quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

If you spent some time and effort trying to learn...you might change your mind.

One word....Wow.

That said, this lion aging problem reminds me that several years ago there were areas in Alaska and Canada that had age restrictions on sheep. Some areas eliminated the restriction and found that FEWER sheep were killed without the restriction than with it. It seems that with the legal restriction people were shooting their "legal" ram, retrieving it, realizing that it was a year too young, burying it on the hill, and shooting ANOTHER ram that was actually legal in order to avoid any legal trouble from the first ram.

That is not to say that a PH or game scout would necessarily allow this sort of thing in Africa with a high profile trophy like lion, but the age restriction certainly does open the door to corruption. Of course, I know it is difficult for most of us to imagine corruption in Africa right? Maybe I am a cynic, but I always picture game scouts or parks officials getting rich off of rules that are, in most circumstances, difficult or impossible for clients or PHs to comply with.

On another note, I agree that with the age restriction the ONLY way to fairly price lion hunts is as described above with Buff trophy fees and then a larger trophy fee on the cat. I like pricing structures like this anyway as it certainly inspires confidence when the PH is willing to put some skin in the game! Failing that, hunts start to look pretty fraudulent when the same lion on quota is sold half a dozen times and no one sees anything that makes the age restriction!

Pics updated in original post.

Way to go Thierry!!!
Congratulations on one heck of a lion brother!!!
Well done...

Fantastic Lion! Well done all. Very good call without having asked him for his ID or drivers license..
Well done again!
Leon

What a Beast

quote:

Originally posted by Thierry Labat:

quote:

Originally posted by mboga biga bwana:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Imagine turning down a lion like that because the light which was good enough to shoot was not good enough to "age" and then have him wonder off to never return on your 24 days $2000/day hunt that you had been saving all your life for!!! I would be a pissed client!

So true

Buzz has a very good point here. The finances involved in a lion hunt puts a lot of pressure on both PH and client, so I was thinking why not charge a buffalo rate for a lion hunter for 21 days and should the lion hunt be successful then up the lion trophy fee to make the difference. This way if " the right " lion doesn't show up it's not as much of a financial loss. I know some people are going to say, well that's hunting, which it is, but just saying!!!!

I'd like some thoughts on this! Would this be a more attractive way of selling a lion hunt or not?

P.S
The trail cam photos have been taken on the hunt I'm currently on. I'll keep those interested posted on the outcome. Thanks

Thierry.

Hope all is well with you. Your pricing suggestion is essentially what Andrew Baldry and I agreed to in 2012 for the Royal Kafue hunt. The day rate was kept at a level you would expect to pay for a Leopard hunt but if successful on Lion the day rate went up. Essentially the same as placing a very high trophy fee on the Lion.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by FishN4Eyes:

Here is a picture of the lion and a few of the skull and teeth. Please note this is the same lion from the trail cam pics previously posted.

I believe Thierry should have the lion aged soon but it'll be interesting to hear thoughts on the age before we know the factual info.

I'd hate like hell to be a PH having to make these decisions and I'd be damn happy I had one as good as Thierry Labat at making them.

Here you go:

With him just loosing the canine ridge on one and its presence intact on the other...I would imagine he is a very late 5 or just coming 6.

quote:

Buzz has a very good point here. The finances involved in a lion hunt puts a lot of pressure on both PH and client, so I was thinking why not charge a buffalo rate for a lion hunter for 21 days and should the lion hunt be successful then up the lion trophy fee to make the difference. This way if " the right " lion doesn't show up it's not as much of a financial loss. I know some people are going to say, well that's hunting, which it is, but just saying!!!!

I'd like some thoughts on this! Would this be a more attractive way of selling a lion hunt or not?

Yes Sir!

I think the best and fairest solution is to slash male lion quotas drastically, especially in areas where the quotas are just too high. Of course this raises the question of whether the local wildlife authorities have the lions best interest in mind and are looking at a long term strategy as opposed to a short term one! If lion numbers are too high in some areas then females should be offered on license.

BTW...Nice CLEAN images Thierry
Excellent!!!

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
I think the best and fairest solution is to slash male lion quotas drastically, especially in areas where the quotas are just too high. Of course this raises the question of whether the local wildlife authorities have the lions best interest in mind and are looking at a long term strategy as opposed to a short term one! If lion numbers are too high in some areas then females should be offered on license.

They have way too many on Sango which is where i presume the pictures came from. On my last safari there, I saw more lions in a week than I did in my last 63 days in Tanzania.

Well done guys on an awesome lion! Thierry- well done for making a decision and shooting what looks like an awesome lion and having a happy client as thats what it really is all about!

It will be interesting to see what " the experts" say as to how old it was. I shot a lion lately that we all thought was 6 plus and the "experts" told me it was 4 which under the new system would have resulted in cut quota and it was as good a lion from the Valley that I have ever seen!

Would Love to see pics of that Lion Buzz

I had a PH turn a Lion down in the Timbavati this year that I Know for a fact is over 7 years old,

His client Left disapointed with out shooting his Trophy.

