I owned a piece of shit Verney Carron that spent more time in France than it did in the field. I went back to my 404J as my carry gun, as it has always proved to be dependable and very accurate.
Recently, a buffalo was wounded, and the 577 failed to put it on the ground at close quarters. I am a great believer that the hunter should be offered every opportunity to finish his quarry. Although I had ample opportunity for a neck or high shoulder shot, I waited, and the 577 barked twice, which resulted in the buffalo coming in our direction, but not a charge. The bull veered into the second PH, who shot it twice with a 416 Rigby. I withheld my shooting in the event of a possible charge. In the end, the bull received 6 from the 577, 2 from the 416, and 1 from my 404 as it was going away. In addition, we had a problem with the brand-new Heym in the field, and the action failed when needed.

It was my conclusion that big bullets do not kill buffalo, and double rifles are simply fashionable and only offer two shots in the mix. Note that when the Buffalo turned, there was no time to reload the double, but the other PH and I had 6 in reserve.

Sounds more like a placement issue than a big bullet issue.

Not checking your rifle out completely before hunting has resulted in more failures than one can count.

What was the failure of the Heym? I’m assuming that was the clients rifle…

Opinions vary. I currently own 4 V-C's and owned 3 others in the past. I have never had a problem with any of them. I agree that shot poor shot placement sounds like the issue issue. And you had a problem with a brand new Heym. Sounds like operator error perhaps not being familiar with said rifle.

Folks,

Double rifles are disciple all unto themselves. Many double rifle shooter are far from proficient in this disciple and have practiced very little.

I don't think in Mr. Baldry's story that the big bullets were the issue but rather poor shooting and unfamiliarity with a very big double.

Mark

I've killed 1 black bear and 1 male lion with a 9.3x74R double rifle. A Chapuis.

Killed numerous elephants with a Merkel 500NE, VC 500NE, VC 577NE.

Killed numerous buffalo with those same rifles (Merkel, VC 500 and VC 577).

Killed a fair amount of plains game with that 9.3x74R as well.

I hit a buffalo bull a little far back with the 577 due to his standing at an odd angle for the first shot. My fault 100%. Resulted in a 2 hour follow up. He took quite a few rounds to bring to bag after that. I was glad to have that big double in my hands trailing him in close quarters in the thick jess.

Never had an issue hunting with the a double. But, I spent A LOT of time practicing with doubles. Both dry firing with snap caps and at the range, focusing on a quick reload and general handling of the weapon.

Doubles aren't like a bolt gun. They require a dedicated effort to become proficient with them. But then again, that's what makes them special. You can't just pick up a DR without giving thought to where you place your spare ammo and how you'll access it for follow up shots. I see guys putting spare ammo on a butt-stock mounted ammo carrier. That doesn't work, at least for me. But in the field after opening the ball game on a buff or ele isn't the time to figure that out!!

Personally, at this point in my hunting, I have little desire to hunt with anything other than a big bore DR and for that matter, little desire to hunt anything other than buffalo! YMMV however, and that's just fine!

I did not know the Mark Sullivan was your client...

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I did not know the Mark Sullivan was your client...

...Mic drop...

Nice one,Dogcat!

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I did not know the Mark Sullivan was your client...

Nothing to do with the type of rifle or caliber.

Simply bad shooting!

Bullet placement is the key.

Nothing else matters.

Doubles simply need lots of practice and because ammo is expensive, people don’t practice nearly enough
I figured this, double barrel 12 gauge and boxes of slugs and shoot the shit out of stumps in the mountains
Super good practice
And dry firing of double on targets in backyard

How many times have we seen here videos of utter idiots hunting with their hero, the most unprofessional idiot that has ever set foot in Africa, and miss or wound buffalo almost touching the muzzle?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Nothing to do with the type of rifle or caliber.

Simply bad shooting!

Bullet placement is the key.

Nothing else matters.

Sounds very much like a bad worker blaming his tools.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Nothing to do with the type of rifle or caliber.

Simply bad shooting!

Bullet placement is the key.

Nothing else matters.

