Nick,

I don't think RAB is saying that you get a 375 Wby or Ultra with the view in mind of setting it up around the 350 grain bullet but rather those calibres allow the use of the 350 grain bullet while retaining the speed of the 300 grain 375 H&H.

Mike

Wouldn't be the first time I've lost track of a thread.



RIP can often be harder to follow that a midget in a junkyard!

Nick-
I think you may have lingered a bit to long in "swat city" .

That swat I was just thinking, John!



BTW - Where is Allen? I need his big buffalo pic.

Nickudu,
I am as hard to follow as a "midget in a junkyard" ... Sir, I resemble that remark!

Mike attests to the gentleness of .375 rifles on his noggin by getting the point exactly.

I would prefer to stick to 300 grain bullets for everything, but if one must swat noggins (buffalo or your own), a 350 grain woodleigh soft that expands to maybe .75 caliber will make big holes and still go deep when it moves as fast as the 300 grainers from a 375 H&H. Get it?

Nick-
He's in Mexico hunting deer at the present time but should be home soon.

And furthermore, let the record show, that I would prefer the 300 grain FN type monometal solid in .375 to any heavier .375 solid, as less likely to bend, and more likely to stay stable with a 1 in 12" twist. But I do think the 350 grain Woodleigh Weldcore expander makes sense in a 375 Wby or RUM, but I could get by without them.

A 300 "X" bullet will outpenetrate any Woodliegh softpoint, at any velocity. You're saying the higher velocity of the .375 Weatherby will give greater penetration?

No Nick, you still don't get it? You are begging the question or trying to put words in my mouth. What are you accusing me of besides being a midget and dodging around the junkyard? Your logic is getting tougher to follow than a midget in a junkyard, as you say.

The Woodleigh Weldcore 350 grainer will expand to larger size yet still carry considerable weight behind it to keep it moving. It will likely not waste its energy on the off-side landscape, but possibly stay in the animal in situations where the Barnes X would whistle on through. Ray Atkinson has talked about this many times, and says he facilitated the introduction of the 350 grainers from Woodleigh.

The 350 grain Barnes Original is shorter in length than the 300 grain Barnes X. I know they both can be stable at 375 H&H velocities, and higher, with the common 12" twist.

Come to think of it, the 350 grain Woodleigh FMJ solids might be shorter than the .375/300 X bullet too, as I expect the Woodleigh Weldcore is.

I have not used the 350 grain Woodleigh Weldcores, but you might goad me into it. I would love to try them both now that you made me think a bit about it. Make bigger bore holes with a .375. Will have to check the recommended velocities by Woodleigh. Surely the 350 grainers can handle 2500 to 2600 fps without turning inside-out.

Is this a hoot or what?

Gentlemen,

I have given up on what works and does not as far as theories go.

I found animals lacking in their knowledge of how certain bullets at certain velocities are supposed to be deadlier than others.

Some of you might remember a couple of years ago, when we went on a plains game hunt to South Africa. I thought I would try some of the bullets which were not supposed to be used for hunting. And I pushed them quite hard - close to 3500 fps with 180 grain bullets.

The bullets in question were Sierra's Match Kings. And they worked just as well as any other normal hunting bullets.

Would I use them for hunting by choice?

Not if I can help it. But, if I had to schoose between them and what is called normal soft points, I will probably pick the Match Kings.

I just use what has worked for me, in the type of hunting I do.

In an ideal world, I would love to take a dozen different rifles, with combinations of bullets and loads, and try them on different animals. Sadly, those days are no longer with us.

So I try to make life easier for myself, and use one rifle, one load, and shoot everything with it, and so far I have no reason to regret that decision.

The 350 grain Woodleigh Protected Point Weldcore .375/350 grainer is recommended for velocities up to 2500 fps at impact. Ought to be just smashing in a 375 Wby, 375 RUM, or 375/404 Saeed.

I thank Saeed for warping my sensibilities from 416's to 375's.

Ron,

I think calibre/power/velocity etc is more applicable to smaller animals and for two reasons.

Firstly, a lot more smaller animals will be shot and as such any differences in performance are more likely to be apparent. A good example of this would be comparing the 243 and 270 on chest shot kangaroo, particularly low chest shots. If someone has only shot a few roos then the 243 might have proved to be as good or better..depending on bullets and luck of the draw etc. But change that number of animals killed into 100s or 1000s and spread it over many years so as to pick up variation in components then one learns that the 270 is vastly superior to the 243. In fact one learns that the 270 appears to cross a threshold and that the 243 when taken over the long distance of big numbers and many years is really very similar to the 222. One also learns that on this size animal as well as the pig that no real grain ocurs by moving to 300 Magnum. But there are still plenty of times when a 243 will dump a big male roo or pig much quicker than a 300 Mag.

Secondly, the big animals are just too big for our various calibres. I think trying to discuss the pros and cons of a 375 and 416 on buffalo is probably like comparing the 223 and 6 X 47 on pigs or roos. Of course just as the 270 (and perhaps 6.5mm but I have no experience there) appears to cross a threshold with the large male roo and pig I guess there must be some threhold that applies to the bigger animals.

