quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:


In that scenario no rifle is going to be "big enough", you are going to need to hit him perfectly or you are done.

quote:

Absolutely!

Ever noticed how the big bore crowd talks of the cape buffalo as though he is some sort of monster that needs shot after shot to kill, while the medium bore shooters seem to feel that there is not that much to killing a buffalo? I wonder why...

The reason for the difference in the talk of the two groups is if the medium bore he as not been in an "IN YOUR FACE' encounter with a cape buffalo, because if he has and survives, he will be in the Big bore group next time out!

As someone said above "It is not what a gun CAN do, it is what a gun can be depended on doing" and here I add, IN A TIGHT SPOT!

Ezeriders 338 wil kill any buffalo that ever lived, but killing him, and stopping him before he kills you is a far different matter! Besides, a 338 is not legal for buffalo, so the it is a moot point, except for discussion.

Gentlemen I think the question was "What is enough gun?" Not, "What is bearly enough if everything is rght gun?"

...............Interesting!

JBrown,

I'll take one of those free buffalo too. I'd bet money that thousands of buffalo have been killed handily with well placed 30 cal or less bullets. Also I've used a 338 WM fairly extensively and I'd have no problem hunting buffalo with one particularly if I could use the 250TSX. I think the effect would be indistinguishable from 375 or perhaps larger. Yeah! I agree in the hands of a marksman that a real big bore is better but I think an awful lot of cannon shooters would be better served by a scoped 375. It's just alot easier to shoot for most of us.

The initial question addressed foot pounds. Personally I have not looked at energy figures when looking at a cartridge's stats for many years. I just don't think it means anything in and of itself.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
JBrown,

The initial question addressed foot pounds. Personally I have not looked at energy figures when looking at a cartridge's stats for many years. I just don't think it means anything in and of itself.

Mark

All one has to do the make the FPE higher is use a lighter bullet, at higher speed! That doesn't sound like a real plan to me!

Mark, no argument with your take on the number of buffalo porbably killed with very light rifles, I'm sure that is the case. However I have no doubt as well that there were most likely as many wounded and lost with the light rifles as well. Top that off with most buffalo shot with things like a 30-06 were shot by poachers, and were never followed up and finished, and many of the poachers didn't come home for supper that night.

I'm sure you have seen buffalo take a real pounding before going down, and in those times I doubt anyone with a working brain cell, would say "DAMN! I wish I had a smaller rifle!"
...................

quote:

Just how much is "enough" gun?

When I'm at home in my Barcalounger, something one size bigger than the biggest gun I own. When in the bush, whatever is in my hands at the time. Sorry to be no fun!

What we already know:

1)Bigger bores and more powerful cartridges generally kill better than smaller calibers and less powerful cartridges.

2)All bullets are not created equal, some are better than others for penetration and if designed so, for expansion.

3)Shot placement is everything. A 250 gr 338, 220 gr 308, or even a 400 gr .458 hardcast through the heart is far better than a 500 NE through the guts.

4)Some cartridges are generally killers(smaller calibers), others are generally stoppers(larger calibers) provided placement is correct. Reread #3

5)This one is my own personal opinion. All the horsepower in the world will not compensate for a bad shot because someone is unfamiliar with their rifle or recoil shy. If you make a bad shot on a standing still animal because you can't shoot, how are you going to take out a wounded buffalo, elephant, or enraged bushbuck who wants to stomp you into a bloody pulp or hook you with his horns?

6)PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!
PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!
PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!PRACTICE!

MAC

I don't disagree with anything you said. My post was mostly directed at the misconception that some foks have that you NEED a cannon to hunt buffalo which is not the truth at all. For the average client hunting buffalo a scoped 375 or maybe a 416 is more than enough gun. I recommend a 375 for buffalo hunting novices because I've personally seen several folks get hung up on the romance of the big bore, buy a boomer and proceed to wound and loose their buff and everything else. MOST people just don't shoot them well nor do they have the time or inclination to learn to shoot them proficiently. Next time you speak to a PH that you consider honest ask him what he'd like to see a client show up with for his first buffalo hunt. His ansrer will likely NOT be a 500 something or a big new shiny double.

