How's the 375 Ultra going with the African Hunters?

There now seems to be some activity with the 375 Ultra on Big Bores forum but is Saeed the only African hunter who has chosen the 375 Ultra or 375/404.

Mike

Well I plan on taking my 375 RUM to Zimbabwe for Buffalo hunting this spring. I have quite a few rifles but my two favorite are the .45-70 & the .375 RUM, both are very versatile for their intended purpose, I'm speaking from a handloaders view to be able to make this possible......Bob

I believe Jon Sundra was the first guy to use the first 375 Ultra in Africa. I know Craig Boddington also used it. Flatter trajectory and more oomph on the other end, what more could you ask for except maybe a bigger caliber?

Will it work, yes..but I think there is to much velocity...IMO Everywhere you read a slow bullet starting out near 2400fps at muzzle and at 100 going 2200 or so so the big bullet will grind down the big animal and retain all energy...



Mike

I agree with retreever, the 375 rum,ultra,zipper-flipper, and blown out, muzzle blasters, will do absolutely nothing better than the old 1912 375 H&H! That is, except, burn more powder to get less effect on the live Buffalo, and create more recoil, and noise.

I have never understood why folks always want to fix things that are not broken! There are many cartridges out there that need fixing, but the 375 H&H is not one of them! A full 90% of shots taken in Africa are within 150 yds, and I've have never had a shot at over 200 yds there,so I don't see the need for a round that is 2" flatter at 300 yds. The velocity increase, is of no use, at all, on dangerous game, in fact, it is a draw back. Dangerous game is not dangerous past 50 yds, so why bother with bullet destroying velocity at 50 yds, when 2450 fps, at muzzle,with a 300 gr bullet, is all that is needed. The old H&H does that without all the draw backs!

All, only "MY" take on the subject, and not binding on anyone who wants to pay the cost in recoil, and noise for no valuable gain in performance any place except on paper!

Mac,

416 Rigby has 300 f.s more velocity potential than the 416 Remington and the Rigby is also rimless. The 416 Rigby does the 2400 with far less pressure than the 416 Remington.

375 Ultra has 300 f.s more velocity potential than the 375 H&H and the 375 Ultra is also rimless. The 375 Ultra does the 2400 with far less pressure than the 375 H&H.

But the 416 Rigby is heaped with praise and the 375 Ultra is almost like a leper

Mike

Mac,

What you have said is of course absolutely correct. Anything the 375 RUM or our own 375/404 will do can be done with the old 375 H&H. Except in trajectory.

I have tried several different loads, varying in velocity from around 2600 to over 3100 with a 300 grain Barnes X bullet.

In penetration, the 3100 plus load did not penetrate as deep as the slower ones.

I have also found that a load of around 2700 - 2750 will penetrate a cape buffalo lengthways.

This is the load I have settled on for my hunting. I have used it for everything, and it does come in handy for the few times where a longer shot have to be taken.

I have shot a few buffalo at between 250 and 300 yards. The longest shot I have made with this rifle and load is at an impala, which was measure at about 425 yards.

All these animals would have died just as dead if they were hit with the 375 H&H. But I think the increased velocity made it easier to hit them.

For those who might wonder, the 3140 fps with a 300 grain Barnes X bullet was from a 375/416 Rigby. The 300 RUM or our 375/404 is not capable of this osrt of velocity with this bullet.

If I was not in a position to build my own rifle, and reload, I would have picked the 375 H&H, no question about it.

Saeed,

If you were a reloader but not a rifle maker would you pick 375 Ultra or 375 H&H.

Mike

In fairness to both sides, I see two niches for this round that are defendable. One, of rather dubious value, is the duplication of a desired velocity, with given bullet, at lower working pressures. The other, similarly to the .378, is the carrying of extra heavy payloads to great distance, ostensibly for long range work on heavy plainsgame. This makes sense to me but only for a select few. Doing fine work at long range with such cartridges requires much practice and the right man.

Mike,

I think I would pick the 375 RUM.

Mike375,

I would pick the 375 the big reason is the availabitity of ammo from almost anyone..You will find ammo and any ammo is better then no ammo..Had an experience in AFrica luggage bag with clothes and ammo was lost by SAA leaving immediatley for safari and the bush...Had to get a special permission from the minister of homeland security or whatever and ended up buying a box of Federal safari ammmo in 300gr Noslers..They worked and I did get my ammo and clothes 3 days later in the bush...

