As I was researching hunting websites, I found the following statement from an outfitter in the Eastern Cape:

“We do however not allow any calibre less than 6.5mm to be used on the Safari. lt is not ethical as it increases the chances of wounding an animal.”

This surprised me greatly as the 25-06 and certainly a 257 Weatherby Magnum could be considered ideal for many of the smaller Eastern Cape species like common duiker, springbuck, impala, vaal rhebok, cape grysbok, mountain reedbuck, etc.

Publically stating that using a smaller caliber than 6.5mm is unethical for some of the Eastern Cape’s plains game makes me personally question their knowledge of ballistics. In fact it would concern me enough to eliminate them from my list of potential future hunts.

I certainly appreciate anyone’s opinion, but why would you place that type of statement on your website and potentially eliminate future customers? Would it not be wiser to “recommend” calibers? Opinions???

If you look enough around some of the South African websites, you will see so many silly statements.

In fact, I actually met one at a hunting show who was so adamant that animals are so precious do do not allow a hunter to shoot more than one of each species!!?

And he was offering hunts on farms!!?

Different people, different opinions.

I shoot a 375 H&H for everything but I wouldn't hesitate to use a 22.250 - 243 with the right bullets for a number of the smaller antelope.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Different people, different opinions.

I for one don't consider a 25-06 let alone a 257w ideal for smaller game like cape grysbok. If I felt strongly enough about it I would say its not ethical. I don't feel that strong about it so I just say that its a poor choice.

I imagine a lot of outfitters believe that larger calibers will help compensate for what they cannot talk about. That being the horrible shots that show up on safari too often for their liking.

SDS, Rather than not showing a knowledge of ballistics, perhaps the outfitter has experienced his share of less-than-stellar smaller caliber shooters and feels, for these hunters, bigger may be better. I know of two WY antelope guides who prefer their clients bring rifles larger than .243...

Me thinks they mean as a minimum caliber for PG from Duiker to Eland. I do not think they would object to you using a 6mm or .25 on a Duiker or Impala but on you dream Eland ....think the certainly would object.

My guess is that they sincerely believe what they wrote, and that using the smallest caliber possible is not a game worth playing even if it costs them business.

At least they are upfront about their policy. The customers are free to go somewhere else with their 25s, 6mms and money.

quote:

I for one don't consider a 25-06 let alone a 257w ideal for smaller game like cape grysbok. If I felt strongly enough about it I would say its not ethical. I don't feel that strong about it so I just say that its a poor choice.
[/QUOTE]


Just for curiousity, do you think .257 is too big or too small?

When it comes to the shooting event it's not the calibre that creates the unethical aspect, but rather poor shooting from the hunter.

Having culled over a thousand springbok, blesbok, reedbuck, and impala with a 25-06 and later with a 260 Rem, his statement holds no validity. Lots of old timers shot everything including ele with a 7x57 without any problems so today's quarter bores with all the excellent bullets choices can get the job done without any concern whatsoever.

HOWEVER, IF I was a PH and dealing with clients, I would set a .270 as an absolute minimum for the small guys, a .300WM for the medium guys, and .375 for everything else up to ele. Chasing wounded animals is not much fun for anyone. So carry a big gun, please shoot straight and leave "ethics" out of the conversation.

Dogleg,

You must be kidding?

Just thinking about the poor taxidermist that would have to put little Humpty Dumpty back together again.

close range + high velocity + tiny animal = less than ideal life size mount.

I'm with Fjold
375 minimum for Africa, that way one rifle thru all the hassles

A lot of PH's make statement based on their own experience with clients in the field and that is understandable. Two safari operators that I know very well have made some incredible statements. One hates Weatherby rifles and calibers because a guy had a Weatherby that went off when you closed the bolt (sear engagement) and he had a couple of clients superficially wound animals (frangible bullets). Another hates the 7 RM because of wounded animals (poor bullets). Do not expect your PH to be a real gun/ballistics guy. Most are not.

