Hi everyone,
Looking for your collective input. . .
Over the last couple of years I've done a little trading and put together a pretty classic 2 rifle battery in anticipation of my first African hunt in 2011. The first is a Westley Richards 318 bolt, the second a Jeffery 450/400. Problem? Neither are scoped and I refuse to consider modifying either of these open-sighted rifles.
I'm still young with great eyes and grew up shooting iron sights, but the limitations are obvious. Intended quarry will be buffalo and a smattering of PG; haven't decided on where yet. My tentative thinking is to have my GF bring my scoped M70 in 270 totalling 3 rifles between us. Seems a shame to not bring the WR and figuring I could likely pull off a couple shots with the iron sights. An unscoped medium bolt rifle in this day in age probably isn't the most practical thing going; what are you guys doing who own these classics and don't want to mess them up by scoping? Any input on my choice of calibers?
Much thanks,
Bill

As long as you understand that your battery will severely curtail your chances and that you accept that then you will have no problem. Expect to possibly come home with very few trophies and a number of "lost" opportunities. The area you are hunting will also make a big difference. Buffalo with the double will be no problem but shooting a bushbuck sized animal at 125 yards open sighted will be a good challenge no matter how old you are. I would strongly suggest that your GF packs that scoped .270 with premium 150 grain bullets

Since you've got between now and 2011, you certainly have time to find a range with targets at 200 yards. See how you do on paper, shooting from sticks, and if you can group 'em good enough to feel comfortable with your iron sighted 318, then there aren't really any limitations other than the ones you'll set for yourself.

I like your battery and I like your style. Do as Wink says, and also book plenty of days for the safari, so you can take advantage of opportunities, given the self-imposed limitations. Enjoy!

Mad Dog

I couldn't do it as I have become spoiled by my scopes. That said, they have been killing animals with iron sights for quite awhile now, and I'm sure if this is what you really want to do and commit the time to practice, practice to the point that it becomes almost part of you you'll be fine. Maybe have to pass on a few more animals, but you know that going in. Like I said the irons on the medium gun isn't for me, but I see the histrionic angle and think it is kinda cool. Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Dog:
I like your battery and I like your style. Do as Wink says, and also book plenty of days for the safari, so you can take advantage of opportunities, given the self-imposed limitations. Enjoy!

Mad Dog

+1

As others have suggested shoot your guns at @200 yards. I would recommend lifesize animal targets. Deer targets are the easiest to find.

Also I would talk to the PH and be sure his hunting style and area are suitable to iron sight hunting.

One place to hunt with iron sights would be the SAVE in Zimbabwe.

Plus you could have your girlfriend take a scoped 270 and a scoped 375 H&H.

Also if you book a Safari for a longer period of time, it gives you more days to hunt your self into a position to make a good shot with the iron sights.

Thanks all for the input thus far. I could have a change of heart once I get over there, but I don't mind the thought of passing on trophies. A great excuse to get back and as I said I'm young. My biggest concern, and this is one I'll have to answer for myself, is can I shoot well enough to be comfortable with expectations of a clean kill?
I bird hunt much of the time in areas with no birds-I gladly go out those days knowing that it is a walk in the woods with my dogs and a shotgun. There are similarities in handicap with an iron-sighted rifle, in that when I carry a 28ga, I have to be selective w/ my shots. Difference is that I'll chance dropping a leg on a bird, but I won't take iffy shots on any bigger game. . .
Getting away from my personal position, what do you (or what do you think others) do with these classic unscoped mediums? I cringe when I see an original Rigby that has had a sidemount, etc put on it at some point in the past. . .

The simplest and most effective solution is to do what was done in the glory days of safari. get a bolt mounted aperture sight that can be regulated and wound down for ordinary close work with the aperture wound up for the shots out to 200 yds or so. They are an amazingly accurate sighting system and if you want to retain the origionality of the WR then a replacement cocking piece with the aperture mounted so the origional can be replaced will do the trick.The bolt mounted aperture was an origional feature of the 'best'guns and in tandem with the express sights makes a practicle 200-250 yd rifle and will suit the 318 nicely. Have at it and leave the scope at home. I like your style and hope all goes better than your expectations.



Von Gruff.

vagrouser, your going to hunt. I do believe you enjoy the hunt as much as the kill. Stay who you are and take your classics to Africa and hunt. You will enjoy every moment because you will be hunting the old way...classic. Ask Harry Selby his opinion. You might enjoy his reply.
Good hunting,
David

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Dog:
I like your battery and I like your style. Do as Wink says, and also book plenty of days for the safari, so you can take advantage of opportunities, given the self-imposed limitations. Enjoy!