Mike

Nick,

From your posting:

One, of rather dubious value, is the duplication of a desired velocity, with given bullet, at lower working pressures.

I think you just described the 416 Rigby

Mike

retreever

Agree with what you are saying but is it true that the same argument says a 458 or 375 H&H should be picked over the 416 Rigby?

Mike

Mike,

The problem the RUM has is that it is going heads up against the sentimental favorite, a no win situation at best. Your comparisons with the 416 cartridges and the velocity vs pressure factors is spot on and very valid. For some reason all that is lost upon everyone who champion the H&H and call all the others unnecessary or too much of a good thing or...whatever.

I think the RUM is a nicely balanced cartridge and one that offers quite a lot to a traveling hunter. With it, he can load the 350gr Woodleighs to an easy 2500fps and make a great dangerous game round, probably the equal of the 416Rem, and/or load up lighter weight bullets to make it the equal of a 300mag for the long shots one can routinely get if they hunt in Tanzania/Masailand or several other locales. If premium 300gr bullets are used I doubt there will be any close range bullet blow ups, and long range potential is still very good.

There are several factors at play here:

1. Perhaps most importantly, there is a strong bias among big game and DG hunters for the 375 H&H. This is similar to a brand name and VERY hard to compete with. It is a combination of mistuque, nostalgia, trust and credibility. I agree that the 375 H&H has earned this loyalty and respect.

2. Remington does not make a CRF rifle, nor is there a CRF alternative available yet to BG and DG hunters.

3. The 375 H&H is one of the least efficient cartridges ever developed. A 375 bore with an 86 gr case capacity should develop 4950 FPE at safe pressures in a bolt gun. The 375 H&H standard energy of 4350 FPE should take only 69.2 grains of water capacity to achieve in a chambering of average efficiency.

4. The RUM delivers 300 fps more velocity, 26 percent more energy AND 40 % more recoil than the H&H.

So, there you have the plain strengths and weaknesses of the 375 RUM when competing with the 375 H&H. Saeed is quite right about the trajectory being the most tangible advantage, since the RUM velocities and energies are actually excessive in close. This has also been said of the 378 Weatherby. So, for now, if factory ammo is important to the buyer, and CRF is too, the H&H will get the nod even without the nostalgia/bias thing. For a dediacted handloader who does not give a fig for factory ammo, it is the most flexible and rewarding round I have worked with in 40 years.

Remington would be very wise to offer low reduced recoil H&H duplication loads to take this flexibility into the market.

The missing component of the competition is that the 375 RUM thrives on 350 gr Woodleighs and would not even blink at 375 grainers if anyone made them. This gives full power RUM loads at 2600 fps in soft nose configuration that put it in the 416 REM and Rigby category.

The 375 Weatherby tried to vanquish the old H&H and it also failed even though it is a fantastic cartridge. I think all of the aforementioned reasons as to the RUM's lack of popularity are valid, not the least of which is the rifle it's offered in. That in and of itself, would preclude me from buying one. I am not "bad-mouthing" remingtons, I just don't like them. jorge

jorge-
Now, you know why the 375Wby failed..it's a WEATHERBY! Jeezus man, no safari hunter with any sense of tradition and class would be caught dead with a bordello looking rifle like that!

Sabot, Make note that Saeeds post was made mere seconds prior to my own and is essentially saying the same thing. IMO, there is no "competition" here. Two different animals. What the bigger case offers over the H&H, it takes away, from all but a few rifleman, in the form of increased recoil. An oft forgotten goal in the design of the .375 H&H is enhanced feeding and extraction, something that may come into play far more often than does a slightly flatter trajectory. I've used them all and can appreciate them all. Pick what you like.

John,

No point mucking about...one of these babies in 378 is the answer..Mike

http://www.weatherby.com/custom_shop/HGI/images/Custom_Large/custom_crown.jpg

To all above...
What would the 375 rum be if a 404 bullet was put on the end ???
Velocity, energy, and penetration???


Mike

Mike375,

Ones tolerance to recoil is also important here...IMO
But the never ending story of which cartridge and which rifle one must choose...Personal preference all the way...I am a firm believer in accuracy and not just having a big boomer because I am going to hunt dangerous game...

