Hi. I'm a long time viewer new member.

Here's an article on South Africa reopening elephant culling. I love the anti logic against culling. Killing elephants was "undeniably cruel and morally reprehensible." I guess the habitat and other species don't matter. It's funny how armchair conservationists pick and choose which animals or environmental issues are important. It's amazing to me how they classify some animals as having more merit than others.
Hopefully sport hunters can help with the culling. It's never made much sense to me to pay rangers to do something hunters will pay to do. Maybe it's just me.

SA Elephant Culling

Hi Brett. Welcome to the AR forums. This was already posted a little lower on this forum.

quote:

Hopefully sport hunters can help with the culling. It's never made much sense to me to pay rangers to do something hunters will pay to do. Maybe it's just me.

I'm with you on that thought, but there are some who feel that culling should be a whole herd or nothing event and limited to not only pros but culling specialist.

I've had a debate with Shakiri who posts here, who is a PH. He gives some general cites, with no specifics, but I've read many of them previously and while they do suggest the whole herd is the best method, at least some suggest that taking what you can is better than nothing.

I still owe him my cites but haven't had time to dig them out and reread them.

JPK

Actually, that's not quite accurate. I did cite a number of highly qualified authors and other exprts, all who agree that if culling is to take place, it should be done by professionals only and that it should be done on a per family unit. Most, if not all of those did support culling. Even those that do not support culling, will agree that if it is to take place, it should be done on a per family unit basis and only be professional culling teams.

It was you that was unable to name a single author or expert etc qualified to comment that supported the sport hunting of individual females and/or calves as a responsible, scientific conservation method. You did however, say you'd find time to research the subject and name a few names of qualified experts and/or authors who have written on the subject that did support the practice. So far, you haven't done that and the reason you haven't is that there are either very few or none at all. - To the best of my knowledge, there are none at all, except perhaps, some PHs etc who offer it on a commercial basis, who obviously would voice that opinion.

Just a short list of those that agree that culling of cows and calves should be done on a family unit basis and only by professional culling teams are:

Ron Thompson, author of The Wildlife Game, Mahohoba, Game Wardens Report etc etc.

Ian Parker, author of various books on this and other subjects

Peter Beard, The Wildlife Game etc

Every single one of the contributors to the publication The African Elephant as a Game Ranch animal. - Many of whom are doctors of zoology etc.

The vast majority of Game Depts & Parks Boards etc throughout Africa.

And a whole lot more. - Just check on previous threads here and on 24 campfire.

I also pointed out that I don't care what other people do. If you or they choose to shoot individual cow Elephants, it was their business and none of mine. I just choose not to do it myself or allow my company to offer it to clients. But as I've repeatedly said, (IMO) it shouldn't be dressed up as a contribution to conservation because it's not.

I really don't see the point of bringing all this up again as neither of us will ever change the other's mind on this subject and I'm sure other forum members are sick of reading the same opinions/statement etc...... but as you bought me up in your post, I felt I'd set the record straight.

BTW, I'm told that sport hunting in SA NPs is contrary to the SA constitution and if they were to allow it, they would have to amend the constitution beforehand.

Brett, welcome to the forum.

That's it, I'm outta here on this one.

Byee

Shakiri,

As I mentioned in my prior posts, I have read much of the material you refer to. But I found support in it for my arguement, while you did not.

Your cites are general, to a whole book or report. For better or worse, I am an attorney, and a cite to me is a line or paragraph or even a chapter which supports an arguement or a facet of an arguement. You have not provided those. I don't really expect that you would think of a cite as I do but I will provide cites even within the works you refer to which support my view of their conclusions, even if they don't entirely refute yours.

The lack of specific cites from you only means that I have to do a hell of a lot of reading to do before I can make a proper arguement and refute your blanket assertions.

Again, I think you underestimate the value of the opinion of elephant experts who arrive at their expertise in the field and not the library while over estimating the value of the opinion of those who do arrive at their expertise in the library.