The shots were all good, but none hit heart or bone. The bull bolted our way at 20 paces, which did not give sufficient time to reload the double. It ran into the other PH, who fired two quick shots from his 416 that turned the buff. Two more from the 577 put it down, but it then got back up, and it required two more to end the affair. I agree that the shots could have been more precise. Later, having cleaned the action (which I noted had been heavily greased), it has and continues to work fine.

Both Thor Kirchner and I had problems with the VC, which I believe was attributed to dust and fine debris collecting in the internal workings of the action. These are carry guns and do a minimum of a 100 days in the field per annum. The much older British doubles seem to be trouble free.

Earlier this year, when escorting a film crew, my 404 built on a Mauser action got covered in mud and I had to wash it off in a dirty puddle. It was gritty but worked fine.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Nothing to do with the type of rifle or caliber.

Simply bad shooting!

Bullet placement is the key.

Nothing else matters.

The shots were all good, but none hit heart or bone. The bull bolted our way at 20 paces, which did not give sufficient time to reload the double. It ran into the other PH, who fired two quick shots from his 416 that turned the buff. Two more from the 577 put it down, but it then got back up, and it required two more to end the affair. I agree that the shots could have been more precise. Later, having cleaned the action (which I noted had been heavily greased), it has and continues to work fine.

Both Thor Kirchner and I had problems with the VC, which I believe was attributed to dust and fine debris collecting in the internal workings of the action. These are carry guns and do a minimum of a 100 days in the field per annum. The much older British doubles seem to be trouble free.

Earlier this year, when escorting a film crew, my 404 built on a Mauser action got covered in mud and I had to wash it off in a dirty puddle. It was gritty but worked fine.

From your first post, it would seem non of the shots were good!

Otherwise the outcome would have been different!

quote:

The much older British doubles seem to be trouble free.

Ahh ... those were unique hand-crafted rifles which cost small fortunes; their actions are encased to air-tight proportions which will not be subjected to infiltration of sorts unless totally submerged in water.

I can safely vouch for the above as I took my double apart for the first time out of sheer curiosity since it came into my possession 30 years ago and it was clean as a whistle and as the saying goes: "curiosity killed the cat and satisfaction brought it back".

The modern machined doubles which in most cases can be bought over the counter cost a fraction of such rifles of yesteryear which are still being manufactured today with waiting times often around 3 years and more.

I wonder if any of you have seen the way they make them?

I was lucky enough to spend time at both Holland and Holland and Auguste Francotte in Belgium.

Every part is hand made by a craftsman.

Used to spend hours watching them.

quote:

I was lucky enough to spend time at both Holland and Holland and Auguste Francotte in Belgium.

I may not have had the privilege of touring Hollands but did have access to the Rigby workbenches through my good friend and owner Paul Roberts to understand the "man hours" which go into building these fine rifles by specialized craftsmen.

I am just wondering how long this dwindling trade will last.

A director of H&H was a friend of mine who used to visit Dubai often and stays with us.

I used to spend quite a bit of time at both the sho and workshop.

The director of Auguste Francotte was also a close friend of mine.

We used to travel to the US together.

I remember these discussions with Fairgame way back when, about carrying afield unloaded and Andrew advocating carrying a double not only unloaded, but with the action open.

See the photo in this discussion back in the day, showing Richard Bell Cross carrying the same VC double Andrew is referring to ... with the action open. Actually, there's some enlightening discussion in that thread that give insight to this new thread.

https://forums.accuratereloadi...741079961#6741079961

No wonder the double malfunctioned. It had dirt and debris in the action. There were a few warnings from other DR users that aren't around on AR any longer.

I wouldn't blame VC ... Just saying.

In all seriousness, shooting doubles is fun but needs practice and an "aptitude". I have seen a few folks shooting them that really struggle to get off a decent shot.
I was one of those people. I had a nice double but could not get the "knack" of it as I am a bolt guy, a pump shotgun gun or semi auto guy. I do not shoot O/U's or SxS's very well. I tend to jerk the second trigger and miss worse than with the first shot.

So, know what you do and what you do well.

I shoot a pump at skeet and trap and can make the shots needed...accurately. Same with clays....

Anyway, know yourself and your weapon...

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I remember these discussions with Fairgame way back when, about carrying afield unloaded and Andrew advocating carrying a double not only unloaded, but with the action open.

