Eterry knows what he is talking about.

A lawyer isn't going to do you much good at this point. Do call the dealer you bought it from and establish rapport with them. Do call GSI/Merkel and get the ball rolling at that end. And try to talk to a Detective at the department where the gun was reported stolen preferably the one the case is assigned to.

All the scenarios mentioned are possible. There is one more. Perhaps a dealer reported it stolen because of a paperwork boo-boo. ATF comes in and does a detailed inventory and checking of the books. 17 guns are not accounted for. Dealer says 'they must be stolen'. ATF tells them a police report is necessary.

This indeed happens. There is an area gunshop that I know has done this with dozens of guns that were probably their paperwork boo-boo. Pity the poor fool that walks into Customs or tries to enter Canada with one of them.

I bought a rifle via Gun List that proved to be stolen. The 'dealer' in North Carolina who advertised it bought it a couple days after it was stolen and sold it to me. I did everything legally via an FFL. I was nearly arrested at the US/Canadian border. Fortunately my wife was able to fax me receipts and such.

By the way, I paid for that (stolen) rifle with a U.S. Postal Money Order. Neither the Postal Inspectors, the ATF, or local law enforcement could do me any good getting my money back from the dealer. He didn't even have a FFL. Gun List banned him from advertising for a couple issues. A lawyer in North Carolina laughed when I called him, pointing out that I could spend couple grand in legal fees and not collect a penny from the guy.

quote:

actually both sides of this battle are right.....the question really is.....what battles do we want to fight!

I say fight everyone that comes along then you don't have to ask that question.

quote:

Instead of the Spanish they now speak.

That comes from lack of hard-heads and lack of a bunch of Texas & Arizona Rangers that keep in good shooting practice by shooting a few illegal aliens once in a while like they used too.

And from lack of a general population that would tolerate that action.

Here's a brief update. It appears to be a serial number issue. The rifle was reported stolen on 8/6/03; my rifle was not built until 2004. My rifle went direct from the importer to the dealer three days before I purchased it. I've faxed a bunch of documentation to Customs and am waiting on an update.

I would contact the dealer I purchased the gun fron first, he has the original 4473 you filled out at time of purchase, he also has where he recieved the gun from in his aquisition book, all of this can be faxed to you in minutes. Should be pretty easy to straighten out from there by contacting the LE Agency that filed the stolen property report, because you now have proof of a legal purchase.

I don't think that legal purchase matters. If it was stolen, it was stolen! The issue is: "where is the check that a transferred item was stolen?". My FFL does a background check, but that's all. The check is not done at every transfer, as far as I know.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Here's a brief update. It appears to be a serial number issue. The rifle was reported stolen on 8/6/03; my rifle was not built until 2004. My rifle went direct from the importer to the dealer three days before I purchased it. I've faxed a bunch of documentation to Customs and am waiting on an update.

That should be relatively easy to clear up. It definately is a serial # SNAFU. Let us know what happens. Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Here's a brief update. It appears to be a serial number issue. The rifle was reported stolen on 8/6/03; my rifle was not built until 2004. My rifle went direct from the importer to the dealer three days before I purchased it. I've faxed a bunch of documentation to Customs and am waiting on an update.

I thought so. It isn't the same gun. Sounds like this is going to work out. Keep us posted.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I don't know ... I still think you stole it.

Lhook7,

Another possibility is Insurance Fraud ie the original rifle was reported stolen and a claim made on the insurance. By "accidently" misquoting the serial number on the Police report, the perp would be free to sell or use the rifle at some point in the future...

Regards,

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:
I don't know ... I still think you stole it.

It sucks, I was going to book this last minute elephant hunt in Botswanna that I saw advertised on AR this morning, but now I don't have my elephant rifle so I guess I'll have to pass.

Seems to me there's a major screw-up on their part. It's my understanding that any firearm report has serial # and caliber listed.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
It sucks, I was going to book this last minute elephant hunt in Botswanna that I saw advertised on AR this morning, but now I don't have my elephant rifle so I guess I'll have to pass.

Just steal another rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:
I don't know ... I still think you stole it.

It sucks, I was going to book this last minute elephant hunt in Botswanna that I saw advertised on AR this morning, but now I don't have my elephant rifle so I guess I'll have to pass.

