A fellow member here PM'ed this suggestion.
He may take credit for the excellent prose if he wishes to reveal his identity.

The poll:

Question:
Do you believe that the long-term best interests of the shooting sports, African hunting, and all things sacred to riflemen the world over,
mandate that the long classified design of the .375/404 JS be revealed to sportsmen of all races, colors, creeds and religions?
And to that end, do you call upon and implore our benefactor and site host to, in the spirit of this holiday season,
release the proprietary information regarding this cartridge to allow for its worldwide proliferation?

Choices:
YES
NO

 

Of course I voted yes.

Another vote yes for the betterment of all civilization.

Not only would I like the specs released...I'd like one of our more fiducially blessed members to take pity on my poor soul and offer to re-barrel my M70 to this great caliber to save the masses, end sin and of course hunger.

I remain, Yr Obt Svt

Baxter IV

I'd vote no at the moment, but I'll vote yes in 2013 in order to not spoil the centenial of the 375 H&H.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Another vote yes for the betterment of all civilization.

+1

yes!

We all know it is a crusher and kills very efficiently. But I want also to say i that our host is a superb shot. He has proved, tested, and has the numbers to prove it.

Mike

I voted no because there was not an option for get your nose out of Saeed's butt.

I am sure it is a fine cartridge. So are a lot of others.

Bullet placement counts for more than anything else out there.

I wil bet you Saeed and anyone else cound have done exactly the same thing with any o fthe other fine "meduim heavies" extant.

Now back to my eggnog.

Someone pee in your eggnog? Happy Holidays anyway.

Nope not in the least.

Just love watching fanboys.

as I said Saeed can likely do everything on this planet with a simple 375 H&H or 20 other cartridges.

this year I may just do all my hunting with rounds introduced in 1912. so that looks like the 375 and 250-3000 Savage in a Model 99.

I voted yes, simply because from the stories that have appeared on the AR, I think it would be an interesting alternative to the 375 H&H I have been shooting for the past 15 years or so.

I am thankful that Saeed has provided this site where such topics can be discussed, but that in no way takes anything away from the fact that the 375 JS is an interesring alternative to the H&H round.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
I voted yes, simply because from the stories that have appeared on the AR, I think it would be an interesting alternative to the 375 H&H I have been shooting for the past 15 years or so.

I am thankful that Saeed has provided this site where such topics can be discussed, but that in no way takes anything away from the fact that the 375 JS is an interesring alternative to the H&H round.

Agreed, and I voted yes too. Right now I am wondering whether Saeed's cartridge better addresses extraction issues then does the .375 Weatherby. I'd really like to know what others think about this.

That is a sensitive matter for me, because I had a bolt seize up after the first shot on a cape buffalo, using a custom rifle in .375 H&H built on a LH Remington 700 action.

Regarding the .375 Weatherby, which others on AR say is a simpler substitute for the .375/404, Terry Weiland tells in his book that Robin Hurt owned a rifle chambered in .375 Weatherby that did exactly the same thing (in very hot sun and in Weiland's presence), which he attributed to the relatively straight dimensions of the blown-out cartridge case.

In my situation, I was able to pound the action open with the hilt of a knife (no rubber mallets handy), but Hurt had to take his back to camp and pour hot water on his action to open it. Fortunately, Hurt was merely firing a signal shot after a vehicle breakdown, since he of course had no PH backup.

I do not really know why I had this problem with a .375 H&H – maybe a combination of high temperatures, tight tolerances in a fairly new rifle and the particular load, which fed fine back in Illinois -- but it induced me to have Butch Searcy install his custom Model 70 CRF extractor and ejector on my 700 action. Whether that solved the problem, I am not sure, but it certainly made me feel better.

Yes.

quote:

Originally posted by Hasher:
I voted no because there was not an option for get your nose out of Saeed's butt.

Now back to my eggnog.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Someone pee in your eggnog? Happy Holidays anyway.