Ph said Lion was not Hairy enough,

Aging a Lion is not a sure thing but when you know its a good Cat, give the client his Trophy he has worked hard for

will see if i can get a pic of the Lion he turned down

JK

quote:

Ph said Lion was not Hairy enough

What a ridiculous statement.

Great Lion Thierry whatever the age. In my book if he is mature and singular then he is fairgame.

Agree with you Andrew,I sell my Lion in Timbavati on a Basis of very Low day rate and High Trophy Fee, now more than half way through the season I need to find another client because of that Outfitters actions,

JK

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
Agree with you Andrew,I sell my Lion in Timbavati on a Basis of very Low day rate and High Trophy Fee, now more than half way through the season I need to find another client because of that Outfitters actions,

JK

What you need to do is bring the original hunter back and get him the lion he was cheated out of by an incompetent PH.

I did offer it to Client, unfortunately Outfitter is to involved,

I have given him a dead line to decide, now I have a client who will come end of August to try his luck

Reg

JK

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
Agree with you Andrew,I sell my Lion in Timbavati on a Basis of very Low day rate and High Trophy Fee, now more than half way through the season I need to find another client because of that Outfitters actions,

JK

What you need to do is bring the original hunter back and get him the lion he was cheated out of by an incompetent PH.

The whole scenario in South Africa is fucked up.

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
I did offer it to Client, unfortunately Outfitter is to involved,

I have given him a dead line to decide, now I have a client who will come end of August to try his luck

Reg

JK

Tom H told me that you chaps identify the Lion and pull in a client to shoot it? Not sure about the luck bit? Please explain.

Saying you can't tell well enough from the trail cams so therefor you must study them physically from a blind does not suit many areas. In the SVC and most wild hunting areas you either shoot the lions in low light conditions or at night where you do not have the luxury to asses for long periods in daylight like it's a canned lion.
Often the best look you will get of the lion you intend to hunt is off the trail cameras. From this you must go on what the so called pro's suggest as indicators of age such as mane in front of ears, scars etc etc. From this make an educated decision as best you can and go from there.
Well done guys on a beautiful cat.

Perfect point Neil. There are very few places in Africa where one has the luxury to study a cat in the broad daylight with - as we have seen on TV - a super powered spotting scope.

I'd say more than 75% of the lions shot in the Save are at night, some by light and some by the moon. If PHs and lion hunters bypass the limited opportunities to shoot when these lions present, we might as well quit hunting them. You have to make the best decision you can based on the best AVAILABLE information and take the opportunity the lion gives you IF he gives you that opportunity.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
Agree with you Andrew,I sell my Lion in Timbavati on a Basis of very Low day rate and High Trophy Fee, now more than half way through the season I need to find another client because of that Outfitters actions,

JK

What you need to do is bring the original hunter back and get him the lion he was cheated out of by an incompetent PH.

The whole scenario in South Africa is fucked up.

Absolutely and utterly.

Andrew,

To you the only wild Lion hunting in your eyes is the pure way you think you do it, to say Lion hunting in South Africa is fucked up just shows how closed minded you are to what we have to offer as far as wild lions are concerned.

The Timbavati is a 60 000 hectares open system with the greater Kruger Park,

What Tom would have told you is that we know what our Lion Population and Dynamics are and we know which Lions fall within the parameters of the Hunting Protocol of lone Males over 6 years of age.

We do not identify a specific individual and drive around see it and shoot it, this is just your perception as an individual who has no interest in hunting here,

Out of the last 6 Lions we have taken, we had only known 2 of them; the other 4 were nomadic males we had never even seen before the hunt.

This is a 21 Day tracking safari and we only hunt in Daylight hours with no baiting allowed at all.

On this last Safari it was actually a well-known Botswana Ph. and Outfitter not even a South African,

They saw a Monster Lion and followed him for 14 days without getting a shooting opportunity,
(Client was over 70 and could not ever get into position quick enough)

When they found the other male which was not as majestic as the one they were following the Ph. turned it down,

Wrong move as the client did not get his cat,

So to generalise that all South African Lion hunting is for the shits is your own opinion,

I have hunted Zambia many times over the Years and taken 4 Lions there,

All between 4 and 6 years old, and all out of blinds on Bait

Most of the client that have taken a Timbavati Lion have hunted all over Africa, and other than West Africa they rate it above any experience they have had sitting being a blind.

JK

For those of you who may be interested, I sent trophy pictures and trail cam pictures to some lion experts of this paticular lion and asked them their opinion. The expert, namely Paul Funston advised me that this was a 4ish maybe 5yr old lion. I agree it's probably wiser to underage than overage, but I thought it was a ridiculous estimate that this lion be 4ish!! Anyway, I then sent them photos of the skull and teeth, once skinners had cleaned the skull and asked same experts if they still thought the lion was 4ish? I have not heard back from them for over a week!!! All I'm trying to point out here is that although we will never know the exact age of this lion, it is difficult to make a judgement on photos alone, which by the way, is the way our lions in Zim will be judged for the most part by the experts who will then advise if our quota should be cut/increased or remain the same!
I do believe that the system in place definatley makes the PHs who care take more time in deciding whether they think it's the right lion or not!!
At the end of the day, I think it's more important to get the quota right. If your quota is set right for an area, then over time there will be lots of old lions!