Mad Dog

My thoughts exactly, have a great adventure IMO you will have a much funner time in the field with this battery. I quit taking scopes to Africa three years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by vagrouser:
Hi everyone,
Looking for your collective input. . .
Over the last couple of years I've done a little trading and put together a pretty classic 2 rifle battery in anticipation of my first African hunt in 2011. The first is a Westley Richards 318 bolt, the second a Jeffery 450/400. Problem? Neither are scoped and I refuse to consider modifying either of these open-sighted rifles.
I'm still young with great eyes and grew up shooting iron sights, but the limitations are obvious. Intended quarry will be buffalo and a smattering of PG; haven't decided on where yet. My tentative thinking is to have my GF bring my scoped M70 in 270 totalling 3 rifles between us. Seems a shame to not bring the WR and figuring I could likely pull off a couple shots with the iron sights. An unscoped medium bolt rifle in this day in age probably isn't the most practical thing going; what are you guys doing who own these classics and don't want to mess them up by scoping? Any input on my choice of calibers?
Much thanks,
Bill

I know a guy that was in buffalo country, walking along with his 318 WR, and damn near got killed by a buff.

vagrouser

Once upon a time I went to Alaska on a caribou hunt.

I took my ironsighted 450/400 3 1/4" British double rifle.

When I pulled it out in camp the guide said "Don't you have anything with a scope?"

I said "No". He then asked, "How far can you shoot with that thing?" I replied "30 or 40 yards".

He got this sickining look on his face....
Then I said, "I heard you were a pretty good Guide, and could get me close."

He looked at my hunting buddy and said "What do you have?". He replied he had a 300 Mag. Guide said, "Then you [300 Mag Guy] shoot first."


The rest of the story is the 300 Mag Guy missed his first shots....

I killed 2 really nice caribou, one at 85 yards and one around 150/175 yards.

I had much more fun and the trophies mean much more to me taken with my Double Rifle.

I took a Westley Richards double .450/.400 and a Winchester Model 1895 in .405 to Tanzania at the age of 60. The unscoped rifles (and my old eyes) did limit my opportunites, but added to the excitment of the hunt.

If your are going to be hunting elephant, I can't see a reason to ever have a scope since you'll be (or should be) shooting inside 25 yards. For for buffalo, it is sometimes quite nice to have good optics to pick out the right buff in a bunch at 60 yards or so. Different strokes, I guess.

I'd get my girlfriend to bring a scoped .375 H&H. It will have the ballistics to shoot plains game at over 200 yards, is DG capable (which a .270 isn't) and if the GF wants to hunt some, is not punishing.

Will: was that Francois who got terribly gored in the face at Omay? I think he had a .318, didn't he. I met him a few months after the incident and he was still recovering.

Here are my thoughts. I too love the classic British rifles but I have come to the conclusion that I don't have a spot in my active hunting rifle collection for a rifle without a scope unless it is a very large bore elephant rifle.

I now only buy and go after rifles built in the 1950s or newer with scopes. I want my rifles scoped and I don't want to destroy an old classic.

Having said all that on my recent safari in Botswana I took 7 animals I'd say 4 of them could have been taken no sweat with an open sighted rifle. Two of them would have been maybes as they were in the 150-200 yard range and my Springbuck would have not been possible as it was slightly longer then 300 yards.

My concern would be with losing wounded animals because you weren't able to place the shots exactly right, that can get real expensive real fast.

I like your style but I was not willing to bring an inferior hunting tool to Africa.

I shot this black wilderbeast with ironsights at aprox 175 meters..
The thing is with ironsights, one have to practize a confidence in the rifle, in one self + being a good judge on distance. Shooting at live animals makes every count. Shooting at objects, missing doens`t "hurt" that much.
I will for sure use open sights more, next time in africa.

In 2006, I took my 450/400 double and a Vickers .318 W.R. to Tanzania. While my double was iron-sighted, I had fitted a correct vintage sidemount for a scope on the .318. I was glad I did, my eyes are not too happy shooting irons anymore. If your girlfriend brings a scoped .375, you have everything you will need if you find yourself at a disadvantage with the irons. I figured that I might only have one chance to go to Africa and I was unwilling to risk passing up shots, but because it was a wet year with lots of cover, my longest shot was 120 yards. What ammo are you taking? I used handloads with Woodleighs in both rifles and had good luck with them.