Mike,
As obsessed as Hasher is about brown nosing, I think someone floated something resembling a Baby Ruth candy bar in his eggnog.

HAPPY NEW YEAR 2012!

My typing mistake -- it is Terry WIELAND, not Weiland.

His report about Robin Hurt's .375 Weatherby and his analysis of older vs. supposedly "more efficient" cartridges starts at page 242 of Dangerous-Game Rifles, Second Edition.

I'm happy with my .375 H&H Magnum.

I don't believe in hero worship.

I voted no! My wife and kids are happy with the 375 H&H!

RIP, I asked this question of shootaway once.

Are you okay, mentally?

I voted no, BTW.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
RIP, I asked this question of shootaway once.

Are you okay, mentally?

I voted no, BTW.

MR,
Bite me!
HAPPY NEW YEAR 2012!

quote:

Originally posted by Anjin:

Agreed, and I voted yes too. Right now I am wondering whether Saeed's cartridge better addresses extraction issues then does the .375 Weatherby. I'd really like to know what others think about this.

That is a sensitive matter for me, because I had a bolt seize up after the first shot on a cape buffalo, using a custom rifle in .375 H&H built on a LH Remington 700 action.

Regarding the .375 Weatherby, which others on AR say is a simpler substitute for the .375/404, Terry Weiland tells in his book that Robin Hurt owned a rifle chambered in .375 Weatherby that did exactly the same thing (in very hot sun and in Weiland's presence), which he attributed to the relatively straight dimensions of the blown-out cartridge case.

In my situation, I was able to pound the action open with the hilt of a knife (no rubber mallets handy), but Hurt had to take his back to camp and pour hot water on his action to open it. Fortunately, Hurt was merely firing a signal shot after a vehicle breakdown, since he of course had no PH backup.

I do not really know why I had this problem with a .375 H&H – maybe a combination of high temperatures, tight tolerances in a fairly new rifle and the particular load, which fed fine back in Illinois -- but it induced me to have Butch Searcy install his custom Model 70 CRF extractor and ejector on my 700 action. Whether that solved the problem, I am not sure, but it certainly made me feel better.

Yep,
Wieland, is pronounced as in "Wee-wee Land," as in polluted eggnog imbibed by someone tonight.
Wieland's story about Robin Hurt's .375 Wby bolt sticking: page 146 of his book.

"When we finally reached camp, we had to soak the action in cold water, then pound the bolt handle with a mallet to get it open.
That is a lesson I have never forgotten."

That was a factory ammo problem.
Some of the older Weatherby factory loads were excessive.
They don't do that anymore, and their published velocities are not as optimistic as they used to be.
Good thing. They have also shortened the excessive freebore lengths too.
.375 Weatherby was re-speced by CIP in 2001.
Throat is now only .3700" long (2001) instead of .7500" (circa 1945).
Custom rifles with short throats and old excessive loads from the factory Weatherby ammo:
It happens.
Even factory Remington ammo for the .375 H&H was produced once with a hot load that pierced primers in .375 H&H.
I had that happen at the home range.
That was a lesson I never forgot, and that is why I handload,
and I know the throating of my rifle.

It was a Remington factory load with 300-grain Swift A-Frame bullets that was too hot.
Pierced the primer, and caused a sticky bolt lift.
Even with the massive taper of the .375 H&H.

I have also had a sticky bolt problem with the .416 Rigby case,
in a wildcat (.395 Tatanka) that retained the huge case taper of the original .416 Rigby.

The rifle had a rough chamber (not by my current gunsmith),
custom brass that was a little soft,
and custom reloading dies that did not size the base of the case quite enough.
It was "the perfect storm," coming together after two years wait on the brass
delivered two weeks before safari.
Loads were not excessive.
Embarassing.

The .416 Rigby has fully 0.021" of body diameter taper per inch of body length, from base to shoulder.
The 404 Jeffery has only 0.012".
The .375 Wby has all of 0.008".
Lot's of wildcats work fine with only 0.005".