Lastly for now, the issue we have been arguing about isn't whether entire herd or family group culling, by culling teams, is the best method of controlling elephant numbers, the issue is whether, in the absence of family group culling, shooting one or multiple cows from a herd or family group is better than nothing.

Family group culling isn't happening and even you don't think will happen. I share that opinion from at least two perspectives, first the political and second the economic. But hunter have and will continue to pay to shoot cows. And in my opinion, to be better supported when I can find the time to reread, this provides a better than nothing, viable solution to sitting on hands doing nothing.

JPK

Steve,
the hunting in Sanparks has got squat to do with the constitution. It is in the National Parks Act, if that is the correct name for that piece of legislation.

That's what I always thought, but two people, one of whom is an ex pat South African member here and the other is my lawyer, both insist that it's also a constitutional issue as well.

quote:

Originally posted by 500nitro:
Steve,
the hunting in Sanparks has got squat to do with the constitution. It is in the National Parks Act, if that is the correct name for that piece of legislation.

I sure don't know how the law works in SA but in the US all laws including the National Parks Acts must conform to the US Constitution.

465H&H

All of the experts listed here have primarily done their work in a National Park type setting. In these situations culling of whole herds by trained Parks personnel is the only way to go. A sport hunter would be a dangerous liability in a whole herd cull. Some one would sure to get killed. The one person killed in the Zim Parks culls was a civilian observer. You can make a case for the sport hunting of bulls (culling) in National Parks.

Shakari states, "But as I've repeatedly said, (IMO) it (shooting of cows) shouldn't be dressed up as a contribution to conservation because it's not." I think Shakari draws too fine a line on what is and is not conservation. Handling problem animal control (crop raiders) is a conservation tool where the culling of a whole herd is not necessary. In many of these situations we are not trying to reduce elephant populations but discourage them from raiding crops. Taking out a whole herd in this situation would be over kill and contrary to population goals. Here the sport hunter has a definite place and shooting of a cow or two out of a herd meets the definition of a conservation practice.

465H&H

Ah Sheeeit, I knew it was a mistake to comment on this yet again..... I'll try to keep it short.

JPK

None of the books I mentioned support sport hunting of cows or calves as a control or conservation method. - If you think they do, tell me a book title and a page number etc.

I cited a long list of authors & books that agree with my point of view, you still haven't named a single one that support yours. Despite saying you were going to do so. - you still haven't.

All the experts I named have had considerable experience in the bush. Parker for example, ran what was the most successful and prolific culling company in Africa for many years. Thomson was one of the head rangers at Wankie for a considerable time.

The issue we're discussing as I kept saying in my thread on the 24 etc is whether the sport hunting of cows and calves is a responsible conservation method to control Elephant numbers and which experts agree with your point of view and support the sport hunting of individual cows etc out of family units, and where they state that. Even now you can't answer that.

To save my time on this, here's the link, and I leave individual members to make up their own minds on what they choose to believe is the responsible method.

http://24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb...26865/page/7/fpart/2

Now, I REALLY am OUTTA HERE.

BYEEEE

I really hate entering into online controversies because of a number of reasons, but one important question is not being answered by shakari:
1. the culling of females by sport hunters generates cash, while culling by professionals consumes it.
2.Public opinion in Sa is against culling in general (wrongly, i think)
3.. keeping in view the above facts, what is more beneficial for wildlife in general? culling of individual animals by sport hunters, generating cash etc, or arousing negative public opinion and spending money to have professionals do the job? In 2008?
THAT question has never been addressed by the authorities on elephant cropping, for whom i have the greatest respect, by the way.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Ah Sheeeit, I knew it was a mistake to comment on this yet again..... I'll try to keep it short.

JPK

None of the books I mentioned support sport hunting of cows or calves as a control or conservation method. - If you think they do, tell me a book title and a page number etc.

I cited a long list of authors & books that agree with my point of view, you still haven't named a single one that support yours. Despite saying you were going to do so. - you still haven't.