See the photo in this discussion back in the day, showing Richard Bell Cross carrying the same VC double Andrew is referring to ... with the action open. Actually, there's some enlightening discussion in that thread that give insight to this new thread.

https://forums.accuratereloadi...741079961#6741079961

No wonder the double malfunctioned. It had dirt and debris in the action. There were a few warnings from other DR users that aren't around on AR any longer.

I wouldn't blame VC ... Just saying.

You are quite right, and I was wrong back then and was told by others not to do that carry. The double in question was not open

quote:

I wonder if any of you have seen the way they make them? I was lucky enough to spend time at both Holland and Holland and Auguste Francotte in Belgium. Every part is hand made by a craftsman. Used to spend hours watching them.

I have. We were invited to visit the Krieghoff factory and saw both double rifles and shotguns being built. Lots of CNC machine work involved but even more hand fitting by craftsmen (and women) to build either rifle or shotgun. Especially interesting was the way double rifle barrels were joined together and “rough” regulated, done by a craftsman with a small gas burner, aligning barrels and securing by twisting wire around the barrels and soldering the barrels together. Very interesting.

i have the chance to visit chapuis factory at st bonnet le chateau where they were building the barrels and watched for hours the workers when i was really a kid, the actions and the stocks and even if not on par with some british of the previous centuries the masters of the art there where doing an amazing job and had no problems to properly fix older express there.

Here’s a link to the first in a series of Purdey gun making videos. Fascinating to watch. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=00orXhHJY8Y

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I remember these discussions with Fairgame way back when, about carrying afield unloaded and Andrew advocating carrying a double not only unloaded, but with the action open.

See the photo in this discussion back in the day, showing Richard Bell Cross carrying the same VC double Andrew is referring to ... with the action open. Actually, there's some enlightening discussion in that thread that give insight to this new thread.

https://forums.accuratereloadi...741079961#6741079961

No wonder the double malfunctioned. It had dirt and debris in the action. There were a few warnings from other DR users that aren't around on AR any longer.

I wouldn't blame VC ... Just saying.

You are quite right, and I was wrong back then and was told by others not to do that carry. The double in question was not open

it is a sad day when you are not learning and we are all learning or should.

We have many people here who love double rifles.

They bring them here to shoot, and frankly, I have not seen a single one who is capable of shooting it accurately under pressure.

It is a nostalgic thing, something I have never gotten into.

Many of them actually are afraid of shooting them.

Many times I have to sight the rifles for them.

Under normal hunting situations, at least in the ones I have been in, it is extremely hard to find a clear shot at an animal, at close range, as required by doubles and open sights.

In fact, on many occasions we hunt in places where one can hardly get a clear shot with a scope!

.

An interesting thread. I have and shoot a number of doubles - 450/400 Beesley, 470 and 375 Krieghoff, 9.3x74 Lebeau, 8x57 Wolff and I enjoy them all. Have taken ele, buff, hippo and steenbok with the 375 and a buff with the 470 iron sights at 100 yards with Mokore. And as has been said - practise, practise, practise!

When you look at day rates and trophy fees, then ammo is the cheapest part of the package! No excuse for not practising bolt or double.

Interestingly I am planning on taking my CZ 500 in 416 Rigby on my Sept buff trip. Have not shot it for a while and it needs some field time.

I used to manage an army clay ground near the NL boarder. We had a flush weekend once a year - 100 clays in 2 mins and 2 guns shooting. Top score was 87 clays. That taught you how to reload fast and furious without taking your eye of the target. Great fun and great practise!

.

A friend brought an old H&H double to shoot.

And as usual, he asked me to shoot it.

I called remember the caliber but it was one of larger Nitro Express.

Walter was with us.

He refused to shoot, so it was left up to me.

I loaded it, stood up, took aim and pulled the trigger!

CLICK!

I had no idea it was going to be a hang fire or a total dud.

Some of you have been to my underground shooting range, and would understand this.

I held the rifle to my shoulders, while both Walter and the owner ran off up the stairs!

After what I thought was enough time for a hang fire to last, I put the rifle down on the shooting table a left the room.

After a few minutes we knew it was not going to go off.

So I opened it and found the primer untouched.

It turned out the firing pin was broke!