Should the PH or the client have final say on whether a legal animal should be shot or passed up?

I think the client, who is paying should make the decision after hearing the PH's recommendation.

What say you?

BH63

Who is pulling the trigger?

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Who is pulling the trigger?

Normally it would be the client, as he is paying the price.

Unless, of course, the client is an idiot, who cannot hit a barn door from the inside, then it would be the self glorifying so called professional hunter, shortly following him saying, "I let the buffalo choose how to die", with the accompanied B rated heavy breathing!

Seriously though, the client has the last word, once a shootable animal is found.

I have heard stories of clients refusing to shoot, because they wanted a bigger trophy, then ending going home empty handed, and complaining the have not shot anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Who is pulling the trigger?

Normally it would be the client, as he is paying the price.

Unless, of course, the client is an idiot, who cannot hit a barn door from the inside, then it would be the self glorifying so called professional hunter, shortly following him saying, "I let the buffalo choose how to die", with the accompanied B rated heavy breathing!

Seriously though, the client has the last word, once a shootable animal is found.

I have heard stories of clients refusing to shoot, because they wanted a bigger trophy, then ending going home empty handed, and complaining the have not shot anything.

Saeed,

I think the keyword is "shootable". A client may be perfectly happy to shoot a young buff with a 45" spread, but the PH might consider it best to let the bull mature and breed.

Should the client go ahead and kill the animal he\she wants?

BH63

quote:

I think the keyword is "shootable".
A client may be perfectly happy to shoot a young buff with a 45" spread, but the PH might consider it best to let the bull mature and breed.

Should the client go ahead and kill the animal he\she wants?

If one wants to be prim and proper and keep in line with conservation ethics, the PH's recommendation to give it a few more years would be the way to go.

In recent times however this policy has taken a turn as practically every client who goes to Africa has to return with his "Buffalo of a Lifetime" - the outfitters who assist in making this dream come true have also somewhat increased to keep the product marketable and besides, the taxidermists of today can do the perfect opposite of what plastic surgeons perform on an old hag.

I think part of the reason everyone wants to kill a "buffalo of a lifetime" is the skyrocketing costs, the political instability of Africa, and the increasing trend to condemn hunting in many developed countries.

It seems that many sportsmen might get just one chance to fulfill their desire to get a dream animal.

BH63

quote:

It seems that many sportsmen might get just one chance to fulfill their desire to get a dream animal.

And there you have your answer - conservation ethics be damned and rough nuts on the next generation.

There are 2 questions, and they should appear in this order.
The responsibility for the question: Is the animal legal to take? lies with the PH.
The responsibility for the question: Is the animal desirable to take? lies with the client.

The internet

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
The internet

Haha.

quote:

I have heard stories of clients refusing to shoot, because they wanted a bigger trophy, then ending going home empty handed, and complaining the have not shot anything.

I always recommend a shot if the animal is mature and has a good head. Especially when it comes to desirables such as Sable.

quote:

The internet

BINGO We have a winner.

Not Africa but here in Texas on the hunts I do, I only tell the client to let me make sure it is a "Legal" buck. In the two counties I hunt in, Archer and Young there is a 13 inch minimum inside spread between the main beams and I check for that.

Once I am able to determine the spread, if it is legal, I tell the client that it is their choice whether they want to shoot or not.

With feral hogs, I just tell the client to pick out whichever one they want and when the shot presents itself to go for it, it was [pretty much the same for Javelina when I was doing those hunts.

quote:

I think part of the reason everyone wants to kill a "buffalo of a lifetime" is the skyrocketing costs, the political instability of Africa, and the increasing trend to condemn hunting in many developed countries.

It seems that many sportsmen might get just one chance to fulfill their desire to get a dream animal.

That probably does play a role in many hunters minds.

quote:

And there you have your answer - conservation ethics be damned and rough nuts on the next generation.

The unknown, is WILL there still be hunting in Africa 10 years from now? How many of you that hunt or have hunted Africa believe that if sport hunting in Africa is shut down, all of the wildlife will become endangered or become extinct within a very few years after the closure?

Ive never seen this as a problem, but Ive shot some real trophies while a guide or PH is talking, and btw it never caused me and the PH a problem, all went instride and basically unnoticed, with pats on the back, the usual stuff...If I was guiding Saeed and a good buff showed up Id keep my mouth shut and my fingers in my ears!!

I think the PH and client should be in agreement. Makes the hunt much more enjoyable.

