As I said before, the outfitter probably gave a Minimum Caliber recommendation of 6.5mm for the hunter bringing only one rifle, for use on ALL PG!!! I would tend to agree. Why come to Africa to hunt Springbok, Duiker etc and a trophy Eland you paid a fortune for with a small cal? Doesnt make sense...

I would also suppose that given some of the comments by PH's regarding the lack of client safety with guns that it may be an attempt to keep from having someone with too little shooting experience book with them. If you are scared of anything bigger than a 243, or you don't have anything larger, statistically speaking, you don't and haven't shot much (yes, there are exceptions...) and it may be his way of weeding out the too young and too inexperienced.

I suspect if someone who hunts a lot booked with that outfitter and said all I want to do is shoot a bunch of cull springbok, I have shot a lot of game, (and convinced him of it) and think of my current battery, this would be the best rifle for head shots on game, he may well agree with it and book the hunt despite it not meeting his minimums.

I have also heard way too many horror stories about the .243, but at their base they have one of two things, either someone who was ignorant and was shooting varmint type bullets at big game, or it was someone who had a bit too high an opinion of their own marksmanship and popping animals in the head and shooting them in the jaw or nose or missed the brain, but took out a piece of the head.

Could be a typing error?

the outfitter probably has good reason behind him even though all will not agree. i had a bear guide in alaska years back that kept a spare 375 in camp. if you didn't bring one he told you to leave your rifle in camp & use the spare 375. he had lost to many bears in the past and had confidence in the 375

quote:

Originally posted by Seamaster:
His outfit = his rules.

He probably has good reason for his rule. You could always ask him instead of complaining on the internet.

Seamaster, I was not "complaining". I was simply curious as to other peoples' opinions.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
the outfitter probably has good reason behind him even though all will not agree. i had a bear guide in alaska years back that kept a spare 375 in camp. if you didn't bring one he told you to leave your rifle in camp & use the spare 375. he had lost to many bears in the past and had confidence in the 375

A perfect example of putting all the blame on the gun, rather than the shooter.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
the outfitter probably has good reason behind him even though all will not agree. i had a bear guide in alaska years back that kept a spare 375 in camp. if you didn't bring one he told you to leave your rifle in camp & use the spare 375. he had lost to many bears in the past and had confidence in the 375

A perfect example of putting all the blame on the gun, rather than the shooter.

Yes, indeed.

Not to mention providing and provoking more than ample grounds for sticking the camp rifle into regions of the outfitter where the sun doesn't shine!

A friend and I did a Mouflon Sheep hunt in the Davis Mountains of west Texas a few years ago. The land owner told us he did not allow a 243 rifle on his place. I asked him why not, to which he stated “ The 243 wounds too many animals!” When I told him I had taken about 30 Mule deer all with one shot kills, two bull elk both with one shot kills, and a medium black bear with a one shot kill, and had never had to shoot anything twice with a 243, he said two words BULL SHIT! When my friend told him what I said was true he said again “Bull shit!”

I had a Ruger No 1 chambered for 7mm mag and my friend had a 30-06 bolt rifle and we took two very nice sheep in cross canyon shots of about 300 yds but on either one of those shots my Mannlicher Schoenauer MCA 1961 would have done as well, in fact my friends sheep took two rounds from his 06, but that was not an indictment on the 30-06 any more than it would have been on a properly loaded 243! The animal was simply moving across the opposite wall of a canyon, and was hit a little far back.

On subsequent sheep hunts I took three other sheep with the 243 with one shot kills as well. So, I guess what I’m trying to get across is a sturdy 100 gr bullet traveling at 3000 fps in the boiler room will kill anything in North America, and 90 % of the plains game in Africa or any place else if the shooter does his/her part.

Do I recommend a 243 rifle for everything? Absolutely not! Would I take most of the plains game in Africa with a 243? I absolutely would as long as it is LEGAL! However I can shoot that little Mannlicher, and that is, IMO, what makes the difference!

...............................................................Beware the man who owns only one gun for he likely knows how to shoot it!

