I have had a mixed bag on references. I use them when I go but rarely get a bad one. That is because an agent supplied or an outfitter supplied reference will rarely be from someone that had a bad hunt.

I check references and seek to get a full list of clients for the past year and call each one. If the outfit checks out and is referred by someone with a little hunting experience, I consider it time not wasted.

The worst hunt I have been on was referred to me by a well known Weatherby Award winner. This hunter was Mr. Sheep and had nothing but glowing comments on a sheep outfitter in Canada. My hunting partner and I got totally ripped off. I had to threaten legal action and contacting the Yukon authorities about this outfit to get his attention. So, who can you trust???

I had one reference in the recent past from the agent and outfitter. I called the guy and he told me I would be a fool to book with that outfit or agent. He said they were both crooks...

So with that in mind - how do you handle references and contacting them?

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I have had a mixed bag on references. I use them when I go but rarely get a bad one. That is because an agent supplied or an outfitter supplied reference will rarely be from someone that had a bad hunt.

I check references and seek to get a full list of clients for the past year and call each one. If the outfit checks out and is referred by someone with a little hunting experience, I consider it time not wasted.

The worst hunt I have been on was referred to me by a well known Weatherby Award winner. This hunter was Mr. Sheep and had nothing but glowing comments on a sheep outfitter in Canada. My hunting partner and I got totally ripped off. I had to threaten legal action and contacting the Yukon authorities about this outfit to get his attention. So, who can you trust???

I had one reference in the recent past from the agent and outfitter. I called the guy and he told me I would be a fool to book with that outfit or agent. He said they were both crooks...

So with that in mind - how do you handle references and contacting them?

For me, the use of a reputable booking agent. I know I sound like a broken record but...

A booking agent, not just any booking agent. One that tends to be Client-centric rather then Outfitter-centric.

A Booking Agent tends to be a sort of clearing house of references. They have the collective data from numerous hunts for numerous outfits in numerous countries. It IS ALWAYS in their best interest to give you accurate data. If they mislead you, the chance of you using him again are slim.

The ONLY bad experience (in Africa) I've ever had was booking a hunt without my agent. It was a discounted hunt I found here. (Federico Gelinni)

dogcat,

I agree 100% with you. To me, outfitter supplied references are like magazine gun reviews...you never see a bad one.

This is why I love the hunt reports on AR. Many of them are coming from people with an honest and unbiased approach. When considering a new adventure, I start here or got the idea from a report I’ve read on this site. My recent GFH hunt in Ethiopia began with your report from Ethiopia a few years back.

Once I’ve got an idea about a trip, I independently search the forums regarding the outfitter, PH/guide, and concession to dig deeper. I always talk with outfitter supplied references but do a lot of homework here on AR which has been tremendously helpful.

I don’t use them at all. I think they are useless. If there is a bad one , my opinion is that we will never be told about it.

I either go with someone I know personally or rely on that booking agent .

yes of the 14 times I have been to Africa 13 have been good . The bad one who was a crook supplied me with 2 references one that gave him glowing references the other reference did not return my phone calls in my gut I knew something was amiss I wanted to go on that hunt so bad I let myself be conned. Moral of story get references but trust your gut.
got

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I don’t use them at all. I think they are useless. If there is a bad one , my opinion is that we will never be told about it.

I either go with someone I know personally or rely on that booking agent .

I have called references and never found them very helpful. They always seem to be good. I read hunt reports on AR or other forums and I have used booking agents. If the outfitter is available at a banquet I talk to them directly and usually go with my gut feeling. I find that after talking with someone for half an hour I can tell if someone is going to provide the hunting experience I am after.

So far I have never had what I would call a "bad" hunt. Some had a few surprises but I just go with the flow.

I check references for every single hunt. I ask for people who were not successful. I have avoided some trips because of reference info. I would guess I talk to 6-10 people before booking a hunt. I have talked to some hunters who were successful but won’t do the hunt again for a variety of reasons. I realize the outfitter can cherry pick the references but I still call them. I want the info the outfitter does not supply such as what the hunter really thinks of the camp, food, guides, vehicles, etc.

References are only relevant when you are getting them from people you know, and trust.

The only references I‘ve checked were those for Buzz and Myles at CMS...but I went with them anyway .

Have to agree with Saeed here. I take my references from the PH's and outfitters I've hunted with before. When I want something or want to hunt in a country they can't provide. They won't give me a bum steer because I've hunted with them for years and will continue to do so.

Too bad wives couldn't be so understanding.

quote:

References are only relevant when you are getting them from people you know, and trust.

