grains is a favorite with the 400 grain Woodleigh RNSP and gets me only 2200 fps. That's my rifle. Yours may be faster.

You know this is absolutely the best trade-off for low pressure and good velocity, and near case filling load for best uniformity without fillers.

There is no recoil difference I can tell, and the slower burn rate in this big bore may even gentle it out some versus the faster RL-15.

70-something grains of RL-15 and maybe a filler needed

versus

80-something grains of H4831SC and no filler needed

I know which I prefer. H4831SC meters nicely too.

Mike Brady of North Fork had a "tight barrel" with .4226" groove diameter, and unspecified land diameter and width. Not on the loose side at all, I'll bet.

His max load of H4831SC was 90 grains which gave 2500 fps in a 26" barrel and 55,200 psi by his own pressure testing, using the 380 grain North Fork SP, a solid copper grooved shank with bonded lead nose core, a longer bullet than the Woodleigh 400 grainers, with ample shank bearing surface.

Saeed went up to 97 grains of H4831SC and got only 2487 fps in a 25.5" barrel with the 405 grain Walterhog (yes, long nose seating to 3.680" to help get the powder in despite a drop tube too, and a minimal bearing surface banded bullet that would offer less friction and lower pressures).

My barrel response to charge and bullet weight is very similar to Saeed's. I guess we are both loose.

Those with tight barrels should start at 81 grains of H4831SC and work up to desired velocity with the 400 grainers, or 380 grain North Forks.

PC,
Alf's pressure vs. charge plots show AR2209 (H4350) as the gentlest, but he did not show the AR2213SC (H4831SC) which would be of even gentler slope. Note CUP instead of PSI on the graphs.

You will get lowest pressures for velocity acheived with AR2213SC, and a near full case no doubt.

You might have a tight barrel, so start at 81 grains of AR2213SC and see how she does with a chronograph using 400 grain Woodleigh Weldcores, eh?

Actually in addition to Montana displayed in the link above I also have one based on a ruger M77 action that is currently being rebarrelled.

I'm having the caliber marking indicate the following ".423 Carmelo"

[Thanks RIP, this discussion is definitely counting out Varget for sure..............................down to choosing between 4831sc and 4350.

With so many more knowledgeable people posting, I may be over my head, but this may be of interest:

This is a topic near and dear to my interests. I recently read John “Pondoro†Taylor’s book, Big Game and Big Game Rifles. He hunted for 25 years (all year roud, as he pointed out) and was considered to be quite an authority on African Rifles.

Writing in 1945, about the 404 Jeffrey, and in comparison to the .416 Rigby, he wrote:

(404) I think one can safely say it is the most widely-used caliber throughout the big game hunting world; you can hardly pick up a gunsmith’s catalogue from any country, not merely Great Britain, without finding the .404 listed…If the rifle is sighted, as it can be sighted, so that the 400-grain bullet shoots accurately at all ranges, up to say, 150 yards, and the 300-grain bullet used for soft-skinned game at ranges between 150 and 300 yards, this new cartridge greatly increases the scope of the 404 for use in all parts of the world as an “all around rifle" for those who for any reason prefer a magazine to a double.

Firing the 400 grain bullet, the 404 has proved itself over and over again as being an eminently safe, sound and satisfactory weapon for all dangerous game from elephant downwards. The fact that all the highly efficient and exhaustively trained native hunters employed by the Governments of Uganda and Tanganykia for Elephant Control and Cultivation Protection are armed with 404s speaks, I think, for itself…..there cannot be the slightest doubt that the governments concerned could well afford to issue their men with more powerful rifles were such found to be necessary.

About the 416 Rigby:

For all around work amongst dangerous game, both thick skinned and thin-skinned, there is no better magazine rifle than Rigby’s 416.…..Owing to its higher velocity, its trajectory curve is somewhat flatter than the 404 when the latter is firing the standard 400 grain bullet, whilst it is definitely a more powerful weapon. With solid bullets on heavy animals such as elephant, rhino and buffalo this additional power is quite apparent but is not so apparent as when soft nosed bullets used on, say, lion, particularly when it is the case of stopping a charge: the 404 will stop him all right, but will seldom crumple him as completely as will the 416. (He goes on to write that the 416 is a more expensive rifle, ammo is more expensive, and therefore many choose the 404. Bear in mind this was the situation in 1945, but now I think the situation is reversed).

Pp 111-114, Taylor, Big Game and Big Game Rifles, Safari Press Inc., 1993.

In summary, he writes that the best overall rifle for a one rifle battery in a bolt rifle are either the 375 H&H or the 404 Jeffrey.

Taylor was the first person, as far as I know, to evaluate “knock out†values for various calibers. It is a complicated analysis, and set out in his book. He finds that the knock out value 404 is 48 and for the 416 Rigby, it is 57.

Chuck Hawks Rifle recoil table puts the recoil energy in foot pounds at 41 for the 404 (400 gr at 2170 and for the Rigby -58, 400 grains at 2400..

If I have not bored you to death, I will add that after reading Taylor’s book, I thought I would try loading some 300 grain bullets for the 404, and try them on smaller game, with the 400 grains for buff that I will hunt in March, effectively (if it works) making the 404 a one rifle battery. (I will bring my 375 as a second, back up rifle).

Live4thestlk: Great post! and right on the money I think. The reason for the 404's popularity over the 416 is EXACTLY as Taylor described it, economics. Today, with ammo and rifles in 416 readily more available, I see no reason 9other than nostalgia) to use a 404 insted of a 416. Sure you can ratchet the velocity, but pressure becomes a fator that defeats the purpose of BOTH calibers. Low pressure and safe and effcient extraction under difficult conditions. jorge

RIP,

Thanks for the information. I am a crimper for sure. Just a thought here maybe you can verify?

I am guessing that a Lee .416 Rem factory crimp die would work on the .404 case. Same length, or close enough to not matter, and only about .007 difference in the case diameter.

Thoughts?

live4thestalk,
Good plan. I chose the .375 H&H and .416 Rigby for Botswana, but would likely do differently now.

But how will you load your .404 Jeffery ammo? Like a gentleman or like a more efficient predator?

The modern .404 Jeffery chambered rifle can be loaded to the lauded KO values of the .416 Rigby that John Taylor knew, and even more since the caliber is .007" bigger , with no pressure problems at all.

Mr. Chadwick used the .404 Jeffery with 300 grain bullet to bag the greatest North American trophy ever, about 1936, and it still stands as the No.1 B&C Stone Sheep of all time.

Only a .423 caliber rifle can be an AFRICAN SHEEP RIFLE.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
RIP,

Thanks for the information. I am a crimper for sure. Just a thought here maybe you can verify?

I am guessing that a Lee .416 Rem factory crimp die would work on the .404 case. Same length, or close enough to not matter, and only about .007 difference in the case diameter.

Thoughts?

Seems I have heard of others doing that. If the body part of the die is oversize enough to get the .404 Jeffery into, I would sure give it a try.

I always grab those Lee Factory Crimpers when I see them, but haven't got a .416 Rem yet.

RIP,

I was just looking they've got them (.416 rem crimp dies) at,

www.midwayusa.com

Greg

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
RIP,

I was just looking they've got them (.416 rem crimp dies) at,

www.midwayusa.com

Greg

Surestrike,
Lee will make you .404 Jeff Crimp dies for about $40 bucks, you need to send then a seated bullet, takes about two weeks, I have two of them.

Surestrike,

As RIP says the 416 Rem Lee Factory Crimp Dies does work on a 404J. I know I've tried it!

Regards
JohnT