Mark

I'd been hunting geese on the river here, very successfully. Then there was a program about such hunting on the local TV outdoor show.
I knew what was comming.Many complaints - illegal, unethyical etc. It was neither ! In fact it was a very old technique of the American Indian . From stirring up the antis and the clueless and encouraging the skill-less it ruined things. I watched 4 canoes [ 8 "hunters " x3 = 24 rounds ] come upon a small group of geese .After the noise settled they had taken ONE goose .
But I suppose these African hunters would be insulted if they had to pass a proficiency test !

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
A lot of PH's make statement based on their own experience with clients in the field and that is understandable. Two safari operators that I know very well have made some incredible statements. One hates Weatherby rifles and calibers because a guy had a Weatherby that went off when you closed the bolt (sear engagement) and he had a couple of clients superficially wound animals (frangible bullets). Another hates the 7 RM because of wounded annals (poor bullets). Do not expect your PH to be a real gun/ballistics guy. Most are not.

Mark

Those magnum rounds were frequently loaded with bullets that could not stand up to the velocity.

quote:

You must be kidding?

Just thinking about the poor taxidermist that would have to put little Humpty Dumpty back together again.

close range + high velocity + tiny animal = less than ideal life size mount.

A solid from a .416 does a lot less damage than a high velocity expandable bullet from a smaller calibre -- except for a warthog I took a Texas heart shot on that just simply came unwound. Never seen anything like it.

quote:

Originally posted by joester:
SDS, Rather than not showing a knowledge of ballistics, perhaps the outfitter has experienced his share of less-than-stellar smaller caliber shooters and feels, for these hunters, bigger may be better. I know of two WY antelope guides who prefer their clients bring rifles larger than .243...

I think he might be showing either his own inexperience or the inexperience of some he has hunted with.

With today's bullets, I would not even hesitate of shooting ANY plains game with either a 25 caliber of a 6.5 caliber rifle.

And I can even give him a written guarantee that no animals would require a second shot, under shooting conditions on a farm!

In other countries, there are minimum calibers for certain animals.

That is different than what the outfitter is showing above.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:

quote:

You must be kidding?

Just thinking about the poor taxidermist that would have to put little Humpty Dumpty back together again.

close range + high velocity + tiny animal = less than ideal life size mount.

A solid from a .416 does a lot less damage than a high velocity expandable bullet from a smaller calibre -- except for a warthog I took a Texas heart shot on that just simply came unwound. Never seen anything like it.

Saw the aftermath of a klipspringer that was shot with a 7mm Dakota. Resembled a shaved poodle lying next to a pile of pine straw. Was beyond taxidermist help.

My only question was "Why?"

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:

quote:

You must be kidding?

Just thinking about the poor taxidermist that would have to put little Humpty Dumpty back together again.

close range + high velocity + tiny animal = less than ideal life size mount.

A solid from a .416 does a lot less damage than a high velocity expandable bullet from a smaller calibre -- except for a warthog I took a Texas heart shot on that just simply came unwound. Never seen anything like it.

Did you get a pict?

Lesser bore sizes than 6.5 mm are unethical for plains game?

That's asinine.

Damn! And, to think I killed a blue duiker with a 22LR about 3 months ago in the EC. I guess I'm one of the unethical type!

Well if your client brings only one rifle (as most do), and considering most clients want to shoot some bigger species as well, the statement makes sense. I would not shoot a kudu with anything smaller than a 6.5, or a BWB with anything smaller than a 30 (although I have done it with a 250 Savage).

Interestingly, many South Africans use the 222 to shoot springbok, impala and the like.

quote:

Originally posted by Navaluk:
Dogleg,

You must be kidding?

Just thinking about the poor taxidermist that would have to put little Humpty Dumpty back together again.

close range + high velocity + tiny animal = less than ideal life size mount.

Oh, I know that it would pop like a balloon, just wondering what you thought. I don't think that a messy kill is unethical though, a quick death is a quick death. Probably a faster death that the steinbuck I shot with a .375. That ran maybe 30 feet.