Gotta watch those last minute deals.

Wendell, what are the serial numbers of those elephants? Wouldn't want to get nailed bringing back a stolen jumbo...

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
It sucks, I was going to book this last minute elephant hunt in Botswanna that I saw advertised on AR this morning, but now I don't have my elephant rifle so I guess I'll have to pass.

Just steal another rifle!

Is there the "rest of the story" yet?

This actually scares the hell out of me, as I am planning on bringing a .300 Win Mag as a light rifle, that I got from my late father. I do not know the history of this gun, however I doubt he would have gotten it from any shady source. The fact remains however that I do not know where this thing came from, and I'd hate to have them take it from me while I sort out the mess and the clock is ticking for my departure.

A) Is there a website we can go to to check the status of a firearm, either already in possesion, or for potential purchase?

B) Is a crime committed in the event the gun is actuaully reported stolen reagrdless of the accuracy of the report?

Scary stuff!

If you don't have a rifle, I have one you can use.

I have a 450/400 3 inch A. Hollis and Son double.


I have a Whitworth and a Model 70 Safari Express in 375 H&H.
If that's not enough I have a custom 404 Jeffery.

You can contact me at
rkmojo@aol.com
I live just outside of Houston.

quote:

Originally posted by N'gagi:
A) Is there a website we can go to to check the status of a firearm, either already in possesion, or for potential purchase?

B) Is a crime committed in the event the gun is actuaully reported stolen reagrdless of the accuracy of the report?

Scary stuff!

One would think the local Sheriff has access to the records of reported thefts.

Falsiification of reports is still a crime in my world

To follow in Rusty's footsteps ... I have a Push feed 375 that has a terribly rusted barrel (Only on one side though).

Our distinguished member "30ott6" Broke the stock in half and then taped it back together and tried to tell me it was that way when he borrowed it.

You can use this if "push" comes to shove and you need a good gun.

In all seriousness. I do hope you get this sorted out before you two leave. Please accept my congratulations again. Look forward to hearing about the devestating power of the 500 against Mbogo.

Rusty and Wendell,

Thank you very much for the generous offers. Well, to be quite honest, Rusty's generous offer and Wendell's offer.

I should have the double back this week, if not I have a model 70 .416 rem that is just begging to go to Africa.

I think there is a somewhat simple, but unfortunately not free, solution.

Hire an attorney (with Federal litigation experience) now.

The government can certainly impound items, but only under limited circumstances. The attorney can make them produce paperwork justifying the seizure of your rifle, which sometimes is enough to make them release it to you.

Hire one quick.

Garrett

Here is the story to date:

Thanks to GSI, the Merkel importer; Classic Arms, the dealer; and William Larkin Moore, the FFL I used to receive the rifle; I have been able to document the rifle's whereabouts since it was imported 0n 11/08/04.

I am lucky that my cousin is an ATF agent in Oklahoma and has been able to run down the police report from Washington, PA where the rifle was reported stolen on 8/6/03. The trooper in PA is telling my cousin that the stolen rifle is a muzzle loader.

Customs now has all thia paperwork and I am hoping to pick up the rifle this week. I do not believe it would have been resolved this fast without the help of ATF and my work with the importer, dealer, and FFL. I know that customs has not contacted anyone except the trooper in PA.

I'll post an update later in the week when I , hopefully, have the rifle back in my possession. According to ATF there is no reason for Customs to still be holding my rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by N'gagi:

A) Is there a website we can go to to check the status of a firearm, either already in possesion, or for potential purchase?

B) Is a crime committed in the event the gun is actuaully reported stolen reagrdless of the accuracy of the report?

Scary stuff!

Mark,

I don't know of a web site.

From my experience, the police reports are treated as accurate unless you can prove differently.

Sir,

I'm glad to see the ATF working with licensed dealers to help someone just as I am glad that it looks like you're finally getting close to a resolution. Dealing with the government can really suck sometimes, but it sounds like you're on the right track.

I think you have done an excellent job of documenting your lawful ownership of the rifle.

I still doubt you'll get it back without an attorney (unless you know someone at Customs).