Happy Christmas and safe hunting!

Larry

quote:

Originally posted by SFRanger7GP:
I think the PH and client should be in agreement. Makes the hunt much more enjoyable.

Happy Christmas and safe hunting!

Larry

Agree!

I often tell the PH that when the shot is over, his picture and mine with the animal will be seen on the internet by 100,000 people, so make it a good decision.

I would never shoot anything that my PH didn’t give the go-ahead on...but once he does...I decide whether to or not. Many times I have passed.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

I think the keyword is "shootable".
A client may be perfectly happy to shoot a young buff with a 45" spread, but the PH might consider it best to let the bull mature and breed.

Should the client go ahead and kill the animal he\she wants?

If one wants to be prim and proper and keep in line with conservation ethics, the PH's recommendation to give it a few more years would be the way to go.

In recent times however this policy has taken a turn as practically every client who goes to Africa has to return with his "Buffalo of a Lifetime" - the outfitters who assist in making this dream come true have also somewhat increased to keep the product marketable and besides, the taxidermists of today can do the perfect opposite of what plastic surgeons perform on an old hag.

Every camp in Africa should keep a skull from a soft buffalo and show it to clients. Seeing all that bone should be enough to prevent anyone from shooting...as I have said before, my first buff was shot without looking at the front, long before I knew anything. The PH said "Your taxidermist can fix that." The fact its spread was only 30 inches made it even more depressing.

This is a good question to settle before you go hunting. The answer may vary a bit.... For instance a few years ago I was hunting for my Bighorn sheep in WY. At the beginning my guide had clearly stated we wanted a ram that was 8 yrs old or older. We had a lot of smoke from fires that made glassing difficult at times along with warm weather that kept the sheep in the timber a lot. On day 7 of a 10 day hunt we found a full curl ram that was probably 5-6 yrs old. Still had his lamb tips. We were in shooting range. My guide gave me the option. I said lets see if we can find a older ram. He packed up in a hurry before I changed my mind.... Got a 10 yr old ram on day 10.....
Last year I hunted in Zambia. The PH had told me before I got there that they had a young bull of close to 45 inches that was off limits. We saw the young bull almost every day that I was there. On day 3 I took a fine bull from a herd and they hoped that his place would be taken by the up and coming youngster that we had been seeing. The point is I was told ahead of time so there was no surprise. They also had mature animals of good quality that we would be likely to be able to get a shot at.
If you look in the hunt report section at Charlton McCallum's year end report. Pic #13 shows a buffalo that they passed on. Great spread. Hard to tell if the boss is completely solid. They left him to breed for now. I can see how a hunter could be a bit unhappy if that has not been discussed ahead of time. Communication is the key. Otherwise a hunter told not to shoot may be a bit angry and rightly so in my opinion.
Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I would never shoot anything that my PH didn’t give the go-ahead on...but once he does...I decide whether to or not. Many times I have passed.

Want to drive your PH crazy? Go on an 8 day plains game hunt and don't pull the trigger until day 5.

I always get the contract to state "any size buffalo\elephant,etc." but in reality I always let the PH have the last word, mainly out of respect.

Still there are a few animals I regret not shooting.

BH63

With the ability for the average Joe to get over there to hunt (with the help of the internet information easily accessible ).
This makes the average hunter more frugal with how they spend their $$$.
Imo, its the PHs job to guide to a suitably legal target but ultimately the hunter has to take responsibility for his decision

Not only legal game and size, age etc.
BUT: location where it's taking place.

Here in the states we read way too often about some a/h guide taking a hunter into the wrong area. Then both get their asses in jamb over it usually costing quite a few thousand bucks in fines to both.

George

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

The internet

BINGO We have a winner.

Not Africa but here in Texas on the hunts I do, I only tell the client to let me make sure it is a "Legal" buck. In the two counties I hunt in, Archer and Young there is a 13 inch minimum inside spread between the main beams and I check for that.

Once I am able to determine the spread, if it is legal, I tell the client that it is their choice whether they want to shoot or not.

With feral hogs, I just tell the client to pick out whichever one they want and when the shot presents itself to go for it, it was [pretty much the same for Javelina when I was doing those hunts.

quote:

I think part of the reason everyone wants to kill a "buffalo of a lifetime" is the skyrocketing costs, the political instability of Africa, and the increasing trend to condemn hunting in many developed countries.

It seems that many sportsmen might get just one chance to fulfill their desire to get a dream animal.