Mike

C'mon now guys, if a pre-64 M-70 was available in a .416 rigby, a .404 Jeffery and a rimless version of the .470 Nitro, it's all anyone would want for DG.

The simple fact is that we're all a bunch of traditionalists. Just look at the increases in double rifle sales...

Me?...I'm still trying to talk myself into turning that 1917 Enfield into a .404 Jeffery. Why???...because it's about living up to the image...it's why we buy cowboy boots when we move to Wyoming!!

It would be a 404RUM. If you look at 416 Dakota spec's I would say it would match up with them almost identically.

a 416 dakota, is what
jeffe

Vapodog-

Saying we are all a bunch of tradionalists isn't anywhere near an accurate description of many here, me included. I hunt with fiberglass stocked rifles by choice, because they are the most rugged and least likely to change zero. I use several Weatherby and other new cartridges in preference to "traditional" ones, I use scopes that change power and in some cases have big objective lenses to gather more light, and the list goes on. I don't like iron sights, straight tubed scopes, double rifles or anything else that limits my chances to collect the game I spend way too much time and money to hunt. I hunt ethically, enjoy walking and love tent camps in East Africa, appreciate fine walnut and love scotch, so I guess I am somewhat of a tradionalist. However, I am there to hunt and kill game, taking it as it comes, and not live up to some "image" or limit my opportunities because of my choices in equipment.

If others prefer a walk down memory lane with Stewart Granger or sneaking within 30yds I'm all for them because it's all about fun and sport anyway. Using the classic calibers and/or rifles is fine too, if that's what someone prefers to use.But there's more than one way to do it.

Eegadd! Nearly blinded me when I opened that link showing the Mark V. Thanks, Mike!



This is just hobby talk for gun cranks.



All the advantages weigh heaviest on the side of the 375 Weatherby.



In a 24" barrel, the average 375 Weatherby easily delivers:

300 grainers at 2700 to 2750 fps.

350 grainers at 2500 to 2550 fps.

Or slower, if you like, and at lower pressure than the 375 H&H.



As evidence, if you will take my word for it, check this hasty collection of load data with just 4 different powders:



http://www.accuratereloading.com/375wby.html



Also if you want slower, the easy way, just load some of the ubiquitous 375 H&H 300 grainers that deliver the usual 2500 fps in the 375 H&H chamber. The 375 Weatherby chamber will slow them down to 2400 fps.



Also, give the 375 Wby a 3.8" magazine (common as dirt on the CZ 550 magnum action) and you can add on the 10 grain water case capacity that the 3.6" magazined 375 RUM has over the 375 Wby. Equal the 375 RUM hyperbole with the 375 Wby, yet fire off the shelf 375 H&H 300 grainers at 2400 fps. In a word, versatile.



If you have any hope of finding any ammo out there, in a pinch, it will likely work very well in a 375 Weatherby.



Yes, the 375 H&H is just fine as an all around rifle. But the 416, 458, 470, or a big fifty are good for more specialized accuracy work, or just chest thumping. Sort of like the sound of a Harley. You name the sports car of preference when you pick a 375.

Ron,

No doubt that the 375 Wby is the ultimate survival 375 bore. Not a big deal but in addition it is much easier to convert 416 Rems, 300 Wbys and any other full length Improved H&H cases to 375 Wby case.

For me though it is 378. If I had the dollars I would have ordered one like the picture but instead have ordered a lesser pair of 378s for about the same cost as one of those in the picture. I am thinking of trying some black powder to see if I can reach original 375 H&H ballistics. They should should arrive in Australia around May/June. In addition an upgraded 30/378 has been included in the order. I think this combo will guarantee that I can't join The Australian Big Game Rifle Club

Actually, I wonder what would cause more hives to break out among the double malt set...A full bordello Wby in 378 or a Holland and Holland chambered in 375 Wby

Mike

Mike,

You are in unusually fine form at the moment! ROTFLMAO

I doubt that you would break out in hives at the sight of my 378 Wby CZ 550 Magnum in an Armtec fiberglass stock, but I fear you might spew.



I will certainly rebarrel my Mark V 30-378 to 378 Wby when I burn out the barrel, however. And I will hope to get the straight stack extra capacity magazine (3 down! 1 up, total of 4!). Yep, that may be the best system bar none, Mausers beware! That may deserve an Acrabond laminate in anything but Kalifornia style.