Here's why: return of the rifle demonstrates unlawful seizure. Their attorneys will tell them that they are at risk for liability if/when they do return it. At this point, it's to their advantage to keep the "stolen" property. ("We do everything we can to protect the public from theft and violence, and we're just not going to turn over a stolen-potentially deadly-firearm to just anyone out there, no matter how much they may want us to!")
Or:
("We are so sorry for our mistake in not checking on the type of firearm reported stolen. I hope this didn't inconvience any plans of yours.")

Which one do you think you're likely to hear from an unaccountable Government agency?

Sorry if I seem unduly pessimistic; I've had similar problems myself.

Garrett

quote:

Here's why: return of the rifle demonstrates unlawful seizure. Their attorneys will tell them that they are at risk for liability if/when they do return it. At this point, it's to their advantage to keep the "stolen" property.

It appears that Lhook has all the necessary paperwork to show he is the lawful owner of his rifle and that the police report was in error. At that point, it seems to me they have a real problem if they do not give it back. They are depriving the lawful owner of his personal property. That act could expose the Customs folks to a charge of theft themselves. Add their refusal to return the firearm with the apparent absence of any specific authority to seize it in the first place as some posters have pointed out, and it could be a real mess for Customs. They would not want to go to court on this and have a judge find that they had exceeded their authority or had committed a crime.

It would be to the government's distinct advantage to return it as soon as possible. Holding it will only complicate their liability, knowing that they are holidng a firearm that is not stolen, and have been given proof of it not being unlawfully taken. Any lawyer that would give them the advice to continue to hold the firearm, will be giving them BAD advice, as based upon the documented facts. If that continues to be the case, then a lawsuit, along with injunctive relief seeking an order from the Court, on an order shortening the time for the hearing, in order to require the government to return it NOW, is definitely in order.

I think we'll see the answer on this question (will they return it quickly or not) very soon.

I'm still betting they won't give it back without an attorney being involved.

There is virtually no consequence to any government agency acting slowly, or not at all.

Garrett

I picked up the rifle this afternoon. Customs and ATF had cleared the rifle, but the trooper in PA still insisted my rifle was the stolen rifle despite all the facts proving it couldn't possibly be the same rifle. Customs kept the rifle a few extra days to re-run everything then released the rifle to me over the protests of the PA trooper. The Customs agent even came in on his day off to get the rifle back to me sooner.

Thanks again to everyone for your advice, support, and generous offers.

Lhook7,

Congratulations! Have a GREAT time on safari.

After the PA trooper, Mbogo may be a disappointment

How did a PA (Pennsylvania?) state cop get involved in this?

I'm glad it got cleared up in time anyway.

Great news!

Unbelievable about the PA trooper's position. Police report made on a rifle stolen a year before it was made, which rifle in question was a one barreled muzzle loader. Seems to me Barney Fife should now focus his attention on insurance fraud.

Wonderful news! Someone or some governmental entity ought to thoroughly investigate the PA trooper and his reasons for continuing to insist that that is a stolen rifle. Sounds like a dirty, stupid or corrupt (or all of the above) cop to me.

Lee, great news and good shooting.... AFRICA...

As for the trooper will have my son in law speakd to him he is one also... Maybe this guy is totally out of rifle knowledge...

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
Maybe this guy is totally out of rifle knowledge...

Mike,

I believe that is the case. I am wondering if maybe the rifle that was stolen in PA was a BPE double rifle and when the investigators are seeing "black powder" they are assuming muzzle loader. I decided it was not in my best interest to bring up this question as it could have further delayed the process.

heres to the safe return of your double. i sure would have been pretty upset about someone telling me i had stolen property. anyhow, cheers.

Congratulations!

Great news - I have been following this scary saga quietly and agree with some members above that you should spread your story as far and as wide as possible.

This kind of stuff is the thin end of the wedge, especially if we don't react forcefully.

I am not a U.S. citizen but I hope that all of you who are will agree that you cannot allow such abuses of your unique freedoms to go unanswered.

You guys don't know how lucky you are to have those freedoms - fight for them at every turn!!!

I am really glad you got your rifle back, enjoy your safari!!

Way to go on getting it back.

I am pleasantly surprised by the outcome.

Now you just need to go shoot something with it!

Garrett