Body taper is not the problem.
Many other factors may come into play.

Terry should not blame case taper for extraction problems.
Terry does have his agenda, however.

We will not know the taper of the .375/404 Jeffery Saeed until it is released to us masses.

But, you can surely load the .375/404 JS to .375 H&H or even .375 Wby ballistics,
either way, with pressures far lower than the standard .375 H&H chamber pressure.

Lest we forget, this is not about mere fawning hero worship, it is about recognition of the ultimate rifleman-hunter's cartridge:

Saeed's .375/404 Jeffery is the perfect cartridge for the big game hunter.
No other cartridge need apply.

Reasons:

1. All the bolt action rifles commonly used for hunting can only handle a cartridge case as wide in base diameter as that of the 404 Jeffery.
Mauser (standard or magnum M98), Winchester M70, Ruger, CZ, Dakota M76 African, etc., all are wide enough in the box and action bottom for nothing bigger.
Any cartridge bigger than a 404 Jeffery is just a "make-do" in a too skinny action, done by various gunsmithing tricks.
I challenge anyone to tell us of the rifle chambered for a .416 Rigby, 500 Jeffery, .505 Gibbs (or anything bigger IN BASE DIAMETER than 404 Jeffery),
that has a proper magazine box width by "Mauser Cosine Law."
Can't be done.

2. The minimum fully legal and effective bullet diameter with the best compromise for short and long range action: .375-caliber

3. Now we arrive at the .375/404 Jeffery by natural selection, and the perfect case is mated to the perfect bullet.
It beats the .375 H&H's mere adequacy by giving higher velocity with lower pressure,via greater case capacity.
It has no belted head, no rebated rim, and neck is longer for better neck tension on bullet,
and it is even slicker feeding than a 404 Jeffery due to the smaller bullet diameter slicking things up on the feed.
The 404 Jeffery has a minimum-taper case-body as it is, and gets its overall taper only from the long-sloping shoulder of about 8.5 degrees.
Add the way-long neck of about 0.620" length.
It cries out for "improvement."


So The .375/404 Jeffery of Saeed is arguably the best big game hunting cartridge possible.


A chicken in every pot, a .375/404 JS in every home!

I voted NO because some things are best never revealed. Examples are -

1. Who is Popeye's father?
2. What really pleases a woman?
3. How to shoot like Bwana Mojo?
4. How Aaron has time and money to hunt so many lions?

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
I'm happy with my .375 H&H Magnum.

I don't believe in hero worship.

I vote yes. Simple, because I would like one myself.

quote:

Originally posted by Scottyboy:

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
I'm happy with my .375 H&H Magnum.

I don't believe in hero worship.

Hero worship? Rubbish. No one is being a sycophant. This is all about good fun and just having another caliber available to hunters that has proven itself on the game fields of Africa. Geez lighten up.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Hero worship? Rubbish. No one is being a sycophant. This is all about good fun and just having another caliber available to hunters that has proven itself on the game fields of Africa. Geez lighten up.

Absolutely!
But not "just" another proven caliber ...
It is the most righteous cartridge to put in a bolt action hunting rifle.
January 1912 the .375 H&H was released to the world.
January 2012 begins the century of the best .375.

Forget the "hero worship " gag! Excuse me for confusing the small minded ones here.

The lazy anti "hero worship" excuse is indeed rubbish. Laziness. Intellectual dishonesty.

Some of the other excuses for voting against mere knowledge of the cartridge specs reflect this small minded, lazy, childishness also:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I voted NO because some things are best never revealed. Examples are -

1. Who is Popeye's father?
2. What really pleases a woman?
3. How to shoot like Bwana Mojo?
4. How Aaron has time and money to hunt so many lions?

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poopdeck_Pappy Any kid who watched Popeye cartoons can tell you that!
2. Ask her!
3. Practice, and use of proper equipment, such as the .375/404JS.
4. Ask him! And quit whining like a jealous child.

You two sure do get offended easily.