Small calibers on big animals is Just weak.
If you can handle bigger, shot bigger. Yes you allways hear some
Guys telling i they have shot several animals and they died with one bullet... But What about the Rest?? You never hear thoose Guys talk!! when they had to use 3 shot from a 6.5mm on a moose, Even when the shot Where good placed, you never hear thoose Guys talk..
So Just because some Guys do it... It is Not recomended.
The Mostly reason i hear from Guys, Why they shot small calibers, is because they dont like the recoil...

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Do I recommend a 243 rifle for everything? Absolutely not! Would I take most of the plains game in Africa with a 243? I absolutely would as long as it is LEGAL! However I can shoot that little Mannlicher, and that is, IMO, what makes the difference! Let me say here for the record, I'm not recoil shy, as I shoot 470NE and 500NE doubles without a flinch!

...............................................................Beware the man who owns only one gun for he likely knows how to shoot it!

quote:

Originally posted by Nitro_Andreas:
Small calibers on big animals is Just weak.
If you can handle bigger, shot bigger. Yes you allways hear some
Guys telling i they have shot several animals and they died with one bullet... But What about the Rest?? You never hear thoose Guys talk!! when they had to use 3 shot from a 6.5mm on a moose, Even when the shot Where good placed, you never hear those Guys talk..
So Just because some Guys do it... It is Not recomended.
The Mostly reason i hear from Guys, Why they shot small calibers, is because they dont like the recoil...

Nitro A, I totally agree with you, and as I said I don’t recommend the use of small chamberings where a larger caliber is a better choice.

Even the old guys like Bell and others who used small rifles in days gone by, is not a recommendation in my opinion. All I’m saying is the small bullet in the boiler room is just as deadly as a cannon in the wrong place. I have no doubt in my ability with what ever rifle that happens be in my hands , but that doesn’t mean I would recommend the same rifle for someone else, and in most cases the game departments have laws that doesn’t allow small chamberings on some animals. Though Bell did his job with a pop gun is certainly not a case for others to doing so!
PS: For the record I'm not recoil shy, and I shoot a 470NE for hunting wild hogs for practice!
......................................................................

The guide I hunt Elk with in Colorado has a hatred for .7mm Rem Mags and those using them because in 40 years of guiding he has seen more elk wounded and lost by hunters using .7mm Rem Mags. Does he really blame the caliber, No!

He blames the idiot clients that A. do not work with the gun enough to become competent with it, and B. because they don't actually work with the gun, they make piss poor choices concerning the ammunition/bullets they choose to use.

It is not the guides/PH's fault or the indestructibility of the game. it is a complete lack of knowledge of the client.

On our deer hunts here in Texas, we require our hunters to use a minimum of .243 caliber. Even though a .223 will kill any Texas deer ever born, it is the hunters ability, or lack there of that dictates what should be used.

quote:

Even the old guys like Bell and others who used small rifles in days gone by, is not a recommendation in my opinion.

Bell himself stated that he did not recommend small bores for novice inexperienced hunters.
nor did he recommend such novices to substitute for a larger calibre to compensate for their lack of personal ability.
Bell noted that poor shot placement with 7x57 is what got a good number of those novice hunters killed or mauled.
Bells large tally of DG with 6.5mm and 7mm, exemplified how important cool nerve shot placement is (vs) calibre size.
Bell also employed those calibres to take much of the camp meat for his 150 porters.

Harry Selby himself, his teen son Mark and teen daughter Gail, between them over the yrs, used Bells 7x57 to take animals including:
Ele, buff, kudu, wildebeest, tsessebe, lechwe, zebra and impala.

Ruark also had used the Bell 7x57 for a safari in 1956:

"By the end of that safari the little Rigby rifle had accounted for a sable, a roan antelope, two zebras and a fair number of plains-game species
required for camp meat. Seldom was a second shot required—the .275 did all that was expected of it, and more."

....Bob also used the little Rigby on a later safari to Karamoja—Bell’s old hunting grounds in Uganda.....game was so scarce that the only animals
we got to use it on were the hartebeest. We shot a number of them for lion bait and again the .275 proved more than adequate."

