Being a relativity new member of a couple of years I've noticed a recurring discussion, argument and general yelling over just what is hunting, shooting and fair game. Well that same "discussion" has now hit the front page of the October 16 - 17th issue U.S. edition of the Wall Street Journal. Here is the link:

http://online.wsj.com/article/...GHTInDepthCarousel_2

WC 375

That is about as fair and balanced a discussion of the issues that I have heard.

This is my favorite pet peeve in the hunting arena. There is hunting, and there is shooting. Hunting is fair chase, shooting is not fair chase. I don't care how you want to justify it, shooting is not fair chase.

Let's discuss bird hunting. Regardless of whether it is wild birds or pen-raised birds, it is hunting, because it is the dogs that are doing the hunting; we as humans are just shooters.

But when it comes to big game, it's different. Shooting over baited fields, from a heated shooted house, or from artificially high-fenced pieces of property is not hunting; it is merely shooting.

And this is where I differ with many, including Craig B. whom I dearly respect. Just because it's legal, does not mean it's fair chase. There are hunters, and there are shooters. I'm a hunter, now. If my health comes to a point where I can no longer be a hunter and must use other techniques to take game, then I will declare myself a shooter, not a hunter, and will do so with complete satisfaction of my actions.

I personally feel that high fencing operations and baiting should be requalified as "Farming" and "Predator Control", and should never be allowed to be considered for trophy considerations. In fact, the whole trophy concept supported by SCI is a farce, and is primarily supported by money making operations that belittle what true hunters strive to achieve everyday.

If you think you can pay $5000 to shoot a whitetail that has been raised within a high-fenced area and fed the best of nutrients, and call it fair-chase, and call yourself a hunter, and get rewarded an SCI trophy plaque, then go ahead and live in your fantasy land. You have not hunted, and you must live with your own shortcomings.

I will take tremendous flak for what I have written here, but it is written in support of the long line of "hunters" in my family, and the endless days of stalks, some with, and most without game, that truly defines hunting. It is the experiences, the memories, the family, the fellowship, that makes trophies, not a pen raised animal.

Great hunting to you all. Mike

Mike,

I am with you and you are welcome in my camp.

Thing is we generally shoot Lion and Leopard over bait but I consider the hunt as fair chase.

You might want to borrow my flak jacket.

Last I checked anything over 18, but you might want to check your jurisdiction.

Brett

There is a wide gulf between legal and ethical. I have been in similar discussions here, and I have been castigated for saying just shooting an artificially restrained animal is not hunting. If all you want to do is kill something; get a job on the kill floor of a slaughterhouse.

We value things based on the amount of sweat equity we put in. Sportsmen do anyway.

The article is well done, and balanced.

Rich

Please understand, I'm not saying that shooting over bait is un-ethical, it's just not hunting, it is shooting, and is generally not what I consider fair chase. Others will disagree and have the right to do so.

It's just a personal thing to me. I shoot birds and clays; I hunt big game. I even refuse to use an artificial deer stand or artificial hunting blind. I haven't been in a tree stand in over 24 years.

Mike

Oh please!

quote:

Please understand, I'm not saying that shooting over bait is un-ethical, it's just not hunting, it is shooting, and is generally not what I consider fair chase. Others will disagree and have the right to do so.

It's just a personal thing to me. I shoot birds and clays; I hunt big game. I even refuse to use an artificial deer stand or artificial hunting blind. I haven't been in a tree stand in over 24 years.

Then im sure since your so against baiting and pre made stands and blinds do you make your own barrels carve your own stocks cast your own bullets to make it fair as possible ??

I have had the pleasure to hunt quite a few times with the use of bait.
Hunting the likes of Hyena, Lion and leopard over bait still involves excitement, fear and deceiving and out smarting the game in its natural environment. As much as tracking or glassing for them.
There for, I have no hesitation in calling it a fair and ethical method of hunting.

Regards,

Hyena taken on "walk in" to a bait on the Chewore river 08.
Bloody enjoyable hunt.

Ozhunter,

If you can outsmart an hyena and hit it with that blunderbuss of yours then I also consider that fair game.