All the experts I named have had considerable experience in the bush. Parker for example, ran what was the most successful and prolific culling company in Africa for many years. Thomson was one of the head rangers at Wankie for a considerable time.

The issue we're discussing as I kept saying in my thread on the 24 etc is whether the sport hunting of cows and calves is a responsible conservation method to control Elephant numbers and which experts agree with your point of view and support the sport hunting of individual cows etc out of family units, and where they state that. Even now you can't answer that.

To save my time on this, here's the link, and I leave individual members to make up their own minds on what they choose to believe is the responsible method.

http://24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb...26865/page/7/fpart/2

Now, I REALLY am OUTTA HERE.

BYEEEE

Shakiri,

First, just know that my post refering to your views was not intented to be a "shot" or anything other than noting that others here and elesewhere don't hold the same view.

Second, you keep trying to make the case that the issue is: "Is whole herd or family group culling by culling teams the best way to control elephant numbers?"

That is not the issue!

The issue is: "In the absence of whole herd or family group culling, is sport hunting of cows and so shooting cows out of herds or family groups an effective and viable method of controlling elephant numbers?"

The sources you refer to come to the conclusion that culling herds or family groups is the best method for controlling elephant numbers. I don't disagree!

I also believe that the some, many? of the sources you refer to, and others, those that I have read anyway, also point to sport hunting of elephants, including cows, as an effective alternative when no culling is possible. As I have told you, I will eventually find the time to reread the material and then will provide you proper cites to the passages that support cow hunting as an alternative population control in the absence of whole herd or family group culling by culling teams.

JPK

So read Inlovu's post, it captures the issue before all of us.

So let me get this straight, if cows are dead and therefore can't breed and have calves that doesn't control population growth? Where do all those elephants come from?

My suspicion, based on other animals, is that causing a shortage of females would cause the males to become more aggressive and to wander more.

Likewise, females can be more aggressive when they lose offspring.

Obviously, one of the quickest ways to reduce a population is to disrupt breeding -- which is something much of the US needs to consider to control the white tail population.

I know that this is a touchy subject, but I think that it is a good thing over all for conservation that culling goes ahead. However, it should be completely separated from and seen as completely different to hunting full stop, and that people realise this, especially when dealing with these animals. I myself would prefer to see it be done by professionals who know what they are doing and get the job done as quickly and as painless as possible. I would also like to see whole family units exterminated, because any survivors would be seriously traumatised and probably never forget the incident for the rest of their lives. I think that the bigger family units would probably need rounding up and arial support, and would involve good organisation, communication and good experienced shots.

I think that shooting cows out of breeding herds is full of debate. As to reducing the population with sport hunting, either shooting lone bulls or cows would probably not have much impact on the overall population, otherwise, we would not have an elephant problem as we do now. Shooting adult cows and matriarchs would be very exhilarating from a hunting perspective, but may also have quite lasting effects on the surviving family and make them more aggressive, etc, but there is so much research still to be done on this and at the end of the day money is being generated from hunting, but how much impact does it have on the elephants, we don't really know yet. From long historic conflict with humans, it is safe to say that walking on foot with cows and calves is pretty dangerous wherever you go, whether you are hunting them or not! It does seem though that when matriarchs are removed, new inexperienced cows can lose valuable knowlege that could have been passed on and new matriarchs may be un-sure of how to deal with human encounters and tend to go for fight rather than flight, but again it is hard to say with so many factors whether hunting cows out of herds or poaching is the major contributory factor or not. I would think though that ellies are more intelligent than most people would have thought and especially those who have worked with them long enough would probably back me up on this.

Again, I am all for the culls, as long as they are well organised and professional, and that the meat, skins, etc are not wasted. As to hunting cows out of herds, I would not advocate it but then that is just me, and my view on it for what it's worth. Another problem with elephants is their communication, even if you cull an entire family unit, any other elephants within a few kilometers radius would most likely be in tune with what was going on, so what do you do? Culling however went on for a long time with success and although is has it's problems before it was stopped, it caused more problems and threats to habitat and biodiversity after it was stopped.