Thierry- I totally agree with you that the "age restrictions" makes a PH think twice which a good thing. I also agree that in the end, like I said many times before, and got shot down in flames by a few prominent members of the LCTF, that IF the quota is correct for the area then we will get to be shooting old lions with out having to go to such extraordinary lengths of trying to age them in the bush which has proved to be virtually impossible anyway ( despite what some from the LCTF and the "experts" may say!).To achieve this though the lions have to be on optional quota also and not fixed- something Parks promised us this year but not surprising when the quota came out they were on fixed!

Regards the "experts" we also got Mike Jines cat "aged" by Paul and we had the same answer that it was 4 years old! That would have been negative points for us.

Realizing that if what we thought was as good a Valley lion would result in us been penalized we feel that possibly the "experts"research had been done in areas that are not comparable to the Zambezi Valley.

As a result we went through alot of time and effort trying to get their organization to meet with fellow guides that have proof of ages ( in pictures etc) of Zambezi Valley lions in their areas (namely Stretch Ferriera, Nick Murray and Norman Monks).

Nick and Stretch actually submitted pictures to them only to be told that the pics were "not sufficient" and despite Nick and Stretch been in Harare no one from their organization bothered to even pay them a visit!

Considering what is at stake here with regards to the lions , lion quotas and monies generated through hunting I thought that that was a pretty poor effort from them! The fact that Nick and Stretch have been based in Mana pools for many many years and know ,and have pictured, pretty much every pride and nomad lion in the park would surely make them an essential source of info on aging Zambezi Valley cats. As for Norman Monks who was the warden of Mana pools for a dozen or so years and who had done a thesis on lions there- not to engage him is crazy and makes one wonder just how seriuos they actually are!

Bottom line- get lion quotas correct and put them on optional quota only. Have lower daily rates and exaggerated trophy fees and before long we will get to be taking the correct amount of lions with out all this fuss!

quote:

Originally posted by Thierry Labat:
The expert, namely Paul Funston advised me that this was a 4ish maybe 5yr old Lion.

If these are the experts who will determine the way forward for your Lion hunting -- good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by FishN4Eyes:

Here is a picture of the lion and a few of the skull and teeth. Please note this is the same lion from the trail cam pics previously posted.

I believe Thierry should have the lion aged soon but it'll be interesting to hear thoughts on the age before we know the factual info.

I'd hate like hell to be a PH having to make these decisions and I'd be damn happy I had one as good as Thierry Labat at making them.

Here you go:

With him just loosing the canine ridge on one and its presence intact on the other...I would imagine he is a very late 5 or just coming 6.

Hi Lane,
I have copied word for word parts of a 32 page document given to us on Sango to use as a guideline on determining the age bracket of lions by looking at its skull and teeth. I would also like to add that it's only for the Kruger type lions. Not sure if this would work for TZ, Zambezi, Botswana etc. I'm a rookie, but really trying to learn!

3-4yrs This group is characterized by having a complete and fully erupted dentition. The first signs of wear may just be visible on the tips of some incisors, canines and possibly pre-molars. The enamel ridge running down the distal side of the canines is often irregularly chipped

5-6yrs Canine and incisor wear apparent, as is that on the tips of the highest cusps of P3 and P4, while the cusps of P2 and P3 (bottom jaw) show little or no wear. No exposed pulp chambers visible on incisors while the distal enamel ridges of all canines are chipped along most of their length. Teeth are generally white, while first signs of yellowing may be visible on the cheek teeth.

7-9yrs All teeth, except sometimes P2 show some wear. Incisor and canine wear obvious, with exposed pulp chambers, particularly on top incisors. Distal enamel ridges of the canine worn flat. Yellowing of teeth noticable.

So if I go by the above information, I would personally call this paticular lion between 6-7yrs, but not quite in the 7-9 bracket. My opinion of course.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this discussion. Happy hunting

Hi Theirry,
That lion has a classic mouth of a late 5 or early 6 and fits into the classifications you just posted as such very nicely.

A six year old lion will rarely have any ridge at all along the back of the canines on any. Your lion is in the process of loosing the last bit (ie: late 5 to early 6).

Above 6 almost all lions will have much more wear on the incisors and will have "usually" lost at least one.

Above 6 the canines will almost always have much more wear on the tips. His are actually pretty sharp.

His teeth in general are really healthy overall which says usually less than 7.

So...everything about his mouth says less than 7. With some canine ridge being left on that one tooth...tells me he is a late 5 or early 6. Which is certainly a harvestable age esp in the Save. Nice lion congrats. If you bring the skull or one of the PM2's with you to DSC...we can x-ray it and compare it to known aged measurements and others I have on file. All on me of course!