- Harry Selby


"I had Larry Barnett whip up a box of 7×57 ammo with 175-grain Barnes Super Solids. The water buffalo is, perhaps, not quite as aggressive as Africa’s Cape buffalo-but
he’s a whole lot bigger, with genuine weights up to perhaps 2300 pounds. We took a lot of time crawling up on a monstrous bull, and when we got in close that little 7×57
suddenly felt awfully small! But now I was committed. With his head quartering toward me I held halfway between his eye and the base of his horn, and that little bullet
dropped him like a rock-just like it did for Karamoja Bell a century ago."

- Craig Boddington.



Mark Sullivan says his clients are poor hopeless shots that need his help to finish the job, regardless of the calibre they used.
Even with MS , we have seen him misplace a brain shot with his large bore SxS, and the buff just kept coming.

quote:

All I’m saying is the small bullet in the boiler room is just as deadly as a cannon in the wrong place.

Ill would much prefer a small bore to the brain of an animal over a large bore to ANY other part of body.

and If any one can tell the difference between an animal that still runs 40yd after being hit in the heart with either a broad head, or 7x57 or .375
please explain it.

quote:

Originally posted by lal:
As I said before, the outfitter probably gave a Minimum Caliber recommendation of 6.5mm for the hunter bringing only one rifle, for use on ALL PG!!! I would tend to agree. Why come to Africa to hunt Springbok, Duiker etc and a trophy Eland you paid a fortune for with a small cal? Doesnt make sense...

lal, I agree that using a smaller caliber for larger plains game like eland or zebra may not be wise. I brought two rifles with me the last time I landed in PE for a hunt--the .257 Weatherby and a .300 WSM. The largest animal I shot with the .257 was a blesbok. My partner brought his .257 along with a .30-378 for the larger animals. I will stick to my original assumption that the .257 Weatherby with Barnes bullets is an excellent choice for the smaller species.

quote:

Originally posted by Nitro_Andreas:
Small calibers on big animals is Just weak.
If you can handle bigger, shot bigger. Yes you allways hear some
Guys telling i they have shot several animals and they died with one bullet... But What about the Rest?? You never hear thoose Guys talk!! when they had to use 3 shot from a 6.5mm on a moose, Even when the shot Where good placed, you never hear thoose Guys talk..
So Just because some Guys do it... It is Not recomended.
The Mostly reason i hear from Guys, Why they shot small calibers, is because they dont like the recoil...

If everyone shot as as well, no one will have problems with small calibers.

The problems occurs when people who do not know how to shoot try it.

And the same results will occur with those same bad shots no matter what caliber they use.

Bullet placement is the most important single thing in hunting.

Not the size of the bullet.

Interesting thread.
I have small cals as well as very large cals, without practise, the big bores can be difficult to master, I whole heartedly admit that. I would not say I am recoil sensitive, maybe off the bench I am, but I know 100% that I shoot a rifle in 338 and under far more accurately than anything above that.
I once, many years ago, wanted to hunt Canada and Alaska for brown/kodiak bear, contacted a few outfitters and the very first one asked what rifle(s) I would be using, I replied that I would be taking my 338WinMag and 340 Weatherby for my hunting partner, he only had a 30-06 of his own.
This outfitter said in no uncertain terms that he would not take anyone after bear with a 338 cal rifle. Period. He asked if I had something bigger, which I told him I had 100% confidence in MY ability and the ability of a 250gr Partition on ANY North American game, which he then hung up on me!
Suffice it to say, he didn't get my business, but interestingly, while there, we ran into a few that felt the 338 a little light for bear, and recommended 416's and 458's.
I can understand PH's disliking certain cals due to THEIR experiences, but putting a blanket ban on them is kinda ridiculous. I cannot stand hunting with people who use a 243, I have HAD TO put animals out of their misery far too many times due to POOR BULLET PLACEMENT AND THE EXPLOSIVE EFFECT OF LIGHT 243 CAL BULLETS. Have seen several goats and pigs invicerated by this cartridge just standing around while the numbnut hunter fumbled around because of what they've caused to the animal, where I have then had to shoot their animal. Everytime, I have been berrated for shooting their animal!

Anyway, rant over.

Cheers.

quote:

Originally posted by 416RigbyHunter:
Interesting thread.
I

I can understand PH's disliking certain cals due to THEIR experiences, but putting a blanket ban on them is kinda ridiculous. I cannot stand hunting with people who use a 243,

Anyway, rant over.