That probably does play a role in many hunters minds.

quote:

And there you have your answer - conservation ethics be damned and rough nuts on the next generation.

The unknown, is WILL there still be hunting in Africa 10 years from now? How many of you that hunt or have hunted Africa believe that if sport hunting in Africa is shut down, all of the wildlife will become endangered or become extinct within a very few years after the closure?

My take is that soon after shutting down all hunting in Africa the numbers of many species will drastically decline in the wild. The glory species like lion, buffalo and elephant will not go extinct, but they will only survive as "captive bred" animals, which is OK for "shooting" but not for hunting!

The PH should make the call of whether the animal is legal and is a “right one” to take. In Ethiopia where they have minimum sizes if an animal under size gets taken then double trophy fee to be paid. This is PHs baby. Lion must be 6+, leopard must be male and over certain age etc. these are all PHs call.

Client should make call on whether he is happy to take a shot which he is presented with.

The OP stated "legal" in the basic statement.

(although I have heard of instances where the client thought and paid for hunting a legal animal, but ether the PH had already filled his quota for that species of animal or was hunting in an area where the tag was not valid).

The question was based on the client wanting to shoot a legal animal, that the PH wanted to save for one reason or another.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

then it would be the self glorifying so called professional hunter, shortly following him saying, "I let the buffalo choose how to die", with the accompanied B rated heavy breathing!

I know whom you're talking about. He makes my skin crawl!! In one of his videos he lectures us about every little thing a hunter should have with him, but he forgot any mention of water

I think it is a combination and team effort. If a certain class is desired or a certain class is mandated by law. The professional has to be the one to say yes that one is old or big enough.

Then if the basic legal requirement (think sheep) has been established by the professional, it is the hunter's choice to take that animal.

When the professional says he is legal or meets a size requirement and then does not. The consequences are those of the professional. The only issue you run into is how do you determine which one screwed up later. As a i can see a situation where a pro may say do not shoot not legal/size and the hunter goiu gun hoe, and let the finger pointing begin.

That is why I did not shoot my fallow after finding him again (after my first shot) until Laudie got a look and said ok when I found him. Not that I did not trust Laudie, I did not want to shoot and be wrong. It almost cost us the buck. However, I would just got to hunt tomorrow.

You and the pro may not be real friends, but you are a team. Treat each other with respect, and the hunter be up from about what you want and how you want to do it before signing up.

It is certainly up to the PH to give the initial go ahead that it is a legal/appropriate animal to shoot.

Then it is at the discretion of the person squeezing the trigger.

I am a rookie at this African thing, and when I hunt with Andrew in June, if he tells me to shoot that Buffalo, or this Sable. I am certain that I will not argue with him.

But if Andrew has good internet access from his concession, we can always take pictures and get approval from AR before shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
It is certainly up to the PH to give the initial go ahead that it is a legal/appropriate animal to shoot.

Then it is at the discretion of the person squeezing the trigger.

I am a rookie at this African thing, and when I hunt with Andrew in June, if he tells me to shoot that Buffalo, or this Sable. I am certain that I will not argue with him.

But if Andrew has good internet access from his concession, we can always take pictures and get approval from AR before shooting.

You and I are going to get along like a grass fire on a windy day.

quote:

You and the pro may not be real friends, but you are a team. Treat each other with respect, and the hunter be up from about what you want and how you want to do it before signing up.

The best advise on this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
But if Andrew has good internet access from his concession, we can always take pictures and get approval from AR before shooting.

I hope you have booked a 50 day safari, because AR will still be disagreeing on day 50!

............Just listen to Andrew, and make your shot count. and don't tell anyone on AR about the hunt and risk getting taken to the wood shed for shooting one they think was too small!
...................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
It is certainly up to the PH to give the initial go ahead that it is a legal/appropriate animal to shoot.

Then it is at the discretion of the person squeezing the trigger.

I am a rookie at this African thing, and when I hunt with Andrew in June, if he tells me to shoot that Buffalo, or this Sable. I am certain that I will not argue with him.

But if Andrew has good internet access from his concession, we can always take pictures and get approval from AR before shooting.

You and I are going to get along like a grass fire on a windy day.

I think that scares me!

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
It is certainly up to the PH to give the initial go ahead that it is a legal/appropriate animal to shoot.

Then it is at the discretion of the person squeezing the trigger.

I am a rookie at this African thing, and when I hunt with Andrew in June, if he tells me to shoot that Buffalo, or this Sable. I am certain that I will not argue with him.