Thank you all for the comments, tips and anecdotes. Reading your own stories has made me want to hijack my own thread. . .
I bet many of you have been down a similar path at some point in your lives. For me, I grew up going to the range every weekend and hunting a few times a season with my dad as a kid. Sad, but this was near D.C. so every duck or deer hunting trip was a planned event and something we both looked forward to for weeks ahead of time. By late HS and college I had moved on to different things and it wasn't until my mid-twenties that I got back into shooting/hunting. Unfortunately, my dad had developed pretty bad Alzheimer's by then so I was mostly going solo. I started out reading the usual hunting mags again to 'catch up', but I didn't like the commercialization of the sport, or all the gimmeckry. Growing up, my dad had the same Filson gear since getting out of the Marine Corps and shot the same antiquated A-5s and old M70s. I was lucky enough to be able to live for a few years in AZ and then came back to VA. In both places I sure had a leg up on him being stuck near the city-I could and do go out after school/work a few times a week. Keep waders, dog collars, rods and a shotgun in my truck depending on the season and it is mostly about just getting outdoors for me. Haven't found the need or want to buy a hunting mag or a "new" piece of equipment in years; easy not keeping up w/ the latest trends when you're shooting classic guns. Figured I scrimp and get those things now so I could have the pleasure of putting mileage on them myself as I get older. For me, a big part of it, too is the allure of a time and place that is harder to find nowadays. To my mind, whether talking about hunting Africa, or elsewhere, it is about distilling things down to a basic level and being part of this long tradition.
A long-winded way of saying that I'm comfortable with this self-imposed handicap of using old rifles and iron sights. My GF and I are planning to go to SCI or the DSC convention (she's from TX). As we get a little closer, I'll post back asking for some recs on good areas and outfitters based on my requirements. In the meantime, if any can suggest some good first-hand experiences w/ tented walking safaris, I'd be much obliged. . .
Cheers,
Bill

I really don't use many scoped rifles, one 308 and I have a G&H sidemount on a pre64 375H&H I own.
Obviously Africa is quite different, but I had hunted deer and elk for many years with scoped rifles. After awhile, I, (me personally, not knocking anyone else!) found that the challenge wasn't there much anymore. I could set up with a good rest at 200+ yards, wait for an animal to cross the opening I was watching, pull the trigger and the animal was dead. I eventually took up handgun hunting, open sight of course, and whereas my success ratio went way down, I much more enjoyed the challenge of the stalk which I think is the biggest part of hunting.
I hope you take both the rifles you plan to take and have a great time. A good set of open sights is far underated IMHO. Practice a lot and let us know how it went!

The best practice you can get with your ironsighted rifles is to hunt pigs with them.

It will boost your confidence with your rifles.

Book your hunt in bush veldt areas. Shooting there is relatively close, max range about 150 yards. Much of Zimbabwe is close cover shooting and I have only taken one animal there out of over 200 at over 125 yards. Just match the cover type you hunt to your ranging ability.

465H&H

Good thoughts. I started carrying a rangefinder in my gamebag, and when I'm out hiking to give myself more practice estimating distances. I guess now everyone (PHs) have these so it isn't that necessary a skill, but can't hurt. I remember getting pimped by one of my friends on his farm-tough thing to do if you're not looking at known distances all day.
Bill

Well, my original take-down Westley in .318 has ramp sight, a bolt peep, and claw mounted scope, .....built that way 94 years ago, ......I have all its history.
So, if you had a scope properly mounted in the "classic" fashion, you could still be "classic"!
But relax, go for the peep and premium bullets and you'll be in fine shape for the hunting.

vagrouser,

You have all the mental ingredients for a GREAT hunt there.....

There are guys who come here with nothing but a bow and have success, so why should iron sights be too much of a limit?

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
A good set of open sights is far underated IMHO. Practice a lot and let us know how it went!

Agree.

When I started animal shooting in the 1960s, scopes were not real common in Australia. Common guns were 303, 303/25 and 32/20. Shot the shit out of everything with open sights. When we used open sights spotlighting we had a white chalk line down the barrel and the light behind us. Scope is different, you don't have the light behind you.

With open sights, sight in and also practice on objects, not paper. Take a 6 o'Clock hold, not aim at some thing like you do with a scope.

Growing up with perfect vision ,I had no difficulty hitting at distance with irons.

I continue to love rifles unencumbered with scopes, though almost exclusively those I own have peeps of some form , agreat benefit for my over 50 eyes. ( some are cocking piece items like Von Gruff's)

I do think overall optics are more precise for most hunters, but I still love my classics with irons.

where I have hunted in africa shots over 150 yds have been rare, so, if you are accustomed to using open sights you should do just fine.