Cheers.

Reads a little contradictive...NO?

You can get contradictory opinions from PH's as well.

One I know despises the 7mm Magnum but loves the 257 WBY?????

A friend of mine in Namibia is always more interested in the type and weight of bullet that is in the load, than sheer power. And it's a sensible approach with PG hunts.

I know of hog hunt outfitters here in Texas that will not let .223's on the ranch. Not because they can't kill a decent sized hog as one in the brain will certainly do it. They ban them because some hunters get the itch when they see that 600lb monster boar even though they have been told not to shoot the big ones. will a .223 kill a 600 lb boar? Sure, if it done right. But what about the fella that has never shot anything that big? Or has "hog fever" so bad he is shaking? It is not like the clients are all family members that the outfitters know well. Makes it a lot simpler just to ban anything smaller than .243. I can empathize with the outfitter in that situation. Especially in Africa where the .243 might be just fine for small to mid sized critters but when that trophy Eland steps out of the brush....:-0

It seems we are penalizing everyone for the mistakes of a few?

Saeed,
Africa has legal calibre minimums but no required minimums on the shooting skills required by recreational hunters before going afield.
that seems strange because poor shot placement is much more the cause of wounded and escaped animals, than size of calibre.

the 6.5mm/.256 bore, was used very successfully in Africa by among others;...
- Mr.Bell
- Mr.F.Selous ,(wrote of good results of .256 bore on elephant, he used a rimmed .256 bore H&H single shot rifle)
- the Hemingways
- PH-Phil Percival .

Bell killed some 300 elephant and Percival killed his tally of 31 lions,.... with the .256 bore Mannlicher.
mind you they also achieved this by just relying on their individual selves, no back UP!
not surprisingly, Hemingway wrote to say that he attributed Phil Percivals success with the .256 bore, as being due to his fine shooting skills.


other well noted hunters in history that had success whilst being prominent users of the .256 bore, were;

- Blayney Percival ,(a Kenyan game warden and .256 bore advocate, with personal tally of about 100 lions)

- Major C,H. Stigand (including elephant and rhino)

- Sir Alfred Pease (a reknown lion hunter around the same time as Selous, but used .256 bore to also take rhino and elephant)

- Major R. L. Kennion (hunted bear and yak, and wrote "Sport and life in further Himalayas")

- Capt. H. A. Wilson (of the Kings african Rifles, he took game including lion,elephant,eland and buff)

- Sir Edmund Loder ( book:- "Edmund Loder,naturalist,horticulturist,traveller and sportman: a memoir" )

- Dennis D.Lyell ( wrote: "Wildlife in central Africa" and: "The African elephant and its Hunters")

- George Littledale - once wrote to D.Lyell:

"In 1895 Sir Edmund Loder gave me a Mannlicher rifle, all complete on the eve of starting for Tibet.
Had only time to have sighting altered. On my protesting that I had a room full of rifles and did not want any more, all he said was try the Mannlicher,
... I have used no other since."

- John G. Millais

- Leslie Tarlton (a most famous Kenyan lion hunter)

- Denys Finch-Hatton ( african BG hunter, killed not by using his small bore, but in his Gypsy Moth)

- Hesketh K. H. Prichard

- Vilhjalmur Steffanson (variety of game including grizzly and polar bears)

- Capt.P.B.Vanderbyl

- Crawford Fletcher Jamieson (Rhodesian professional ivory hunter in the 1930s-40s)

- Charles Sheldon (killed several brown and polar bears with .256 bore, and quote:- "..but for large game my Mannlicher, .256 calibre, is the only rifle I have used in the North.”)

- Roy Chapman Andrews. ( Coastal grizzlies with .256 bore.. and a tremendous amount of Mongolian game animals)

- Major Percy Horace Gordon Powell-Cotton. (filled a museum with African game taken with .256 bore)

- Kalman Kittenberger (on his 10-year exploration of Africa,used his Model 1903 .256 bore to collect many of the 300 or so animal species for the Hungarian National Museum)

Even large bore advocate Elmer keith, wrote to acknowledge the success and effectiveness of the .256 bore Mannlicher throughout the US and African continent.