He said he would consider the 25-06 and 257w as ideal for grysbok. I simply do not agree. I'm not getting into ethics at all.

Reminds me of the time we were following kudu tracks, and I had a 270 rifle with me.

We saw fresh tracks of a big male lion.

I said "what do we do is we see the lion?"

My Ph said "shoot it!"

I said "we have the wrong caliber rifle for lion"

He said "I am sure he would not know the difference!"

Good one ! There was an old timer in my area , who had sadly passed away now , whom I knew very well. He shot well over a hundred Lion in his life time under different circumstances . All of them fell to his 6.5 x 55 , even the wounded ones he had to follow up. His family eventually bought him a 30 06. He thought it was a cannon !

I hunted the Eastern Cape with a 257 WBY custom rifle and 90gr XBT's years ago.

Took 3 Cape Kudu, black and white springbok, mountain reedbuck, bushpig, common reedbuck, vaal rhebok, grey duiker and a klipspringer.......with no massive damage to the capes and only one kudu requiring a second shot.

Mates of mine in Namibia use the 25-06 quite a bit and you will always see 243's on cull hunts........

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:

quote:

Originally posted by Navaluk:
Dogleg,

You must be kidding?

Just thinking about the poor taxidermist that would have to put little Humpty Dumpty back together again.

close range + high velocity + tiny animal = less than ideal life size mount.

Oh, I know that it would pop like a balloon, just wondering what you thought. I don't think that a messy kill is unethical though, a quick death is a quick death. Probably a faster death that the steinbuck I shot with a .375. That ran maybe 30 feet.

I did shoot a Cape grysbok with a 300 WSM and 165 grain Barnes TTSX. The shot was perfectly broadside and the bullet entered tight behind the shoulder and exited tight behind the shoulder. There was a .308 hole going in and a thumb sized hole coming out. I would imagine the same shot with my 257 Weatherby and a TTSX would create an even smaller exit.

On another trip I shot a two impala,

quote:

Originally posted by Blair 338RUM:
I hunted the Eastern Cape with a 257 WBY custom rifle and 90gr XBT's years ago.

Took 3 Cape Kudu, black and white springbok, mountain reedbuck, bushpig, common reedbuck, vaal rhebok, grey duiker and a klipspringer.......with no massive damage to the capes and only one kudu requiring a second shot.



Mates of mine in Namibia use the 25-06 quite a bit and you will always see 243's on cull hunts........

I used a .257 Weatherby with 100 grain Barnes TSX to take a vaal rhebok, mountain reedbuck, fallow deer, blesbuck, warthog, steenbuck, common duiker, springbuck, bushbuck, oribi two common duiker and two implala. The bullets performed flawlessly.

My hunting partner shot ten animals with his .257 Weatherby including a kudu and all were very fast kills.

quote:

Originally posted by SDSpink:

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:

quote:

Originally posted by Navaluk:
Dogleg,

You must be kidding?

Just thinking about the poor taxidermist that would have to put little Humpty Dumpty back together again.

close range + high velocity + tiny animal = less than ideal life size mount.

Oh, I know that it would pop like a balloon, just wondering what you thought. I don't think that a messy kill is unethical though, a quick death is a quick death. Probably a faster death that the steinbuck I shot with a .375. That ran maybe 30 feet.

I did shoot a Cape grysbok with a 300 WSM and 165 grain Barnes TTSX. The shot was perfectly broadside and the bullet entered tight behind the shoulder and exited tight behind the shoulder. There was a .308 hole going in and a thumb sized hole coming out. I would imagine the same shot with my 257 Weatherby and a TTSX would create an even smaller exit.

On another trip I shot a two impala,

Don't bet on it. Wind the speed up to 35-3600 and see what you get.



Or maybe a 100 grain Ballistic-tip? This is the entrance, there was no exit but it made it to the hide on the far side. Don't get me wrong, I like the .257 'Bee. Lightning fast kills on deer sized and smaller animals and usually a mess to go with it. I just don't take it to Africa is all.