And if the 340 Wby Mk V Fibermark from 1985 ever gets rebarreled, it will have to be with a fluted stainless No.5 contour in 375 Wby, 26". No sights on the barrel, no lugs on the barrel, no bands on the barrel. Bet you wouldn't spew over that.



My only other Mark V is the Ultralight in 270 Winchester, weighs about 5.75 pounds without the scope. Does that make you queasy? I am sure it would be innocuous to the H&H crowd, who wouldn't give a rip, unless it were just some of their coincidental flatus.

Ron,

I would like to relate a little story to you that proves you often have to see and feel the rifle before you know.

Several years ago (while still Made in Japan)Wby made a limited run of 375 H&Hs that looked as if they had come from the H&H brochures except of course for the Made in Japan Mark V barreled action. Quarter ribs, the whole deal..a true double malter's delight, except of course for the Made in Japan Mark V.

Our biggest gun shop had one in stock and one day a bloke I knew very well that worked there phoned me up and asked "what sort of person do you think would buy that Wby". My answer was "a fully certified fuckwit". However, you would not believe it but the buyer was a mate of mine!!!

But I have to tell it is one of the most desirable 375 H&Hs you well ever see or handle and the Made in Japan Mark V just seems to add some sting to it. They were a Wby Custom Shop rifle.

Mike

I am a certified plebeian. Mike mine Wild Turkey if you are buying.



Edit: (hiccup) Lemme try that again.



Mike, make mine Wild Turkey if you are buying.

Ron,

You will have to buy yourself as I have run out of money helping to prop up the US economy.

Have you seen one of the Wby drop magazines for the 378 based calibres. I have not seen one.

It is a shame that that they do not offer vertical stack in the 458 Lott because as you know staggered feed and 458 Lott type cartridges loaded with with very blunt bullets and lots of lead exposed are not the ideal setup for reliable feeding.

Mike

I reckon the African hunters should look at using the bigger .375 cases, ultra etc. for driving a heavier bullet such as the 350 gr woodleigh. I reckon that would be one of there best uses, driving a heavier 350gr .375 bullet at the same speeds the "legend" .375 H&H drives the 300gr.

Make a great long range grassy whopper with 235 gr speers however

IMO, with 350 grain .375 bullets and 450 grain .416 bullets, one has reached the point of diminishing returns, as the 300 & 400 grainers already provide superb penetration. If one is hoping to see increased reaction to the shot, one would do better to move up in caliber. .45 caliber bullets will at least get you into the suburbs of "swat city", on buffalo.

May God preserve us from Americans who think that faster is better!!!!! A .378 Weatherby works much better when you pull the bullets, tip 10 grns of powder out and get it back to .375 H&H velocities.

Penetration with a .375 H&H on buff and elephant improves with both barnes super solids and Woodleighs if you load it to 2450 fps.

Thank goodness I have not seen one of these abominations out here!!!

Eegadd! Ganyana, I guess Saeed is not too misguided with his 375/404 then, not quite as bad as a 378 Wby, eh?



It seems he has had superb performance with 300 grainers at 2700 to 2750 fps, and can hit impala at over 400 yards with the same bullet.



There are merits to both sides, conventional round nose solids at 2400 fps (fmj or mono) or FN mono solids at higher velocity, and softs at high speed for long range work.



The 375 Weatherby will do it all.



I especially like the fact that the 375 Weatherby chamber will tame the outrageously hot loaded 375 H&H (300 grain ammo at 2550 fps) down to a 2450 fps low pressure load, in a pinch, whether the pinch was caused by a buffalo or a baggage handler.



Nickudu,

A 300 grain .375 just crosses the 0.3 line, so it is nice to have a 0.35 SD bullet like the Woodleigh soft and solid. 2500 fps in a 22" barrel, 2550 fps in a 24" barrel, 2600 fps in a 26" barrel with the 375 Wby.



The 375 Wby does with 350 grainers what the 375 H&H does with 300 grainers, as PC said in general about the 375's on steroids.



As for the .416, a 400 grainer is already over 0.33 SD, well past the 0.3 line, and I agree, not much can be gained by going any higher.



Mike,

I have only seen the Weatherby custom shop advertizing of the extended vertical stack mag. How dare you question the feeding of a soft nosed 458 Lott in a Mauser staggered box!!!

It's arguable, but perhaps breast implants have been an improvement? Isn't this post all about bigger is better?