This! Booking Agents won't stay in business by screwing too many people, but the conflict of interest inherent with preserving their long term relationship with the outfitters doesn't always bode well for the client. They don't generate revenue discouraging clients from booking. Not to mention that often the hunting or fishing outfitter/guide resents having to pay the booking agent and maybe takes it out on the client. Not often, in my experience, but I've it heard it mentioned enough to be concerned about it.
When possible, the best recommendation is from someone I know and trust who has been a former client, or another industry professional who I have a relationship with and who wouldn't want to lose me as a client by sending me to the proverbial "gar hole". When I've called guide supplied references who are strangers, they have been universally positive. Not much value in that.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
References are only relevant when you are getting them from people you know, and trust.

True Saeed but your hunt Report forum is a valuable reference as well.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
References are only relevant when you are getting them from people you know, and trust.

True Saeed but your hunt Report forum is a valuable reference as well.

100%

If there is an option to meet an outfitter face to face (back in the olden days when the shows happened) that is your best option in my opinion. When my wife and I went to Zimbabwe a couple years ago we both went to SCI with a short list of people to meet with and eventually book a hunt. Out of 6 or 7 safari operators she liked 2. We ended up booking with a safari operator my uncle had hunted with in the 90's. He was also the only one that didn't try and sell me a hunt and asked what I was looking for and would try and tailor something to what we were looking for.

We had an incredible time.

ryry4 and Saeed, Good advice.

ryry4, You must be from around Edmonton. In about 1967 I worked on a crew that plowed in underground telephone cable in those wonderful Ukrainian communities north and east of Edmonton. brian

References are always suspect when sent by an outfitter I haven't met, seriously, is the guy going to give you a name of a client who had a bum hunt. Also, outfits change over time or other people may have different expectations of their PH and hunting area. For example, I have hunted with Martin Pieters three times and always had good, enjoyable hunts. I was successful on most, taking my largest elephant and buff with him at the time in the Omay. I was not successful on my last safari with him for lion. Still, MP did all he could on that hunt, we saw lion but no mature males. In the end luck plays some part in a hunt.

Some here have had awful safaris with Martin, what would my reference be? I had great experiences and would comment so... misleading? Not from my perspective.

Booking agents are great but I have had bum recommendations from them, especially in North America. I try and do research on outfitters and if possible meet them face to face at SCI or DSC and get a feel for the person. In the end, sometimes things just go bad... sometimes you get ripped off. If you hunt a lot, it will happen. I try to book with agents I know and outfits I have heard good things about. It's worked fairly well for me...

.


I'll echo some of the above. References posted by outfitters and PH's always read sweet. As an acid test AR is a great reference for those looking to book first time !!


.

Ask for a list of clients that live in your area. Odds are you will know some of them, or you will have friends that will know some on the list. I would not rely on a referral from someone unless I had trust in the person giving the referral.

I never thought references provide by the Outfitter would be of use. I simply expect them to provide only the good reviews.

It is interesting what internet searches bring up these days. I also like to do a name check.

Some times you will find good and then some are fair and finally a few poor reviews.

I have booked through an agent, plus direct with a PH. Both have worked out.

Using an agent, I have found you never interact with the PH prior to landing. And a drive to the camp late at night is something I no longer will do. So a good lesson learned.

Learned that I need to book my own flight through a good travel agent, I have used Gracy Travel and have been well satisfied. The one time I let the booking agent do my flights, I was in the middle row back by the lavatories. Lesson learned

I try to find hunters that have taken a hunt and send them a PM to see if we can visit and provide my cell phone and time for them to call or if they feel comfortable they can give me there phone number and I will call them.

Reading hunting reports, there are too many individuals that are sue happy these days and may be taken to court when you provide a poor review. So it is not worth the time or trouble to put out a review. And I do believe that is one reason you only see good to wonderful hunting reports.

A person, even on AR will be taken to task for posting a hunting report. Even though the hunter experienced a good time and put out a good report.

If you have to take a recommendation from the outfitter, ask him for an experienced hunter who didn't take his target animal. You'll get the straight poop. It could be a very good recommendation and if it was, I'd trust it more than coming from the average stranger.

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:
The only references I‘ve checked were those for Buzz and Myles at CMS...but I went with them anyway .

quote:

Originally posted by ryry4:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
References are only relevant when you are getting them from people you know, and trust.

True Saeed but your hunt Report forum is a valuable reference as well.