The question would be where you draw the line, starting with what is a "no" for you. Here's a partial list to begin your choices. Petrol, poison (for arrow tips), dogs, light, water, rutting season, crops, cameras, scopes, factory made components, vs. make your own gunpowder, dig your own ore and 'smith the metal for bullets. At some point hunters decided for advantage over the prey.

Depending on the circumstances one can only decide whether or not the advantage is unfair.

Entirely subjective and, most of all, personal.

quote:

Originally posted by RobinOLocksley:
http://randywakeman.com/Fair_%...r_Fair_%20Minded.htm

Excellent article with good points. I feel sure I have been mis-interpreted here. I am not in support of any legislation that would do away with game farms that allow shooting of would-be game animals. If people want to pay to shoot these animals and it improves the livelihoods of many people, I think that's great.---------But I don't call it hunting. There will come a day when my health will no longer allow me to hunt as I like, and I might consider such game farms to shoot an animal in remembrance of my hunting days; but I won't call it hunting.

And if SCI wants to continue to recognize these so called "trophies", so be it. I don't pay any attention to bogus trophy records anyway. A trophy is truly in the mind of the hunter, based upon many things, but mostly based upon the experience of the hunt in which the game was taken.

The group in North Dakota proposing this ban is mis-guided as well. They don't have to participate in these game farms. Their battle should be a battle of definition. If they want to ridicule those who shoot game on these farms, and characterize them as non-hunters with fake trophies, then that's their right, and they can fight that battle. But they have no right to stop these landowners from raising these animals and charging for the shooting of them as long as the farms are ethically run.

Game farms can be a wonderful experience for the elderly and sick, or anyone else for that matter. But I've got to seriously question your judgement if you shoot an animal on one of these farms, and come to a conclusion that you are a "great white hunter" as a result.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
I have had the pleasure to hunt quite a few times with the use of bait.
Hunting the likes of Hyena, Lion and leopard over bait still involves excitement, fear and deceiving and out smarting the game in its natural environment. As much as tracking or glassing for them.
There for, I have no hesitation in calling it a fair and ethical method of hunting.

Regards,

Hyena taken on "walk in" to a bait on the Chewore river 08.
Bloody enjoyable hunt.

I have no issue with shooting hyena or leopard over bait; sounds like a blast to me as well. I shoot coyote using calls and fake bait; it's a blast.

We're talking about something entirely different here with the high-fenced game farms.

Nice hyena by the way.

Well written article. I am not sure what the "correct" answer is to the fenced game operation. I have hunted on them, some large and some small. I prefer the very large operations but see the points on both sides. I do not think this is an issue that should be decided by voters. It is an issue for the landowner and the hunter.

Anyway, I rarely hunt in the US anymore due to access issues. When I do, it is only on private land and I pay for the priviledge.

Hunting on public land will end in my life time I expect.

The first time I hunted all on my own, I went to one of these "game farms" I walked around found the animal I like and stood there and shot it, there was no excitment and I had a bad feeling about this hunt and vowed I would never hunt this way again. (except pigs in Texas, I just love hunting pigs)

Good article.

To me, it's a question of the size of the property and also the wildness of the game.

I would not hunt a pen-raised animal on a small, high-fenced ranch.

I have hunted, and would hunt again, truly wild and acclimated animals on a large ranch.

I would not support a ban on all ranch hunting, regardless of the size of the ranch and the nature of the animals.

I posted about this on the American site, as I read the printed version first thing Sat morning.

The broader question here that no one seems to be asking is the danger of voter propositions. To me they put all of our liberties at risk. The problems with them are many, not the least of which is this: all voters are equal, but not all voters are equally affected by the outcome. Nor are all voters equally informed. Take gay marriage for example. Those who are gay are affected tremendously; those who are not much less so - but perhaps they find the concept offensive, so they vote against it. Sound familiar?

Anyone one see where I am going with this? In the not too distant future, voter propositions will threaten our very right to hunt. I wish someone would file a lawsuit against the constitutionality of a hunting proposition, on the grounds that it violates the pursuit of happiness language in the US Consitition.