An interesting with different calibres is that one calibre will draw the user to certain types of bullets and another calibre will draw the user to another type of bullet. For example it is quite common in Australia for someone to try their new 375 BRNO/CZ out on roos and pigs and come away impressed. However, this does not happen nearly so much with the 338. The reason is simple and it is because the 375 user is far more likely to stick round nose Hornadies in his gun and the 338 user is more likely to go for spitzers.

Mike

Thanks, John!

Very high sectional density bullets that expand well at impact velocities are exceptionally lethal. It is simply the largest wound channel one can generate in any given caliber at normal impact velocities.

If you drive a 350 gr 375 woodleigh fast enough to make it expand well, it will dispatch DG with more authority than a 300 gr bullet of similar construction at the same velocity.

Sabot,
Following your logic is as easy as tracking a big man in cleats across a dewy putting green at sunrise. Makes sense to me.

The 375 Wby, and no doubt the 375 RUM, really shine with 300 to 350 grain bullets, according to my loading and testing.

I have just finished with all I need to know about loading the 375 Wby, both in a 3.6" magazine and in a 3.75" COL for a 3.8" magazine. I will have a CZ 550 with 25" barrel and 3.8" box chambered as 375 Wby, to go with the two 375 Wby's I have with 24" barrels and 3.6" boxes (Mark X and M-70).

I will move on next to test the two 375 RUM's I have, one with a 3.6" magazine and a 26" barrel, and one with a 3.8" magazine and a 23" barrel.

I did some powder comparisons for my own information. This may be compared to my data on the 375 Wby "Reloading Page" from Saeed's home page:

http://www.accuratereloading.com/375wby.html

If you seat 300 grainers out to 3.750" COL in a 375 Wby with a 24" barrel, you can equal 375 RUM factory loads from a 26" barreled and 3.6" boxed 375 RUM. This is actually 2800 fps with a 300 grainer. Academic, with the right powder.

RL-22 was compared to Norma MRP. They are supposed to be different packagings of the same thing made by Norma. The RL-22 was about 40 fps slower than the MRP and gave greater variation on velocities. This may be a lot-to-lot variation, with the RL-22 being the reject lot of MRP.

I poured some of each out on a white paper. They look the same except the RL-22 had numerous misshapen and varying length grains. Do they sweep up the reject MRP and label it RL-22? Well, it is a substitute for MRP, and the same charges of RL-22 can be used interchangeably for MRP, so far.

The IMR-4350 was compared to H-4350 and AA-4350.

I am sure that the new "Extreme" H-4350 is different, and better than the old H-4350 of 20 years ago.

Hodgdon recommends a max load of 85 grains of H-4350 with 300 grain Swift in the 375 Wby with Wby Brass and 215M primer.

I wanted to compare 88 grains of IMR-4350 and the Sierra 300 grain GameKing in Hornady basic brass with GM215M primer to 88 grains of H-4350 and AA-4350. So I seated the bullets to 3.750" COL to give extra case capacity. Here is what I got out of my 24" barrel:

IMR-4350: 2759 fps
AA-4350: 2791 fps
H-4350: 2808 fps

And, the H4350 gave better uniformity in velocities and metering than the IMR-4350.

I am switching to H4350 instead of IMR-4350, keeping in mind lot-to-lot variations.

Your mileage may vary, start 10% below and work up carefully, and if any kiddies are reading this, don't try this at home without adult supervision.

Use H4350 "Extreme" for easy 2700 fps 300 grainers in a 24" barrel.

Use MRP (or RL-22 if you must) for easy 2500 fps 350 grainers from the 375 Wby with 24" barrel. That is sufficient.

The 375 H+H shoots plenty flat enough for the kind of hunting one dose with a 375. Some guys like the bigger faster 375's. For the most part it make no real difference other than on paper. Every now and again people have the need to reinvent the wheel. When I need to shoot farther, then there are 300 Mags for that purpose, if I need a heavier rifle, there are the 416's. But went its all said and done, you would have to shoot several thousand head of game to be able to tell the difference between the H+H and the Ultra. You would not be able to do so in your life time. Settle on one good load in a good rifle and just learn to shoot accurately and how to get close to the game you are hunting.

The 375 H&H is a fine choice but it is too gentle on both ends for some. Hotrodding it with a 300 grain bullet at higher velocity for farrrrrrrrrrrrrr off targets, or pushing 350 grainers at H&H 300 grain velocity is so much more satisfying at both ends of the rifle, undeniably.

Merely reducing the weight of a 375 H&H to 6.75 pounds only makes it more satisfying on one end of the rifle.

According to Nosler 5th ED., the 4350s are at the fast end of what works well, and I actually think it is too fast with 300 gr bullets. The best high velocity load I have come up with is quite similar to Nosler's, but it uses the Sierra 300 gr Game King in place of the Nosler Partition/Fail Safe, and COL 3.68 vs their 3.60. My Rem 700 has a 26 inch bbl.