But if Andrew has good internet access from his concession, we can always take pictures and get approval from AR before shooting.

You and I are going to get along like a grass fire on a windy day.

I think that scares me!

Shoot this one and don't ask questions

Buff,

Personally I don't think there should be any question about whether or not a hunter should shoot when the PH is recommending to hold fire. You hired the guy for his expertise so let him do his job. A client and the PH initially should get on the same page about expectations and what is a realistic and use that as a trophy guideline for the safari.

Mark

I think the key here is to talk to the PH BEFORE the hunt starts. He knows the legalities, he needs to know your wishes and desires. If you want a hard bossed buff and don’t care about spread, his job is easier. A scrum cap bull is a great trophy to some but not to others. TELL HIM WHAT YOU WANT,

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
It is certainly up to the PH to give the initial go ahead that it is a legal/appropriate animal to shoot.

Then it is at the discretion of the person squeezing the trigger.

I am a rookie at this African thing, and when I hunt with Andrew in June, if he tells me to shoot that Buffalo, or this Sable. I am certain that I will not argue with him.

But if Andrew has good internet access from his concession, we can always take pictures and get approval from AR before shooting.

You and I are going to get along like a grass fire on a windy day.

I think that scares me!

Shoot this one and don't ask questions

Seems a little soft...

In the overwhelming majority of cases, no problem arises.

In the few that it does rear its ugly head, it is probably part of what turns out to be an awful safari.

I can relate many stories told to me about this, and in practically all of them, the fault lies with the client for the screw up.

And I think this is all due to total lack of basic knowledge of what an African safari is.

The client wants a 60 inch kudu.

He insists on shooting nothing smaller.

He is shown a number of bulls that are 56-58 according to the professional hunter.

Still refuses to shoot.

Goes home disappointed, and never stops complaining how he was taken for a ride.

Another one wants a 56 inch kudu.

Ends up shooting a 55 inch when the professional hunter said he thought it should go 56.

Client refuses to pay the trophy fee.

Client arrives in camp for a plains game hunt.

He has a custom made rifle in his favorite caliber. He has one box of ammo, as all he wants was shooting 5-6 animals.

Takes him several shots to get on target first morning.

Then wounds his first animal, and proceeds to finish his ammo trying to finish it off.

A client arrives in camp with a custom 416 Rigby. Rifle weighs 20 kilos! At least that is how it seemed to me when I picked it up!!

Client has one box of ammo. Never shot the rifle.

He wants to shoot a lion.

Lion hunting requires bait animals. He never took that into consideration.

Refused to shoot any large animals, because they are too expensive for him.

Agreed to shoot a kudu cow - it was legal in that country.

They find a herd of cows, and young bulls.

The PH points him to an old cow standing by itself.

Client fires, and a young bull standing a couple of yards away drops dead.

This is an example of the start of a bad safari, and going downhill from there.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
It is certainly up to the PH to give the initial go ahead that it is a legal/appropriate animal to shoot.

Then it is at the discretion of the person squeezing the trigger.

I am a rookie at this African thing, and when I hunt with Andrew in June, if he tells me to shoot that Buffalo, or this Sable. I am certain that I will not argue with him.

But if Andrew has good internet access from his concession, we can always take pictures and get approval from AR before shooting.

You and I are going to get along like a grass fire on a windy day.

I think that scares me!

Shoot this one and don't ask questions

hmmmm, YES!

Andrew, All you would hear after you told to me to shoot would be a click, boom.

Or maybe just a boom if I was already set up waiting for the go ahead.

Jeffive,
You will not be getting any requests for approval!

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
It is certainly up to the PH to give the initial go ahead that it is a legal/appropriate animal to shoot.

Then it is at the discretion of the person squeezing the trigger.

I am a rookie at this African thing, and when I hunt with Andrew in June, if he tells me to shoot that Buffalo, or this Sable. I am certain that I will not argue with him.

But if Andrew has good internet access from his concession, we can always take pictures and get approval from AR before shooting.

You and I are going to get along like a grass fire on a windy day.

I think that scares me!

Shoot this one and don't ask questions

hmmmm, YES!

Andrew, All you would hear after you told to me to shoot would be a click, boom.

Or maybe just a boom if I was already set up waiting for the go ahead.

Jeffive,
You will not be getting any requests for approval!

I'm just not sure the color of his left horn really matches the right...

Lord, what an animal.