"Game farms can be a wonderful experience for the elderly and sick, or anyone else for that matter. But I've got to seriously question your judgement if you shoot an animal on one of these farms, and come to a conclusion that you are a "great white hunter" as a result."

WTF??? md, I hope that you are the original mountain main,livin' & huntin' off the land to make such a sweeping statement. In fact I hope you hunt all your game with a sharpened stick, and not a modern firearm! Surely you don't use binoculars or a scope? Often its the case of those who righteously point fingers at others should maybe think twice before pointing! JCHB

quote:

AnotherAZWriter
one of us

Posted 18 October 2010 19:07 Hide Post
I posted about this on the American site, as I read the printed version first thing Sat morning.

The broader question here that no one seems to be asking is the danger of voter propositions. To me they put all of our liberties at risk. The problems with them are many, not the least of which is this: all voters are equal, but not all voters are equally affected by the outcome. Nor are all voters equally informed. Take gay marriage for example. Those who are gay are affected tremendously; those who are not much less so - but perhaps they find the concept offensive, so they vote against it. Sound familiar?

Anyone one see where I am going with this? In the not too distant future, voter propositions will threaten our very right to hunt. I wish someone would file a lawsuit against the constitutionality of a hunting proposition, on the grounds that it violates the pursuit of happiness language in the US Consitition.

True. the Wall St. Journal article is remarkably balanced and fair, but we'll not see the same objectivity in most of the news media. There no single issue here and the countervailing arguments are quickly lost in the media frenzy once a simplified referendum is put to the voters. Some US states banned game ranches when it was discovered that, in small ranches, the herds of deer and elk developed CWS (Chronic Wasting Syndrome). The dangers of that seem to have ended, or are greatly diminished, but the instances of it was ammo for banning high-fenced, private, hunting ranches.

There is an immense difference between hunting on a 50,000 acre, or larger, high-fenced ranch or, in steep mountains and canyons, such a ranch of even 2000 acres, and a ranch of 100, or 200, or even 300+ acres on flat land.

The much more dangerous threat to hunting as a sport in the US is the use of artificial insemination and the selling of "breeder bucks" to improve deer and elk herds. Once that starts, it is far too similar to raising prize Angus or Charolais, or the cattle breed of you choice. OR, in Africa, the stocking on bigger ranches of trophy animals, raised in penned areas, and released for an incoming hunter's appearance, is a similar dimunition of sport hunting. Yet, there are arguments for some of such stocking, which arguments (like those on high-fenced ranches in the US) will be swept away by the general public. The difference is that the public will never be asked to vote on such issues in Africa.

We need to make our legislatures well aware of these issues and the scientific evidence and the arguments for fair chase. If, instead, this bone is cast to the public via referendums, it will be devoured without thought or analysis.

quote:

Originally posted by JCHB:
"Game farms can be a wonderful experience for the elderly and sick, or anyone else for that matter. But I've got to seriously question your judgement if you shoot an animal on one of these farms, and come to a conclusion that you are a "great white hunter" as a result."

WTF??? md, I hope that you are the original mountain main,livin' & huntin' off the land to make such a sweeping statement. In fact I hope you hunt all your game with a sharpened stick, and not a modern firearm! Surely you don't use binoculars or a scope? Often its the case of those who righteously point fingers at others should maybe think twice before pointing! JCHB

First, I'm not pointing fingers. I have said I have no problems with folks shooting animals in high-fenced areas; I only have a problem with calling it hunting. And this statement would not be justification for me to be forced to use a sharp stick to hunt. I don't get your reasoning. ---- I could fence in an acre lot that could be used to hold a farm bred "trophy" whitetail, from which I could move back 50 yards with my .338winmag with a 3.5x10scope, hide in a camo nylon shooting tent, with my portable heater and portable tv, wait until the deer was perfectly broadside over the pile of corn, take dead aim, and drop him like a pancake, then high-five with my guide (oh yes, you must have a guide on this "hunt"), come to an almost exhaustive euphoria, give a complete narrative on how difficult it was to get that deer to come in for the perfect shot and discuss the benefits of dusting the corn with c'mere deer the day before the big "hunt". We could then take pictures and pat each other on the back for the great trophy we have acquired.-----And we wonder why ravenous anti-hunting groups and the Humane Society of America is after our hunting rights. We have to police ourselves better and do what is right, for the sake of our hunting preservation.---Why is it that hunting without immediate results is so bad? Must we create a fake environment where a successful kill is the standard? I thought it was called hunting, not shooting? If we cannot create an enviroment of fun, tradition, commaraderie, and fellowship without a successful kill, then sport hunting is gone, forever. We are losing an entire generation, maybe two generations of hunters because of this immediate gratification frenzy. My kids watch many of the tv "hunting" shows and laugh. They don't think it's hunting either. I have struggled with my 14 year old son to get him involved in the hunting tradition. His generation is so filled with immediate gratification that hunting without results could be boring or a sign of failure. We have got to change this trend.