Culling has as much to do with sport hunting as commercial fishing with a trawler has to do with fly fishing. They aren't the same and they aren't intended to be the same. The issue with elephants is compounded greatly by their longevity and family group structures. If there is a need to reduce overall numbers of elephants in an area quickly. The surest and most humane way to accomplish this is through culling of complete family groups through operations that are efficient, including the use of abbators, etc., to make sure that meat is processed and utlized for the benefit of local populations of humans. In the case of elephants, this result simply cannot be accomplished through sport hunting in an efficient manner. Moreover, although all of the studies aren't in on the effect of killing off matriarchs and other cows from family groups, there is enough out there to make it seem at least that it has long term detrimental effects on family and group dynamics. Let's hunt the old bulls and if there is need to eliminate certain genetic traits (such as the tuskless gene) then maybe take care of those individuals through sport hunting, but elephants aren't deer or elk, and overpopulations cannot be managed by issuing a few more cow tags in my estimation.

quote:

Obviously, one of the quickest ways to reduce a population is to disrupt breeding -- which is something much of the US needs to consider to control the white tail population.

Not to change the subject but I had to respond to this. immunocontraceptives for deer are not currently available for use and are a long way off in terms of developoment and being practical. The idea sounds good on paper but there are tons of problems with it (how to administer it, it is not permanent, undesirable behavioral affects, cost, etc..)

If you have an overpopulation of something and you prevent breeding, you still have an overpopulation. Birth control is far from a quick way to reduce population size, for that you need sharpshooting IMO.

Oh, and I hope the elephant cull starts soon. It is long overdue in some areas. It is very important for elephants and the future of their habitat.

/

I didn't mean birth control for white tails -- not thinking clearly -- I meant that the hunting season needs to move year round, in areas where they're severely over-populated, and the bag limits need to be greatly increased. Start stressing the fawns, killing pregnant/nursing does, etc. This isn't really as pleasant as "proper" hunting, but certain regions have gotten completely out of control.

Frankly, I don't think too many sport hunters would enjoy culling -- it's more animal husbandry than hunting(presuming it's vaguely similar to pig culls)

As I've said, cullimg teams culling entire herds or family groups is the ideal.

Culling isn't happening. IMO, isn't likely to happen. If it does occurm that is probably the optimum. But again, it hasn't happened in years and probaly won't.

When it comes to economics, its a heck of a lot cheaper from any perspective to have sport hunters involved. We pay to shoot, and that payment pays for the personnel and refrigerated trucks to not waste.

Try the culling team approach, which isn't happening anyway, they get payed and then someone has to pay for personnel to recover and also for refrigerated trucking...

Better some than all? My point.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Having personally known some of the people involved over the years I have come to the conclusion that the opinion of one man who wrote a book Mohoboh hardly makes for a convincing arguement.

This particular source (which I have in my library) and a bunch of greenie pacifists are not what I would consider to be experts on elephant management. For that, I turn to men like Paul Grobler, Richard Harland, etc. who didn't learn about elephants from a book. They wrote the book.

Not only is culling of family groups necessary, so is the sport taking of bulls AND cows, particularly the tuskless gene. All of it contributes to management.

Just to bring in an interesting point of view, read Kai-Uwe Denker sometime and his opinion on the overall intelligence of elephants. He certainly challenged my way of thinking.

Here is another challenge from Kai-Uwe regarding the role of hunters as conservationists...and that is my overarching problem with some of the statements on this and other threads. Make no mistake about it friends...hunters ARE conservationists. If you don't believe that then you need to hang up your boots and go do something else.

Read Kai-Uwe's comments here...http://www.africanindaba.co.za/Newsletter/2.htm

So when does the season open in kruger?

/

Thanks Alf but I'm not referring to your reference at all. I'm referring to others and this conversation goes back far before this topic to other citations. I'm not criticizing anything that you have said. I'm not even referring to Kruger or RSA. Sorry you had to write all of that directed at me as you misunderstood my point (because it wasn't directed to you).