First time I went on a guided mule deer hunt in Wyoming I brought my 257 Weatherby and the guide tried to insist I use his 30.06 because he felt the 100 grain Hornady bullets were too small. I refused and on the third day of a five day hunt I took a 26" wide 4 point that was facing me downhill at 270 yds on the rangefinder. The " little" 100 gr. hornady took out the heart, one lung, thru the guts and ended up in perfect mushroom in the left ham. Guide told me after the he needed to get one of them California guns. Its all in bullet placement.

quote:

Originally posted by SDSpink:

quote:

Originally posted by Blair 338RUM:
I hunted the Eastern Cape with a 257 WBY custom rifle and 90gr XBT's years ago.

Took 3 Cape Kudu, black and white springbok, mountain reedbuck, bushpig, common reedbuck, vaal rhebok, grey duiker and a klipspringer.......with no massive damage to the capes and only one kudu requiring a second shot.



Mates of mine in Namibia use the 25-06 quite a bit and you will always see 243's on cull hunts........

I used a .257 Weatherby with 100 grain Barnes TSX to take a vaal rhebok, mountain reedbuck, fallow deer, blesbuck, warthog, steenbuck, common duiker, springbuck, bushbuck, oribi two common duiker and two implala. The bullets performed flawlessly.

My hunting partner shot ten animals with his .257 Weatherby including a kudu and all were very fast kills.

Nice one

quote:

Originally posted by Paul C:
First time I went on a guided mule deer hunt in Wyoming I brought my 257 Weatherby and the guide tried to insist I use his 30.06 because he felt the 100 grain Hornady bullets were too small. I refused and on the third day of a five day hunt I took a 26" wide 4 point that was facing me downhill at 270 yds on the rangefinder. The " little" 100 gr. hornady took out the heart, one lung, thru the guts and ended up in perfect mushroom in the left ham. Guide told me after the he needed to get one of them California guns. Its all in bullet placement.

One of mine has a couple of moose to its credit, with the cheapest factory loads. Its maybe not a great endorsement because I've only got a $30 tag and some gas money invested in the project and fully understand that there are shots that cant be taken that would be perfectly viable with a .300, .338 or .375.

There are plenty of situations in Africa that a .257 would be tailor made for; and many where it would be stretching things and still others where it would be a real handicap. Its not so much that there isn't a right way to use it, but there are a lot of wrong ways too. 270 yards on a mulie; perfect. 27 yards on a eland; not a good idea. You can buy a couple Weatherbys for the price of messing that up.

My 260Rem goes to Africa with me every year on plains game hunts. In fact I haven't taken my 375 for the last three years, (although that changes this year) as I haven't felt the need for it.

I understand that some PH's have had experiences that sway their opinions on calibers but almost always it is about the guy pulling the trigger or poor bullet choice.

K

Bullet placement is paramount, selection of the proper bullet for the job at hand is also important.

I have a beautiful 6.5x 54 MS takedown Jeffery rifle. Seems I have read a number of stories about the old African hunters using this caliber with good results. We have killed sever hundred whitetail deer at my ranch with the 260 REM.and 140 Core Lint bullets. Evidently we must be doing something wrong.

So this outfitter thinks a man hunting with him who is so out of his depths, shooting a large bore rifle he cannot handle, is better than a man hunting with a 6.5 caliber rifle and knows how to shoot it?

Makes sense I suppose to someone who is so out of touch with reality about what hunting is.

My quote on this, " If you can't hit a cow in the ass with a snow shovel, it doesn't matter what rifle you are shooting. A bullet in the boiler room does wonders."

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
So this outfitter thinks a man hunting with him who is so out of his depths, shooting a large bore rifle he cannot handle, is better than a man hunting with a 6.5 caliber rifle and knows how to shoot it?

Makes sense I suppose to someone who is so out of touch with reality about what hunting is.

He doesn't seem to have any problem with 6.5s.

His outfit = his rules.

He probably has good reason for his rule. You could always ask him instead of complaining on the internet.