With Win LRM primer and 100 grs of IMR 7828, I get 2965 fps and no signs of high pressure...hold the rifle verticle, lift the bolt and it falls open ejecting the case. However, this is 100 fps faster than Noslers max load of 100 grs IMR 7828 with the larger bearing surfaces, so I back down to 98 grs and 2885 fps as a max, just to have a cushion.



I think if you want a Weatherby duplication load at moderate pressure with the Sierra bullet, 93.5 grs of 7828 should get you 2700 fps and drop at least 8000 PSI. This is really a nice load to shoot, and does not even leave a pressure ring on the case head.



Another thing I like about 7828 is that it has a distinctive push in the recoil department, lacking the sharp jab some other powders have.

Sabot,
Ah, yes, back to the 375 RUM, as you were, I would be surprised if you did not get such a high velocity from the RUM, as you are using a hotter primer and a different bullet. I have found that the 300 grain Sierra GameKing alone can add over 50 fps to a load when it is substituted for a 300 grain Nosler or Swift, all else the same.

Funny thing about those Sierra GameKings, they go faster and don't seem to raise pressures.

That Nosler manual data looks good to me, and yours makes sense given the changes of components.

I've got a lot of IMR 7828 to burn, so I will concentrate on that one with 375 RUM.

Well I am very seriously considering rechambering my 375 H&H to 375 Weatherby, since it is inexpensive and I would like to get those 350g Woodleighs up to 2500 fps, and my 250g Swift A-Frames (North American deer/elk load) up to 2900 fps with normal pressures. Sorry for resurrecting these old threads but there's a lot of good info here!

Regards,
Chuck

I don't own or even shot any of the mentioned .375's. Funny thing is I'm juggling between a .375 Ruger in a rifle I could afford (Hawkeye African) or waiting to find a used .375 H&H in a RSM or a CZ550. I know that Nosler now uses the .375 RUM as it's cartridge for it's accuracy testing saying it's the most accurate of the .375's.It's hard for tme to be nostalgic over a cartridge that I never shot but just from reading about it the .375 H&H must be the all around caliber.PaLuke

I see this thread has been resurrected after 4 years.

It is good to know that people actually do searches to find previously discussed topics.

Taking into consideration the experiences of several hunters who have been using our 375/404 rifles in Africa every year, there has been no change from what I have written before.

We have been using our own Walterhog bullets in Tanzania, and as we seem to be shooting buffalo mostly in herds, I have modified those bullets to have less penetration.

I did this by increasing the depth of the hollow point from 9mm to 13 mm.

I've got a nice CZ 550 Safari Classic (that has been worked over a bit) in 375 H&H. AHR glassbedded the action added an extra recoil lug to the barrel, replaced the rear sight with a really nice NECG Masterpiece sight, plus did their CZ #1 Upgrade.



I'm seriously considering having it rechambered to 375 Weatherby in December primarily for the extra 200 fps using 350g Woodleighs. My magazine is pretty long so seating out the Woodleighs to 3.60 OAL or longer is not a problem. I do reload (I couldn't afford to shoot enough to become decent with the gun if I didn't, ammo is $85 a box of 20!). If the bullets don't over expand, the 350g Woodleigh PPs look like excellent Alaskan brown bear and cape buffalo medicine.


Thanks,

Chuck

My cousin has a .375 ultra and has shot four buffalo with it without a hitch. As previously stated I don't think the advantage is as much with buffalo as it is with flat trajectory on plains game. Also a little more penetration on follow up shots at funny angles with buff. If I was looking for a buffalo gun and didn't mind more recoil than the 375 I'd probably just go for a .416. I don't mind the idea of taking more recoil to shoot a bigger bore/bullet, but to me that much more recoil for the same bullet with a little more speed just doesn't make sense. Hence I have a 375. My 2 cents.

Brett

My brother had a pre 64 winchester custom rifle rechambered from 375 H&H to 375 wby. It has a beautiful, but thin(light), stock and recoiled viciously. His PH, Clive Eaton, after shooting it once, promptly hid David's 375 wby ammo so that he had to use 375 H&H rounds. It still hit you pretty hard with H&H.
On my first African hunt, I arrived in camp and Clive asked me what rifles I had brought. Upon hearing that I had a 375, his first words were "not David's I hope!". I'm getting it restocked in an effort to tame it a bit, I'd like to take the thing back to Africa and hunt with it.

Every caliber mentioned so far is an excellent Buffalo caliber..Take your pick..

I know Saeeds 375/404 at 2700 to 2800 FPS is death and destruction on buffalo and so is my 375 H&H, 416 Rem, 404 Jefferys, 450-400, 470, and even my 9.3x62, and I'm betting on my .416 or 404 Ruger for next year maybe to be the same..Bottom line is I can't tell a lot of difference in any of them. They all kill well with proper bullets in the right spot, if your off the right spot the results will also be the same.

As to ammo availability if yours is lost, from a practical point of view I would just figure on using the camp gun because you probably won't find ammo anywhere in Africa except perhaps RSA, and even that is reaching maybe status...Ever tried to find ammo in Dar es Salaam? At any rate your PH probably has some different kinds of ammo left by hunters for just such a situation, but you never know what caliber it will be.