And yes, you're welcome to come hunting with me sometime. We'll stalk whitetail in the mountains, see alot of beautiful countryside, and maybe get a shot at an acorn fed 120 lb buck. But make sure you're fit to hunt and can accept a no bag day. But it will be hunting.

Mike

The fact is that there seems that to be more and more high fence places that cater to hunters. So the demand is there and growing. What also seems apparent is that the people who are hunting on these places are relatively new to hunting and may never have experienced a true wild hunt, so to them this is it! To them the end result of killing an animal that sports a huge rack is far more important than the actual experience of the hunt. I guess it's another manifestation of modern society where everyone is pampered. I personally would have no joy in shooting even a world record trophy in a high fence environment.

I am so ashamed that I have burnt my duck and goose decoys, calls, boat, camo and xtrema 2 so I can be more fair to the ducks.....not to mention burning my ATV, 4WD vehicle, blinds, food plots, bag of c'Mere Deer,, binocs, GPS, topo maps, trail cams,spotting scopes,range finders, rifles, muzzle loadrs, compound bows and high tech arrows, tents, heaters, stoves, freeze dried food, rain gear, waders, boots...I shall feel free and a TRUE hunter tomorrow when I hunt bare footed in my loin cloth with a spear and a rock...
And Mike is right, c'mon down, back pack into Tellico WMA and break thru the rhodedendrum and laurel for a week and never see a deer or boar or bear....and do it again the next chance you get...

I'm with MDSTEWART. Hunting hyenas at night over bait is Hunting. We baited for nearly a week before gettting a hit. When we finally did get a hit we threw the Double Bull up at 100 yds before lunch. Got in at 3:00 p.m at 8:30 p.m. we heard something bigger than a jackal crunching the bait. PH hit the red light, and the hyena immidiately took off to the left of the bait (where I had the rifle aimed) and stopped after about 40 yds, still more or less in line with the bait. Nudged over just a bit on the sanbag rest found a front shoulder and squeezed. Dropped it in its tracks. About 115 yds. I shook like a leaf for 20 minutes in the blind. Photo at link below.

http://www5.snapfish.com/snapf...BRAND_NAME=snapfish/

For my next African Adventure I shall stalk a Leopard, at night of course, without a flash light in my Loin Cloth and with my trusty spear and rock.

Tom,

Please tell me you at least saved the bottles of doe pee!

Only the bottles that I collected by rasslin a doe to the ground and making her pee in a cup before I would let her go...

A half bottle of whiskey hepls with that. One half for each of ya.

I see many large brook trout in the stream in my door yard. I'm gonna bait a hook with a worm and catch a pair very shortly.

Some varmints have been trying to kill my fancy chickens. I'll bait, trap and shoot them all from my front or side porch.

I can't 'bait' deer but I can plant food to attract them. So I did. I can also use animal urine to attract them but no 'food scents' . One day I will kill one over the clover.



Fair game to me, I guess.

Oh, that leopard you are looking at below, shot in daylight over a dead impala. Yep, for real!

Nice cat AHA!!
Mine too was shot in very similar circumstance....uhhh...I mean speared by stalking to his lair in daylight....
BTW, love the warning sign!!!