That's one of the problems with the internet. I can write something and people that posted before me think I am writing specifically to them and take offense when in fact I was referring to something else.

Sportshunting these Ellies as a method of generating income and culling them will not be viable to people on this forum in any case, so I do not know why they mention it????

According to a lot of our members, it is and stays a canned hunt, as the million + hectares of the GREATER Kruger National park is FENCED!!!

We have had hunts in the Greater PArk area every year for Bulls, but no one here bites on it, as it is a "canned" ellephant hunt. The hunting areas opened by Parks board are 10's of thousands of acres, and the hunter will not see a fence from the day he goes through the gates.......but that does not "count". It is the same as hunting in other areas in Africa, if the Ellephant crosses the border from your concession into a park or other concession, you cannot shoot it.......

So why all the talk and chat about sportshunting them? We have been doing it for ages.....

If you are realy interested in doing a hunt in the Greater Kruger National Park, drop me a line, and I will see if we can fit you in......

www.infinito-safaris.com

Think of the statement " a memory like a elephant" thats why the whole herd gets taken out. you need to see what happens on these culling operations to comment on it is not a nice sight.its total pandimonium its an excecution and there is no time for bad shots or wounded animals. as much as i want to shoot a elle its not the way i want to do it that is why it is called culling and not hunting. Since culling was stopped by the parks there has been many ellies shot in the kruger by rangers any young male that posed problems is taken out.

in the past the whole animal was used and all the facilities is still at skukuza and it fed a lot of people. yes sport hunting is profitable but i dont think it will have the effect that is needed

for the record, I know nothing about the intricacies of Elephants, their lifecycles and culling practices. So I don't coment on the best pracice angle of the thread.

However it amazes me when sport hunters almost begrudge the culling operations as an infringement on their potential shooting opportunities. If a vast over population of Ele's (or any other species) is inflicting a large cost to the ecosystem then having sport hunters come in and take them our one or two at a time is more costly than paying a team to do the job swiftly now. There is always an opportunity cost when comparing two different options.

On top of that I'd be very doubtfull if many sport hunters were really upto the job. I now that I wouldn't be.

A friend of mine is in touch with one of the parks departments and was asked if he was interested in dealing with a small herd of 6 problem bulls. They had killed 3-4 villagers who were trying to getthem out of the crops and injured some more. He had previously shot 2 lions that were alleged man eaters, and a leopard that was getting a little too close for comfort. Along with a good few Buff he was no stranger to the up close and personal aspect of dangerous game hunting.

After his first experience trying to cull this small herd of bulls he said it was the most terryfying thing he and his friend had ever had to do. His words can't be displayed here but basicaly I don't think you could pay him enough money to go and do that again!!

FB

From what I gather, the reason for targeting family units for culls as recommended by experienced park wardens, such as Ron Thompson for example is based on their knowlegeable observations and management experience. Targeting breeding herds is the only way to make a dent in the population. Shooting many males does not actually seem to have much effect on the over-all population (I do not have references off-hand, but they are out there). The reason for this would be because there are always going to be males from somewhere to mate with the cows, even if they are relatively young.

PAC hunts or culls are very often males, and invole either dangerous animals that are usually carrying an injury of sorts or are crop raiders. This and sport hunting of males or females out of herds has very little effect on the over-all elephant population over a large area.

I don't understand why culling has to be done by professionals. If people are willing to pay to shoot the exact same animals why is that less desirable? Even though culling is not the sporting ideal I know someone somewhere would be willing to pay to do it.

Mikelravy, if you can avoid shooting any fellow cullers and if you can brain 4 or more panic-stricken elephants charging down at you from very close range, one-shot each, then you are probably up to the task I would think (you should have to pass a strict pressurized shooting test first in my books). If you do not feel sick after shooting young or baby elephants you may just enjoy it.

If you talk to those who have done it, you will hear that it is a very hard business. Part of the team leader's job is to get the team through it psychologically...after effects can be harsh. It's not fun or pretty but the need for it is real.