Your right I have seen buffalo take multiple good hits. I've also killed them with one bullet. My personal expereince is quite limited with buffalo but they don't seem bullet proof. Like I said if someone wants to buy me a buffalo hunt I'd be more than happy to do it with an '06. Of course I'd wait for a perfect shot and I'd be using the best bullets for the job. I think a lot of the lost animals you mentioned were probably shot with whatever ammo was available, the shots taken not the best and the shooter not especially skilled.

NO I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT A 30-06 IS A GREAT BUFFALO CARTRIDGE BUT IT WILL WORK IF USED WITH CARE. ON THE OTHER HAND A BIG BOOMER WILL NOT WORK IF A HUNTER CANNOT HANDLE IT WITH COMPETENCE.

Mark

If you have never hunted buff before, read all you can on here, Bodington's books, Taylor etc. Then try several calibers and action types and select the action and caliber that you have the most confidence in.

465H&H

The bullet only serves to open up a hole in the animal so the fire from the gun can get in and kill the animal. This is really all you need to know.

What is enough gun for buffalo?

.375 H&H. Its the legal minimum.

I have talked with several PH's. They usually want their client to be shooting a .375 until they get to know how well you shoot. I remember my first hunt- my PH was happy with the .375 and was a little skeptical with the .416, but by the end of the hunt, he wanted me to shoot more game with the .416 as he though I shot it quite well.

All of the guys I've talked with pretty much felt that the .375 was capable of doing what needed to be done with DG, from a client's perspective. 1 had done a lot of buff culling and said that most of that had been done with a .303 or a .308. This same guy carries a .505 with clients. Why carry that much if a small gun is "good enough"? Because there are always situations that a bigger gun MAY pull you out of, assuming you can hit what you shoot at.

So the average client? .375 H&H or 9.3x62- legal minimums in most countries.

An experienced client, or PH? the biggest thing you can/will lug with you.

Will work if the planets all align and the Mayan calendar works out? .22 short.

To all the .338 shooters, I have seen 1 buff that was wounded by one, and after it was dropped by the guy with the 505, it turned out that it was just not shot in the right spot, so I guess my experience is not extensive with smaller guns.

Remember though that most game being shot now is probably being shot with a 7.62x39- so by forum rules, its "enough gun", right?

Before I ever began reading on this forum, I thought a 458 Lott was a "whopper". Little did I know with all the 600 OK's and such.
Allot of folks here call 338's and 375's small guns.
I am 6 ft tall and 215 lbs. and in good shape. I think my Lott and 470 is enough; holy mackrell!
I probably would not have bought those until I began monitoring this dialog.
Well, I always wanted a double so I bought the 470; Heym.
There are allot of opinions and experience on this forum.
Allot of "big" guns too. I sure would hate to lug some of those around very long. I guess that is why they have staff to do that in Africa.

EZ

Mark I also agree that for the general client population the 375 H&H is real hard to beat for buffalo hunting. One of my favorite PHs only owns two rifles, both BRNO 602s, one chambered for 270 Win, and the other chambered for 375 H&H, and he can shoot the eyebrows off a tsetse fly at 100 yds with either of them off hand. He also was the first PH to tell me he didn't like solids on anything but elephant, and especially did not like them for Buffalo, no matter that chambering. In all the times I've hunted with him I've only seen him fire his rifle in anger twice but both shots were where they would do the most good.

The only "ONE SHOT KILLS" I have ever experience on Cape Buffalo have been with a 375 H&H, and handloaded 300 gr Nosler partitions, unless the Brain or spine were hit. All others have taken three or more, regardless of caliber or bullet type.

IMO, it goes without saying that if a client can't shoot his rifle well, it makes no difference what the chambering is large or small! The best bullet in the world is worth nothing through the ear of a bulffalo, unless it hits the spine in the neck after it passes thorugh the ear.

The fact that some people can't shoot well, is a cop out when answering the question "What is enough gun for Buffalo?" If he can't shoot his gun, the the best gun for his buffalo is the one someone who can shoot uses to kill his buffalo for him!

The fact is answer to the question is, what ever the rules require! The putting the buffalo in the salt is accomplished by shooting him properly, no matter the legal cartridge and/or rifle type he uses! The smallest, or the larges cartridge in the world is worthless unless the nut pulling the trigger is up to puting the bullet where it belongs!