Ann,

At least as far as the food plot argument goes, I think people who have a beef with food plots in a no-fence siutation just haven't had the opportunity to cut, clear, burn, fertilize, lime, disc, seed and, hope that the rain and the weeds not kill ya and then harvest a mature deer off that plot. Calling that "shooting" is myopic.

It would appear some have an argument with anydamthing that is not done their way....unfortunate....we all, hunters, need to respect each other and fight the common enemy together!

quote:

Originally posted by Tom In Tennessee:
I am so ashamed that I have burnt my duck and goose decoys, calls, boat, camo and xtrema 2 so I can be more fair to the ducks.....
And Mike is right, c'mon down, back pack into Tellico WMA and break thru the rhodedendrum and laurel for week and never see a deer or boar or bear....and do it again the next chance you get...

Tom,

I've never hunted Tellico, although the success rate for dog run black bear is pretty good. When I hunt locally it is usually in North Georgia where there are now more deer, black bear, and wild boar than ever before (these are not high fence areas). Not sure where you've been hunting, but Cohutta continues to provide some outstanding black bear and boar hunting, as well as Blue Ridge WMA & Cooper's Creek WMA, and the Chattahoochee Nat'l Forest has more public hunting for more game than ever before. It's hard hunting, you're right, not for the out of shape and feeble at heart. And there's no guaranteed bags if that's what you want. But it is magnificently beautiful countryside. I've hunted many other parts of the country, lived and hunted in Colorado for 5 years, make annual trips to Montana/Wyoming/Idaho, and am fully aware of the numerous and variety of game in those locales. Can't say I ever hunted in a high fenced area in the Gunnison National Forest. Maybe we should fence in Tellico WMA, stock it with some exotic animals, and offer up "safaris" for exorbitant prices; that would go over big with the local hillbillies (they'll probably line up to shoot a wild Tellico sable).----The truth of the matter is that for the average hunter, places to hunt affordably are diminishing daily; it is quick becoming nothing but a rich man's sport (what did the article say about providing luxuries for the royalty of society). What we need is more public land on which to hunt, not more high fee private ranches or farms. Public/Private co-ops are now gone since the pulp companies have sold off most of their land and are afraid of allowing the public to hunt for fear of lawsuits.---I don't know about you, but I don't mind spending $7000 for a double rifle that will last forever and go up in value, but to drop $7000 to shoot a whitetail or elk is preposterous. And we wonder why we are losing hunters by the thousands every year.-----Our hunting traditions are best preserved by numbers, lots of everyman hunters who pay for licenses, buy equipment and support the local economies, and pass the legacy on to their children. Making hunting opportunities available for only those who can pay handily will be the end to hunting in America.---I just don't think high fence farms should be called hunting, and I think by doing so fuels the fire for anti-hunting groups; and I'd like to preserve my hunting rights and be able to continue beating through the laurel thickets and hunt for those difficult to shoot true trophies.

I always try and ask myself what Aldo Leopold would think and then evaluate from there.

quote:

Originally posted by Pennsyltucky:
I always try and ask myself what Aldo Leopold would think and then evaluate from there.

Very funny. At lease you know who A. Leopold was. I'm sure you re read his book and publications for night time entertainment. I kinda like the Teddy R. mentality, works for people and the enviroment.

Leopold is on my coffee table and 4 or 5 of TR's books are in my bookshelves....shame old TR was a Progressive who helped start the ruination of our country

quote:

I am so ashamed that I have burnt my duck and goose decoys, calls, boat, camo and xtrema 2 so I can be more fair to the ducks.....
And Mike is right, c'mon down, back pack into Tellico WMA and break thru the rhodedendrum and laurel for week and never see a deer or boar or bear....and do it again the next chance you get...

"We're talking about something entirely different here with the high-fenced game farms.
Nice hyena by the way."


I've hunted both RSA and Zim plenty (fenced and unfenced) and there is absolutely nothing unfair about a big fenced piece of property. There are lots of game farms that are 10, 15, 20+ thousand acres of fenced property. If you're trying to convince people that hunting on 20k acres of fenced property isn't fair chase then you've been hunting the wrong plances...or not hunting them at all. Small put and take operations are a different story, but a big sustainable piece of property with over 10k acres...come on...get real.