/

you know, dropping nerve toxin bombs from the above jet ranger would be even more 'humane', quicker, and produce lower stress hormone levels in the elephant!
Seems to me shooting as a means of culling is antiquated.

I know you're being facetious but killing without being able to utilize the product is wasteful in a continent where protein is in high demand and short supply. Next country over needs it badly too.

When you look at it that way, it makes more sense to cull surplus and feed the nation's people than to import UN wheat. At the very least, it would offset and supplement other sources of food. Isn't that logical?

I know...I know...no comment necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by yukon delta:
I know you're being facetious but killing without being able to utilize the product is wasteful in a continent where protein is in high demand and short supply. Next country over needs it badly too.

When you look at it that way, it makes more sense to cull surplus and feed the nation's people than to import UN wheat. At the very least, it would offset and supplement other sources of food. Isn't that logical?

I know...I know...no comment necessary.

Yukon, good point and yet one that is never seen in the press when discussing such issues. Everyone that goes on safari must have hhad people question what they do with the Zebra, Ele (any non deer/antelope type game) because "SURELY" you can't eat their meat???

If the meat was sent to feed the thousands of starving people next door them perhaps the argument that they will not be poaching the ele popuulation in Zim would be a rational counter argument, as of course all conservationists believe in managing the population not the individual huh?



Rgds,
FB

Fallow Buck
Nothing in africa is unedible any meat will be eaten snakes,monkeys,zebra and the list goes on even worms and grasshopers.

sometimes a hungry stomach makes you think and prioritise

Rudi,

I think Kiri knows that, he has been hunting in Africa before, but I know what he talks about. There is a common perception in the "other" world where non hunters live, where they truly believe we just murder these animals, and leave them to rot. They do not realise that we utilize EVERY single scrap of it......

I have been saying all along that we should cull the ellies in ALL the countries that have to much, dry the meat and sell/donate it to places where there is a shortage of protein, to the point of people starving.....but there are people with more brains like us "dumb" hunters, so they will decide...

ALF, I know that we are talking about Kruger here, but I think it is best to keep as open a mind on this as possible. There are other areas in Southern Africa where elephants are very close to or have already exceeded carrying capacity (some areas of Bots for example). Sharing valuable knowledge seems to me very important here.

I am sure Stevenson-Hamilton would have loved to have sat down and discussed matters like this with say Ron Thompon. They were both carved from the same block of stone in my mind. They both managed the same animals in similar habitat over a vast area. One with fences one without, but as others have said, fences, what fences?

I think that there are very similar parallels between how Rhodesia/Zim and KNP carried out culls, and I am sure there must have been some collaboration about how to do it between people of those two countries at the time. I think Zim also settled on 7.62 semi-autos and 2 people doing the shooting.

A few years ago at Sci-Fest in Grahamstown they had an open debate about culling, and had the head of the South African Tourism Board there, a head warden from Kruger or one of the larger Natal parks, (can't remember now). They also had Karen Trendler, who does a lot of work with wildlife, and they also had Prof Rudi van Aarde from Pretoria, who at the moment is probably responsible for a lot of research that goes on in the park. It was quite an interesting debate, but with such little time and it was open to the floor as well at the end. I think debates and meetings like this between scientists, conservation groups and management staff, etc are great for this kind of matter, and agree with you totally that it should be left to the scientists on the ground to make the decisions, but this knowlege and discussion should also be passed on to and obviously involve those managing the parks (past and present), and between parks from different countries.

Shakari

Thanks for the welcome. We've actually met before. My cousin, uncle, and I had drinks with you at the late great Sea Cliff at the end of August 2006 after you had dinner with a client. I believe you were headed to the Selous the next day with said client and I checked out your 500 or 505 in the hotel lobby while waiting on rides to the airport.

Hope all is well and good hunting.

Brett

Hey Brett,

Yup, I remember all of you now you mention that.

Cheers for now