100%

If there is an option to meet an outfitter face to face (back in the olden days when the shows happened) that is your best option in my opinion. When my wife and I went to Zimbabwe a couple years ago we both went to SCI with a short list of people to meet with and eventually book a hunt. Out of 6 or 7 safari operators she liked 2. We ended up booking with a safari operator my uncle had hunted with in the 90's. He was also the only one that didn't try and sell me a hunt and asked what I was looking for and would try and tailor something to what we were looking for.

We had an incredible time.

I think the shows are valuable for that. If you live near one, and you can book there you might save quite a bit. Plus you can look the guy in the eye and see if he is worth dealing with.

There was a farm from Namibia I don't remember the name of. The wife was mid'50's and her grown son and husband were in the booth with her. I felt like between the 3 of them I was with family.

I met Dempsey Bayly and Michael Sippel at a show in 2019. Man we had a good time in the booth. I think if you can have a good time in the booth, it might be an indication of what a hunt will go like.

Every other guided hunt I have ever been on I never met the team until I got to the location. Results varied.

I have enjoyed talking to references because, yes, it probably will be positive. Still, you may gain better insight into how the hunt is conducted and daily routine, and that can be exciting.

On another note, a reference did make a difference. The reference said that they were hunting Impala, and the PH said that was at least a 25” Impala. The client shot it, and it wasn’t a 25” Impala, so the PH told him that was the PH’s mistake, and the client did not have to pay for it.-got to keep it, though.

I checked references a long time ago on an Elk hunt through a broker (I don’t remember the name). The references were positive, and when I got to camp, they were all there because those references were his guides. It was a good hunt though – unsuccessful but enjoyed the hunt.

I have received valuable feedback when I post on Accurate Reloading if anybody hunted with XXXX

I also believe that a PH on Accurate Reloading is not going to ruin their reputation by shoddy service or misleading information.

I wish I had more funds because there seem to be some excellent PHs on this site.

Conversely, I've been contacted AS a reference quite a few times. I don't think one has ever booked?

That's not because I gave a bad or marginal reference. I think it was just tire kickers.

There's only one Safari I've ever done that I would not give a great reference to.

This is an interesting subject. I'm very seldom ever asked for references. I sent a prospective client 6 references this week on Muchinga Adventures in Zambia and I don't remember when I had the last request for references before that.

Mark

If I need a reference on someone this is the only place, and the only people, that I would ever ask.

This is a slippery slope at best, I would tend to go with a gut feeling, references can be true or false pretty easy not only in writing but on the internet as well...A booking agent survives on client returns, find a good one and stick with him is my advise, and based on experience..You think PHs are different, you should deal with hunter clients for 40 plus years whew!! Now that would make hell of a book.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
References are only relevant when you are getting them from people you know, and trust.

True Saeed but your hunt Report forum is a valuable reference as well.

+2

To me, these are the only two that count.

Depends on what you consider references.

To me, a booking agent is a reference with some skin in the game.

If they think you are likely to be a repeat client, they don’t want you upset...

Hunt reports are references as well - purely unsolicited references.

Friends and family can be good references... I’d have likely never started on the African journey without Butchloc showing me it was easily possible.

The weakest reference is one provided by the outfitter themself. Not useless/poor, but require more caution.

Competitors in the business saying someone is good, conversely is about as strong as it gets.

So, yes I rely on references, but not the sense that I think it was meant by the original question.

It depends on who and how you find them but any information you can gather doesn’t hurt. I have found that on a forum like this you may find out something you may have not elsewhere.

I almost always check references. While it is obvious the reference will be at least generally positive, you can learn a lot talking to them.

Once I heard a glowing report on an RSA PH who drove around all day and "let" the client shoot all his animals from the cruiser. The client was thrilled he wasn't expected to walk or break a sweat.

Another said his PH brought his 10 year old son along to "help", and he thought it great that it was a "family" outfit.

What may be fantastic for some, may definitely NOT be the hunt I am looking to book. Ask about daily routine, hunting style, and accommodations. If the client can't describe these to your satisfaction, beware.

And yes, meeting with the PH in person at a show or locally is still important, just not always possible.

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by llamapacker:
I almost always check references. While it is obvious the reference will be at least generally positive, you can learn a lot talking to them.

Once I heard a glowing report on an RSA PH who drove around all day and "let" the client shoot all his animals from the cruiser. The client was thrilled he wasn't expected to walk or break a sweat.

Another said his PH brought his 10 year old son along to "help", and he thought it great that it was a "family" outfit.

What may be fantastic for some, may definitely NOT be the hunt I am looking to book. Ask about daily routine, hunting style, and accommodations. If the client can't describe these to your satisfaction, beware.

And yes, meeting with the PH in person at a show or locally is still important, just not always possible.

Bill

Do you give them your references?