Rip likes to resort to name calling when a forum member disagrees. Yep, that'll win 'em over!


The Jeffrey founders are rolling in their eternal slumber at the mention. That's my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Scottyboy:
You two sure do get offended easily.

Rip likes to resort to name calling when a forum member disagrees. Yep, that'll win 'em over!


The Jeffrey founders are rolling in their eternal slumber at the mention. That's my opinion.

Ah ha! More intellectual dishonesty and laziness!
Resorting to the old "name-caller excuse."
Childishness again!
Where have I done any name calling anywhere above?
No made up name calls above.
Just the facts.

Quote me and point it out.
Hasher started the only "name calling" with his "fanboys" comment:

quote:

Originally posted by Hasher:

... Just love watching fanboys ...

Is that gay or just a weak line?
Again, that is no name call, just adjectives.

Wow!!!! How about the PTB's change the name of thi site from AR, to "The Site That Does Not Want To Promote Anything But Cartridges Developed Before 1940"!!

I am more than happy with my 375 H&H, but it is nice to see a sensible/practical chambering discussed.

I alway thought the premise of the AR was too discuss new developements in firearms and ammunition for hunters and shooters. Is it the fact that some of us merely suggested giving a little credit to Saeed for helping with the birth of this round? wonder if these same type arguements took place when they went to name the 35 Whelen?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Scottyboy:
You two sure do get offended easily.

Rip likes to resort to name calling when a forum member disagrees. Yep, that'll win 'em over!


The Jeffrey founders are rolling in their eternal slumber at the mention. That's my opinion.

Ah ha! More intellectual dishonesty and laziness!
Resorting to the old "name-caller excuse."
Childishness again!
Where have I done any name calling anywhere above?
No made up name calls above.
Just the facts.

Quote me and point it out.
Hasher started the only "name calling" with his "fanboys" comment:

quote:

Originally posted by Hasher:

... Just love watching fanboys ...

Is that gay or just a weak line?
Again, that is no name call, just adjectives.

Ahhhh anhother rason to dercy the demise of the Code Duello.

I have never said it is not an excellent cartridge.

I have however decried teh "fanboyism I se here regarding the owner, who by all I can read and decipher is a gentleman of the first order (unlike some here) who has developed a very interesting solution to a problem that may or may not exist.

Let's review:

MJines "Someone pee in your eggnog?

RIP "Mike,
As obsessed as Hasher is about brown nosing, I think someone floated something resembling a Baby Ruth candy bar in his eggnog."

RIP "MR,
Bite me!"

RIP "small minded, lazy, childishness also"

RIP "Is that gay"

The premise here is to discus. However it is apparent that some don't wish discussion simply blind alliegence.

I fear that is Saeed ever comes to a sudden halt all I will ever see from some fanboys is thier lower legs sticking out.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Wow!!!! How about the PTB's change the name of thi site from AR, to "The Site That Does Not Want To Promote Anything But Cartridges Developed Before 1940"!!

I am more than happy with my 375 H&H, but it is nice to see a sensible/practical chambering discussed.

I alway thought the premise of the AR was too discuss new developements in firearms and ammunition for hunters and shooters. Is it the fact that some of us merely suggested giving a little credit to Saeed for helping with the birth of this round? wonder if these same type arguements took place when they went to name the 35 Whelen?

I think he deserves a TON of credit. However is it the end all be all of hunting cartridges? I think not.

There are a large numbe rof cartridges extant that will fill the role nicely for that this round does. Having said that it is an interestign round that I may bear further examination once it's specifications are released. will I build one? Likely not as I have a 375, a 416 and a 470 and if I want a bigger hammer I would probably go with a 458 Lott.

Now don't think I don't like the 375 JS because it is a wildcat. My 416 is a Taylor. I also shoot 5 other wildcats and love them all.

quote:

Originally posted by Hasher:

Ahhhh anhother rason to dercy the demise of the Code Duello ...

... The premise here is to discus. However it is apparent that some don't wish discussion simply blind alliegence.

I fear that is Saeed ever comes to a sudden halt all I will ever see from some fanboys is thier lower legs sticking out.

Hasher,
Above the cartoon are your newest inputs here.
The quotations of others by you (unattributed and noncontextual, and not worth repeating, again and again)
only identify you as the sole "namecaller."
Well done Hasher!

I can only think of Hamlet:

"What! Frighted with false fire?"
and
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."


Back to the opinions of any possessed of "reason," please.

RIP

first off you are no gentleman. In fact you are a childish cad who hides behind mockery and his keyboard.

I did in fact just for you go back and add attribution on my quotes which are not actually out of context and they are mostly attributable to gasp...............YOU.

Now I double dog dare you to simply

Ignore me. It is just that easy.

If you can bring yourself to that I will send you a very nice bottle of SMS scotch. .

I am betting against it but we will see.

I voted no because a 404 will do it all. Having said that a fast 375 with excellent case design cannot be but a good option. Proprietry or otherwise it sure seems to work well.

Von Gruff.

Why the hostility? We are all just having fun giving each other the business!

As Hasher wishes, he is now the second member on my ignore list.
Not even shootaway deserves that.
Hasher asked for it, and he got it.
He even offered me a bottle of Scotch if I would do him that honor.
He can keep the Scotch.
My pleasure.
New Centennial! 2012

I voted yes--the specs should be disclosed-

That said: I have little if any interest in one.

I agree with Michael 458-have no use for a 375 anything- can't see anything it will do that a properly loaded 416 won't.

If i need something smaller ,faster and flatter then I drop to a 338.

Every body gets their own poison-thats the beauty of it all

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
I voted yes--the specs should be disclosed-

That is all that matters. Thank you, Cross L.

BTW,
Saeed said he would have a reamer sent to me by Dwight Scott.
That is too much generosity.
I would rather have just the information of the source of the reamer he uses, and permission to duplicate the exact specs of the reamer, for the masses.

The only two .375/404 Jeffery Saeed rifles known to exist in the world:

BTW, BTW, that rifle in the second picture below is close to 48" long.
(Ye Olde No. One Rifle, with muzzle brake, long since bobbed to 23" barrel,
and even Walter shoots well with it.)
So how wide is that "Outer Circle Award" winner below?

If you can get past the "noise,", there has actually been some most valuable information in this thread, at least to me.

Thanks, RIP, for your insights on hot factory loads, the .375 Weatherby and case taper issue. That is the first good explanation of what may have caused my own bolt sticking dilemma. Others including Barsness have written that they did not believe hot sun was the issue. Believe me, building a custom rifle to take to Africa and then having it jam is not a good feeling.

It also would seem to me to address as well the unlikelihood of any such sticking being a problem in the .375/404.

Honestly, I never dreamed that my own experience might have been a factory ammo problem., or I would have used the handloads I brought along. It has been a while and I would have to find my old loading journal, but I do believe that I did use Remington factory .375 H&H cartridges on that hunt. If those were overly hot loads, it could well have been the problem.

The Model 700 extractor eventually did pull out the case, but I theorized that a controlled round extractor and bolt would have had more camming power -- which is why I had Butch Searcy make the conversion.

Anjin,
Thank you.
You did good to upgrade with Butch Searcy customization.
I am also suspicious of the Dakota M76 African action having weaker camming power for extraction than a CZ 550 Magnum.
Maybe Saeed should upgrade his Dakota to a customized CZ 550 Magnum .375/404 Jeffery Saeed.

Here is the "chicken in every pot" rifle that all should have in their battery:

Rifle No. One: For 3.8" COL, .375/404 Jeffery Saeed chambering
*CZ 550 Magnum action with McGee reinforced box.
*CZ Kevlar stock by B&C
*Dan Lilja No.6 Sporter contour, fluted, stainless, 26" long, 1:12" twist.
*Ed LaPour safety.
*Timney trigger.